"Welsh Highland Railway Developments & Progress"?

[Oldddudders]

Sorry to report that the festering row about who runs trains where on the wonderful Welsh Highland has been resurrected. Details on Barrie Hughes's excellent but unofficial site http://www.isengard.co.uk/#News

[PaulRhB]

Very sad that a few people are playing politics like this to get things then go back on the earlier deals on minor technicalites. Yes the WHR-FR needs to run it as a business but there do seem to be one or two up top who like pushing their weight around, this certainly isn't true of the operating staff though.

You'd have thought an offer to let them run even a limited amount of trains in the gaps in the timetable would have been better PR to at least show some willing.

I used to be a member of the 64co. (when I had more time on my hands to travel all the way to Wales regularly), at the time that the previous hostilities were going before rebuilding. We used to socialise with the FR staff and volunteers and none of us could see why they were playing confrontational politics then.

[S.A.C Martin]

Given my experiences of the Ffestiniog last year, this doesn't seem surprising anymore.

 

We've all got limited resources in preservation and we all need to work together. That they cannot, or will not, work with or help a fellow group of preservationists absolutely disgusts me on a level I never thought possible.

 

It's taken the best part of a year, speaking to those "in the know" and actually visiting the two railways myself that confirmed to me that neither party is particularly innocent in this feud, but the FR have gone too far now.

 

I really can't see that a few trains from the WHHR is going to constitute much competition in any event.

 

Dog in the manger...?

[Oldddudders]

Very sad that a few people are playing politics like this to get things then go back on the earlier deals on minor technicalites. Yes the WHR-FR needs to run it as a business but there do seem to be one or two up top who like pushing their weight around, this certainly isn't true of the operating staff though.

You'd have thought an offer to let them run even a limited amount of trains in the gaps in the timetable would have been better PR to at least show some willing.

I suspect the sums of money involved in the rebuilding mean that the FR "Business Plan" drives everything - including regarding the WHHR as lice in their hair, to be eradicated. In that respect, the recession can't be helping anyone with their income stream, and thus deeper trenches get dug. My impression from more than 30 years ago, gained from talking to people who knew a few on the FR at the time, is that FR's success has always been based upon a single-minded approach, and to the casual customer that has been seen to work. Turning off the enthusiasts and volunteers who are the lifeblood of the preservation movement seems, however, to be counter-productive in the extreme. All very sad.

[coachmann]

Weren't the WHR people down by Porthmadoc station against the new FR/WHR venture?

[Oldddudders]

Weren't the WHR people down by Porthmadoc station against the new FR/WHR venture?

It is a long-running and complex dispute. I think they (WHHR) knew the limitations of their own likely future expansion, and recognised early on that they risked being steamrollered by the FR machine. It is a shame that the two companies can't work together for the common good and, as PaulRHB points out, at grass-roots level there are probably plenty of FR/WHR people who would welcome doing just that.

 

There was a previous RMWeb thread on this in which many views were expressed. I just think it's bad for all concerned, and ultimately may mean less money being spent by punters overall, which is silly.

[Gwiwer]

I don't intend to embroil myself in a festering dispute about which I know little enough beyond what is published.

 

Where I suspect some of the drive is coming from is that the FR / WHR operation will have potentially set budgets and forecast passenger figures based upon opening the WHR throughout before now. That they have been frustrated in that, despite the line being notionally complete and a through train having run for test purposes, will be a festering sore and may be - along with the general economic downturn - affecting their ability to meet budgeted targets.

 

In business I would push for maximising profit; that includes keeping onside the largest proportion of my workforce and customer base. There has long been a grey area between the hard-nosed requirement to make money and the purely voluntary nature of the heritage railway workforce in general. That is not confined to the FR / WHHR / 64Co or any other operation - it is across the board. And it is for those in the appropriate posts to direct events as they see fit and to live with the outcome. Neither is it exclusive to commercial businesses to make a profit; volunteer-run organisations with no paid staff can do so just as well.

 

Personally I was looking forward to a rail trip from Carnarfon to Porthmadog to Blaenau Fefstiniog this summer but it is not to be. That it will be possible soon enough is testament to the achievements in North Wales over recent years which includes the negotiations and agreements, sometimes reached only after years of bitter stalemate, between operations which (at the business level) choose to see themselves more as rivals than anything else.

[Torn-on-the-platform]

I'm sorry, but I don't entirely understand the situation.

What will happen to the WHRL's headquarters at Porthmadog? Is it to be swallowed into the FR/WHR running line or is it to remain?

Will the 'new' WHR still be able to run into Porthmadog (FR)?

[The Stationmaster]

Given my experiences of the Ffestiniog last year, this doesn't seem surprising anymore.

 

We've all got limited resources in preservation and we all need to work together. That they cannot, or will not, work with or help a fellow group of preservationists absolutely disgusts me on a level I never thought possible.

 

It's taken the best part of a year, speaking to those "in the know" and actually visiting the two railways myself that confirmed to me that neither party is particularly innocent in this feud, but the FR have gone too far now.

 

I really can't see that a few trains from the WHHR is going to constitute much competition in any event.

