"Welsh Highland Railway Developments & Progress"?

[Guest Phil]

The crossing has been tested and commissioned, but only under ERTMS. The WHR is waiting for ERTMS to be commissioned, and the rest of PC to Port route inspection by HMRI. This is being done when it is to ensure it is completed under the derogation of the old regulations, i.e. by the end of September.

 

BTW, just because this section is then approved does not mean a *fully timetabled* service will run next year, there is still a lot of discussion going on about how to handle traffic in Harbour station with only one platform.

 

Regards

 

Peter

 

Thanks Peter, and I also understand Pete McParlane's comments too.

 

The problem seems to be that the WHR is inextricably tied to the success of ERTMS. If ERTMS is not switched on and working in eight weeks time, then surely HMRI approval passes to ROGS ?

 

We already know that ERTMS won't be switched on until at least September because 44871 is operational on the Cambrian Coast until then.

 

 

Dutch Master - I know there would be serious physical problems engineering a bridge across the Network Rail metals, but I'm guessing that a flat crossing is any cheaper in the long term.

[The Stationmaster]

 

The problem seems to be that the WHR is inextricably tied to the success of ERTMS. If ERTMS is not switched on and working in eight weeks time, then surely HMRI approval passes to ROGS ?

 

We already know that ERTMS won't be switched on until at least September because 44871 is operational on the Cambrian Coast until then.

 

 

That's an interesting conundrum isn't it? But then it must have been so in some respects all along as ERTMS on the Cambrian is presumably being dealt with under ROGS in any case although in view of the novelty no doubt HMRI are taking a close interest.

[rhydddu009]

ah yes, good point... had forgotten about the rogs, rots things

[James]

I don't think thats a wholly unfair summation of the situation by any means, but I feel that the opportunity for the whole of that region to be more than the sum of its parts has been wasted. There seems to be some hope, however, if you believe the railway press in any event, for a good outcome in all of this. We can only hope.

 

There are good people on both sides so hopefully the historic stock will be used on the new WHR.

 

Talking with friends a while ago we had an interesting conversation discussing the fact that the WHHR and their museum is about a railway which was really a complete failure from the word go, whereas the new WHR is very much a high quality modern railway, quite a difference!

[Captain Kernow]

When up on the WHR last week, I asked a number of members of staff whether the railway would be running in November and December this year, as the timetable doesn't yet show any information. The theme of most peoples replies was that if the bypass was at a sufficiently completed stage (as regards the WHR), then some running between Porthmadog and Bedgellert might take place, with the rest of the line under maintenance. However, I was advised to ring the company offices nearer the time, which seems like good advice. No one mentioned any issues with ROGs, the flat crossing or the level crossings/signalling in the town.

 

Interesting discussion about a bridge over the Cambrian or WHR at Porthmadog. In fact, a bridge over the Cambrian would not really be possible without also putting in a bridge over the main road and also completely rebuilding the passenger station on an elevated level or a new site. It's just too close to the flat crossing, and isn't something that Network Rail would ever contemplate with the current climate and other priorities etc.

 

I do hope that differences between the WHHR and WHR/FR are finally resolved. I do appreciate the efforts that the WHHR have gone to, to keep the 'flame alight' over the years, and they have a very pleasant set-up in Porthmadog, but in all honesty, now that it's here, this is the kind of thing that I most want to see :

 

 

[Neil]

Whatever floats ones boat Herr Kapitan, me I'd rather see this trundling through the Aberglaslyn Pass. Yes I want it to be dirty, yes I'd like a good sprinkling of weeds growing up through the permanent way, no I don't want a Pullman, and if we could manage it an hours pause at Beddgelert to sample cream tea at the Goat would be rather spiffing too.

[Captain Kernow]

Whatever floats ones boat Herr Kapitan, me I'd rather see this trundling through the Aberglaslyn Pass. Yes I want it to be dirty, yes I'd like a good sprinkling of weeds growing up through the permanent way, no I don't want a Pullman, and if we could manage it an hours pause at Beddgelert to sample cream tea at the Goat would be rather spiffing too.