 

Dog in the manger...?

 

 

All a great shame but I think I can see what drives the FR's commercial fears - the WHHR sits near the NR station, has (I understand) a good museum content, and will offer something a bit different and rather more historically accurate in the way of a 'trip on the Welsh Highland' (albeit for a limited distance).

 

I suspect all this means that the FR fears abstraction of business/revenue at the Porthmadog end of the line and - as others have said already - fears that its business plan will be undermined. Which does seem a bit of a silly approach if it is correct that the WHHR were offering to pay for running powers .

 

Perhaps, hopefully, in time it will settle down to a much more adult and realistic business relationship between the two railways but alas that looks to be a distant prospect at present.

[renovater 1]

This has come as no surprise. The WHR/FR want rid of the WHHR as soon as possible, pure business i'm afraid !!

[number6]

Me not understand either! Have I got this right: that the connection through Porthmadog [paid I think partly with public money] is therefore unlikely to be used? Or have I mixed up my geography?

[Oldddudders]

I'm sorry, but I don't entirely understand the situation.

What will happen to the WHRL's headquarters at Porthmadog? Is it to be swallowed into the FR/WHR running line or is it to remain?

Will the 'new' WHR still be able to run into Porthmadog (FR)?

You are not alone in not "entirely" understanding the situation - that applies to most of us outside the immediate parties' top teams and advisers, including me. I think the WHRL Porthmadog site is secure, but they had hoped to run trips over the newly-reconstructed Welsh Highland route towards Beddgelert and Caernarvon. It is that aspiration which appears dashed by the FR decision. The FR-owned WHR services will reach Porthmadog in due course, having already moved/removed part of the WHRL trackbed in the approaches to the Network Rail crossing, which has hardly endeared them to WHRL. There may, I think, still be an interchange station between the two railways, but the WHRL would regard that as limiting their appeal - and hence income - compared with track access further north.

[S.A.C Martin]

This has come as no surprise. The WHR/FR want rid of the WHHR as soon as possible, pure business i'm afraid !!

 

Can't say I agree, at all.

 

If anything, getting people to go to both railways - and travel along both lines - will bring in better sums of money to both. If the WHHR - as they had, previously, offered to pay for paths along that particular stretch, then it can only be advantageous to the WHR/FR as it means the WHHR passengers will disembark at their stations and continue their journey on the "other railway".

 

It is notable that the most vocal people in each of the two groups are those who have for years purported a feud of sorts between them. At a time when they should be burying their differences, and working together towards a common goal - better tourism and preservation of heritage - that the WHR/FR has cut the WHHR off completely is a disgrace.

 

It being down to a business case is, I'm afraid, a complete red herring, and simply not true. Other lines in Britain work together for a "greater good" and have fantastic working relationships - that two lines so close together who have a common, shared history cannot is something that will impact on both of them in the future.

 

I already made my thoughts on the FR/WHR clear last year after a particular event on a WHR train. It was settled satisfactorily, but I am not convinced that the same would not happen again, particularly now.

[Gwiwer]

Don't get two separate issues confused.

 

The Carnarfon - Porthmadog Harbour line, which is structurally almost complete, cannot be opened to passenger trains until further road safety-related work is completed on the street running section which of course costs more money. The dispute between the Welsh Highland Heritage Railway, which has run a short length of line from their own station close to the "main line" one as far as Pen y Mount is different and does not relate to the street section.

 

Neither should the disagreements between the companies prevent the opening of the street section, and the through operation of passenger trains from Carnarfon to Porthmadog Harbour, in 2011 as is currently planned.

 

The "new" WHR has impinged slightly onto the established WHHR trackbed (as noted above) in order to get their line through the town and this has always given some people some cause for bad feelings.

[number6]

Sorted. I also had a little google and found the WHHR which is distinct from the WHR. Phew!

[mcowgill]

Me not understand either! Have I got this right: that the connection through Porthmadog [paid I think partly with public money] is therefore unlikely to be used? Or have I mixed up my geography?

 

The connection will be used when the WHR opens fully through to Porthmadog from Caernarfon, hopefully next year, that is not in doubt.

 

The issue in dispute is the access by the Welsh Highland Heritage Railway (who currently run from their station at Porthmadog opposite the Network Rail station to a point alongside the original WHR, all entirely to the north of the Cambrian standard gauge line) to the FR operated/owned WHR, in particular their proposals to run to and from Pont Croesor.

 

Think of it as something like access rights to Network Rail by an 'open access' TOC.

 

It appears that the statement was a draft unintentionally released by the WHHR and has since been withdrawn from the mailing list it was sent to, however it still remains on Barrie Hughes website.

 

I don't want to add any more or express any views as I know many of the people involved on both sides of the argument and as an appointed officer of the FRS there's always the risk that someone might take what I say as the 'FR point of view'. I can honestly say I know nothing more than anyone else and have kept the above to undisputed facts.

 

Martin C

[Talltim]

Make em both 'Open Access'

[renovater 1]

Can't say I agree, at all.

 

If anything, getting people to go to both railways - and travel along both lines - will bring in better sums of money to both. If the WHHR - as they had, previously, offered to pay for paths along that particular stretch, then it can only be advantageous to the WHR/FR as it means the WHHR passengers will disembark at their stations and continue their journey on the "other railway".

 

It is notable that the most vocal people in each of the two groups are those who have for years purported a feud of sorts between them. At a time when they should be burying their differences, and working together towards a common goal - better tourism and preservation of heritage - that the WHR/FR has cut the WHHR off completely is a disgrace.

 

It being down to a business case is, I'm afraid, a complete red herring, and simply not true. Other lines in Britain work together for a "greater good" and have fantastic working relationships - that two lines so close together who have a common, shared history cannot is something that will impact on both of them in the future.

 

I already made my thoughts on the FR/WHR clear last year after a particular event on a WHR train. It was settled satisfactorily, but I am not convinced that the same would not happen again, particularly now.

I don't agree either.But if it's not for business reasons then what else ? Spite ?

[S.A.C Martin]

I don't agree either.But if it's not for business reasons then what else ? Spite ?

 

I feel both parties have done nothing but hinder themselves in all honesty. Both in equal measure have acted or reacted badly, and when you consider the level of patience and that which isn't reported in the railway press, one can only conclude that a few selfish individuals from both sides are playing something of a power game with the two railways.

 

It is by no means one sided, FR/WHR vs WHHR, and in my limited knowledge of the two groups, it seems so much more could have been done over the years to not develop to the current situation.

[PaulRhB]

Thank you Martin, your carefully considered statement is far more representative of the majority of FR and WHR supporters I've known and met. I agree with several of the points made above about a minority of empire builders and just think it's a shame that this has flared up again, let us hope sense prevails and cooler heads propose some limited access for the heritage trains.

Just to clarify a point the heritage group used there occupation of a very short stretch of the old trackbed at Pen y mount as a bargaining chip to as they thought guarantee limited access to the new line. Withdrawing their objection to the FR side taking over their land was their part.

Some other stipulations were agreed and these form the basis of the breach of contract cited by the FR. Now to me the logical step for wider goodwill would be to say ok you've not fullfilled all the conditions so we will offer reduced access to the original planned.

Let us hope that that statement was indeed a hastily drawn up draft and something better is offered. Having ridden the section north from Rhydd Ddu I was highly impressed but I won't be rejoining to support them until an attitude more akin to that displayed by other preserved railways is obvious. Help the little guys and use their facility to enrich your railway, please.

[PaulRhB]

Sorry I meant the pen y mount bit not the bit they built towards pont croesor. Ians original link is to a site that has always been pro the new WHR so that press release got a bit more credance than other runours I've heard.

There is an unfortunate history of a minority causing bad blood hence I won't condemn either railway and I hope that something postitive does emerge. My direct links are a little out of date and I understand the errors lie in both camps at times.

 

No matter what this is a stunning railway that will overcome these squabbles with time and I wish it the very best as it has created something unique with Garratts designs back in their birthplace.

[StaffsOatcake]

You don't pay the mortgage the bank take back your house.

It's all down to a technical breach of contract, where one party in return for running rights as far as Bedgelert would provide a stretch of track.

 

Didn't happen so the contract was voided.

 

Simple.

[Bomag]

I can't say I am surprised. I can remember a meeting in Portmadoc in the mid 70's where the FR was refusing some help from the WH64co on the deviation (the new tunnel was still being excavated) just because it was the WH64co.

 

In a lot of peoples eyes the FR was very underhand with their WH proposals but I though that it was mostly resolved; although I was suspicious of routing the new WH on the very expensive route through town as opposed to the cheap option of going to the WH64co station.

 

The fact that we are going to have to wait two+ years with trains running short of Harbour station when they had resources to upgrade the run-round at the existing WH Porthmadog station (they have built two temporary station with run-rounds since then) just finished it off.

 

The above doesn't absolve the WH64co from all blame, but quite frankly the FR should grow up.

[cunningduck]

This: clickety click appears to give the FR side of the story. I think the technical difficulties (using heritage stock to try and keep time on a very challenging piece of railway, although journeys to Pont Croesor don't involve 1in40 gradients, further journeys would, and the safety case for the WHR requires braked (air or vacuum I am unaware) stock with chopper coupling) spoken of in the piece may have some credence, as does the differing impression of events I get from the two press releases.

[The Stationmaster]

I'm not interested in the politics of this but one thing did strike me from the various quotes from the WHHR in which they claim they are not allowed to run to Traeth Mawr even tho' the WHR isn't using it.

 

As that section hasn't yet been passed for passenger train use it seems to me to be playing with (or on?) words to say that they 'aren't allowed to use it'. Obviously they aren't, but then legally they can't - not because the FR/WHR is stopping them but because the railway cannot yet be used for passenger trains.

 

From what is reported on various websites it is clear that a lot of other work has gradually had to follow the track laying in order for the WHR to commission anything for passenger train use. And clearly their volunteer labour and paid staff & resources have been devoted (and apparently heavily committed) to gradually extending their operations, in stages, as far as Pont Croesor.