Oh, I do agree, but for me I think I would like a portal into an alternative Kontinuum, whereby a weed-grown WHR existed and lovely locos like that ran, but then able to return to the Garratt Kontinuum to enjoy that too!

[eastworld]

Whatever floats ones boat Herr Kapitan, me I'd rather see this trundling through the Aberglaslyn Pass. Yes I want it to be dirty, yes I'd like a good sprinkling of weeds growing up through the permanent way, no I don't want a Pullman, and if we could manage it an hours pause at Beddgelert to sample cream tea at the Goat would be rather spiffing too.

 

 

I'm afraid that the new WHR doesn't do a lot for me either. I realise that recreating the old WHR might not have been possible, but Garretts just don't seem right on the line. The trains are too long and too busy - I prefer the Welshpool and Talyllyn, but each to his own.

 

(better a railway existing than not though!)

 

Stu

[James]

I'm afraid that the new WHR doesn't do a lot for me either. I realise that recreating the old WHR might not have been possible, but Garretts just don't seem right on the line. The trains are too long and too busy

 

I understand what you and Neil mean, but the new WHR isn't for people like us, it's for tourists and in that it succeeds wonderfully! The FR has more for enthusiasts I think.

 

I prefer the Welshpool and Talyllyn, but each to his own.

 

W&L, yes but having just read Railway Adventure I'm not sure the Tallyllyn is really preserved as it was - probably for another thread. In the same way some people would liked to have seen the WHR as it was, I'm not sure what Rolt would make of the TR now.

[mikeford2002uk]

At Warley last year the Festiniog/WHR representative expressed option that it would have been better to utilise the old formation to the north of the Network rail line but turning south in the crossing area and running alongside the mainline to the Minfford area. Here the FR station could have been shared before running on along the Cob into new parallel platforms at the Harbour station! He might have had something really!

[cctransuk]

... me I'd rather see this trundling through the Aberglaslyn Pass. Yes I want it to be dirty, yes I'd like a good sprinkling of weeds growing up through the permanent way, no I don't want a Pullman, and if we could manage it an hours pause at Beddgelert to sample cream tea at the Goat would be rather spiffing too.

 

Very bucolic - but then bucolic had a habit, especially at the old WHR and its predecessors, of fading into insolvency.

 

I too would like to be able to go back in time - but not if it meant history repeating itself yet again.

 

A successful (aka long lasting) railway evolves with the times.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[Captain Kernow]

The locos and rolling stock may (in most cases) be more modern and less like what went before, but if you go to a remote stretch of lineside, just the track and the gorgeous scenery, there is still surely the magic of such places, as you sit with just the wind and wildlife for company, and wait to see whether a train might appear?.....

[coachmann]

Nostalgia don't pay the bills, nor does crummy bug boxes bow't toilets on a jouney that takes above an hour. Wait while you're all old!

[Poggy1165]

I am just so grateful the WHR is back and functioning. Even if its trains were diesel multiple units I'd still thank the Lord on a regular basis for the people and organisations who have made it possible. I first saw the WHR trackbed in 1962 when I was 9. I used to fantasise about what it would have been like to travel over such a wonderful railway. Now it's a fantasy no more.

 

I wish the two sides could smoke a pipe of peace. However, the disputes do not really surprise me as my experience of railway orientated organisations is that sooner or later cliques form and start arguing with one another. I suspect it's just part of the human condition. There is never enough power to go around all the people who want a piece of it. Rights and wrongs don't enter into it, except as fuel for debates.

[Oldddudders]

Whatever floats ones boat Herr Kapitan, me I'd rather see this trundling through the Aberglaslyn Pass. Yes I want it to be dirty, yes I'd like a good sprinkling of weeds growing up through the permanent way, no I don't want a Pullman, and if we could manage it an hours pause at Beddgelert to sample cream tea at the Goat would be rather spiffing too.

Any train through Aberglaslyn is better than no trains through Aberglaslyn - period. The nostalgia-led preservationists among us seldom achieve the same level of success that the pragmatic, business-like chaps do, however regrettable their choice of motive power and coaches might be to some. As has been pointed out, there are simply not enough dedicated gricers to keep even a modest stuffed-railway operation in decent cash-flow - these lines have to go for volume, and that means quality, comfortable products with a broad appeal to tourists, families and other groups. Had the FR not come along, would Russell and co be steaming through the pass in your or my lifetime? I think not.

[coachmann]

The only let-down (for me at any rate) are the Beyer-Garratts. They shuffle efficiently through the pass up hill and down dale with barely a sound. Perhaps things will get more chuffier when some conventional tender lcos are restored to service.

[Neil]

I've been thinking, often fraught with dangers, but what the hell. I've been trying to work out what 'preservation goals' the WHR (Caernarfon) have achieved. As far as I can tell it's that the trackbed has been secured along with a range of buildings at Dinas Junction. There's very little else of the NWNGR or the original WHR in evidence.

 

James' earlier observation about the line " the new WHR isn't for people like us, it's for tourists and in that it succeeds wonderfully!" suggests it's visitor attraction first and foremost. It may do that very well; it looks and smells new, businesslike and efficient but there's little soul or romance left. The link with the past is the route and scenery, the current infrastructure hinders rather than helps that connection. I am fortunate to have known and walked sections of the line in it's dormant days, and though it might be a minority view round here, I found it far more inspiring then, than today's enterprise.

 

Olddudders view that "Any train through Aberglaslyn is better than no trains through Aberglaslyn - period. The nostalgia-led preservationists among us seldom achieve the same level of success that the pragmatic, business-like chaps do ....." raises a couple of interesting thoughts, the first being that no matter how emphatic the first half of the statement is, it only reflects an opinion not a truth. The second part makes me question whether the finished product (in this case a nearly complete railway achieved by the hard headed business like chaps) is really the be all and end all. Model railway parallels of an RTR layout with everything bought in to get the quickest possible result set against the person who takes an age to put something together from raw materials. One will be slicker and quicker, but the ultimate worth is questionable.

 

An enthusiast friend of mine to a trip down the coast line on the regular summer steam service, this year hauled by the black 5. When asked what he thought of it the reply came back "not much". His beef was that the loco and crew were too capable; the train ran to impeccable time but lacked the drama of the previous years 4MT. It makes me wonder what the future holds for the WHR, once the journey has been sampled why would one want to return to a line with all the efficiency, soul and connection to it's history of an out of town retail park?

[James]

Neil, I'm torn between the two camps if I'm honest - the neglected narrow gauge railways of wales I've read about have a real magic about them but the reality for their survival now means they have to have changed. If you reas Rolt's Railway Adventure you see the Talyllyn hasn't really been preserved, it's evolved and I'm not sure if Rolt would approve - he virutally says toruism will be the death of 'real' Wales. Likewise Boyd in his book seems to conclude that the 'new' TR has lost something along the way. But is it better that the railway has survived?

 

The new WHR is an amazing engineering project - people like Andy Savage have run it with a real professionalism (then he is a rather senior railwayman!). Although to a strict budget, nothing has been scrimped (sp?) upon - the way it has been financed is clever too as the project will not be in debt.

 

I may be biased; I had a week on p-way there in 2008 and it's a week I treasure

 

 

The new WHR will never recapture the original WHR but as an attraction I think it will last and take many people through Snowdonia - having between Rhyd Ddu and Pont Croesor the views are wonderful! That will bring 'normal' people back.

 

For people like us the occasional site of Russell hauling heritage stock through Aberglasyn Pass will be magical - I dearly hope that this will happen.

[Oldddudders]

I've been thinking, often fraught with dangers, but what the hell.

I can't fault your logic on most items here, Neil, actually, but perhaps have a different perspective, that's all. My first visit to Aberglaslyn was in 1966, within days of leaving school. It was a place I'd heard of, but not much more, and wandering through the tunnels and across the old bridge etc was quite magic - I am not immune to the nostalgia stuff, either. It's just that I love railways, and a new railway - especially one using steam - is a fine thing to me. I haven't been to the WHR since 2001, when it ran as far as Waunfawr. I took in the quality of the p way and works etc - having a civil engineer with me helped, and he and I had connived in selling off BR's engineers, including Andy Savage, after all! - and it was clear that this was serious stuff. So part of my pleasure in all this is that people have succeeded in an enterprise that even 20 years ago would have seemed implausible. As I said earlier, I am not confident that the WHHR would ever have made the leap of scope that this exercise called for, and I'm afraid the sort of train Russell could be expected to haul would never have washed its face financially.

 

If I want to see old trackbed and buildings with new uses, I can wander across a couple of fields behind my house and see the steam tramway that died in 1947 thanks to Hitler and the diesel bus. I wish it hadn't.

 

I do understand how underwhelming some slick preservation operators can seem - their railways have just the same level of minimalist operating facilities as the national network, and it all lacks drama. But I'll carry on putting a few coins in their tin if I'm passing, because to me any railway is better than no railway.

[coachmann]

My old pal the late Bill Rear, well known author of many books on the railways of North Wales, knew a little of the original Welsh Highland and couldn't keep away from the developing new Welsh Highland. Now doesn't that tell anyone anything? He knew well why it had faded away before the war and worried the new line might go the same way unless some sound business decisions were taken.

 

There is nothing at all wrong with being hard-headed in business, although some people would have us believe it is a sin! The steam locos are real enough and the newly built coaches look traditional even if they are comfortable and have toilets, so nostalgia has not been overlooked. The Festiniog Railway is the same....A line with a future, with an eye on the past.

[cctransuk]

In reality there was, and still is, a stark choice between an empty trackbed populated in our imagination by ghosts of the past, or a modern railway that has attractions for the masses.

 

You can't run a railway, let alone restore one from scratch, on the revenue generated by a hard-core bunch of misty-eyed romantics.

 

To do what it has achieved the FR / WHR has taken the pragmatic view that it will exist for the most part on the single visit market. There is, to all intents and purposes, a steady flow of non-enthusiast holidaymakers who, given the variability of Welsh weather, are only to glad to take a weatherproof excursion by car / coach and railway.

 

I am willing to bet that, whether we the enthusiasts make one or more visits, is largely immaterial to the FR / WHR.

 

I have walked the derelict trackbed of the WHR, (as did my father before me immediately prior to going off to fight in WW2), and we both prefer the restored railway - even with historically inaccurate stock and the vast majority of passengers decidedly non-enthusiasts.

 

Let's face it, there was no pretence on the part of the FR / WHR to preserve what went before - to do so is an unrealistic aspiration no matter which railway is the subject.

 

Railways closed because they were not financially viable in their original form - you can't preserve insolvency!

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[The Stationmaster]

It is sobering to just pause for a minute and wonder which of the Welsh narrow gauge railways is 'like it used to be' and as far as I can see the answer is none of them.

 

When there were two, the Talyllyn and the Festiniog, the former seemed to be regarded as the more amateur and 'like the old days' of the two while the other was seen by many as a re-creation with quite a hard-headed approach. Since then of course much of the Talyllyn has change out of all recognition - largely I think because it had the choice of doing so or withering away.

 

The W&L in some respects possibly does capture a bit more of the laid-back atmosphere of old but, like the others, has added an assortment of motive power and rolling stock which has little to do with the old line's heritage.

 

All of this is understandable for these lines once you accept that in the modern world they have no chance of survival but to rely on the tourist trade and accordingly they have to offer that market at least some of what it wants. That they manage to do so while still preserving something of their past is something enthusiasts for the past should be grateful for - but we need to recognise what pays for it.

 

As far as the WHR is concerned we are looking at what is basically a new railway on the old trackbed. The economics of its operation - over something more than the ideal length for such a railway - dictates that it must run trains with plenty of passenger capacity, and fill them. It is an out & out tourist railway but with some elements of re-creation of the old and the added interest, as far as I'm concerned, of offering me and countless other British railway enthuiasts the chance to see Garratts at work and to ride behind them.

 

If it is also possible to run 'Russell' and a suitable train then don't forget that the loco survived because of a mixture of business and preservation, albeit in succession rather than in parallel. And definitely don't forget that the line it would be running on only exists because of some hard-headed business planning. The 'pure' preservationists had their go at it over 40 years ago and as the present line has progressed their contribution was in reality no more than another layer of archaeology, their laudable ambitions had foundered because they were under-funded.

 

Running any steam railway today is a tourist operation whether we like it or not and in many respects it is that, and only that, which keeps many such lines open.

[James]

It is sobering to just pause for a minute and wonder which of the Welsh narrow gauge railways is 'like it used to be' and as far as I can see the answer is none of them.

 

You can argue that virtually all preserved lines are not 'like it used to be'. As you say, it's a case or of changing or failing.

 

And I do agree about the W&L - the Llanfair end still has a lovely atmosphere despite its obvious development. It's one of may favourite lines!

[ForestPines]

I've been thinking, often fraught with dangers, but what the hell. I've been trying to work out what 'preservation goals' the WHR (Caernarfon) have achieved. As far as I can tell it's that the trackbed has been secured along with a range of buildings at Dinas Junction. There's very little else of the NWNGR or the original WHR in evidence.

 

On the other hand, you can argue that what's left preserved is what was left to preserve - by the 1990s, very little NWNGR or Croesor Tramway stuff was left, and the FR Co generally have taken preservation of the remaining heritage structures seriously.

 

I've noticed that the "big business" end of preservation does seem to try to take its heritage responsibilities more seriously in a museums sense - by which, I mean, try to take their heritage preservation responsibilities in the same way that a professional museum or archaeological service would do. So, you have structures like the Tryfan Jn station building being maintained in their ruined condition, the railway trying to prevent further decay but at the same time not restoring the structure, because current thinking in archaeology is to stabilise sites for the future, without unnecessary destruction-of-evidence either from the elements or from over-zealous restoration. I have to admit that I'm guessing as to the railway's motivation there, but you never know, I might be right!

 

(the archaeology of railways isn't exactly well-developed compared to other industrial archaeology - the standout-significant event in the subject is still the Liverpool dig from 1980 or so)

[Neil]

On the other hand, you can argue that what's left preserved is what was left to preserve - by the 1990s, very little NWNGR or Croesor Tramway stuff was left, and the FR Co generally have taken preservation of the remaining heritage structures seriously.

 

I've noticed that the "big business" end of preservation does seem to try to take its heritage responsibilities more seriously in a museums sense - by which, I mean, try to take their heritage preservation responsibilities in the same way that a professional museum or archaeological service would do. So, you have structures like the Tryfan Jn station building being maintained in their ruined condition, the railway trying to prevent further decay but at the same time not restoring the structure, because current thinking in archaeology is to stabilise sites for the future, without unnecessary destruction-of-evidence either from the elements or from over-zealous restoration. I have to admit that I'm guessing as to the railway's motivation there, but you never know, I might be right! .....

 

I'm not sure that I agree that sympathetic and responsible preservation has been uppermost in the mindset of the FR Co when rebuilding of the WHR. I get the impression that hard nosed commercialism and the ideology of running a modern railway but with steam traction hold the upper hand. I'd cite the FR rebuilding of Prince, Linda, Blanche and Molewyn as examples of engineering 'improvements' trumping any preservation ideals.