Towards pre-Grouping carriages in 4mm – the D508 appreciation thread

[Compound2632]

@richbrummitt has provided me with the motivation for starting a carriage-building topic, in the form of an Australian tawny desert wine bottle from which he has, most thoughtfully, removed the contents:

 

 

Most wine bottles are around 3” in diameter. This bottle is a uniform 2½” diameter over 7⅛”, making it ideal for forming 8 ft radius Plastikard carriage roofs for carriages up to 45 ft long, such as were worn by Midland Railway arc-roof bogie carriages built in the period 1878 – 1889.

 

There are etched brass kits available from 51L/Wizard and possibly Stevenson Carriages for the 43 ft bogie third D490 and bogie third brake D502 (352 carriages) and the 45 ft bogie composite D513 and bogie composite brake D526 (100 carriages). 51L/Wizard also do a range of 31 ft 6-wheelers: third D493, third brake D504, luggage composite D516, lavatory composite converted from D516, and lavatory third D494. However, to the best of my knowledge there are no kits available in 4 mm scale for the various 54 ft 12-wheelers, the various bogie carriages built with lavatories, or the 40 ft carriages.

 

I have a small supply of sides, ends, and underframe components from the Slaters range of injection molded plastic kits for 6-wheel carriages, mostly bought up from the Coopercraft stand at several ExpoEMs, as well as half-a-dozen complete kits. That range covered all the 31 ft 6-wheelers also produced by 51L/Wizard, with the exception of the conversions to lavatory composite. So, I’m thinking about what can be done in the way of cutting and shutting to produce some bogie carriages. I was very much impressed by George Brodie’s demonstration at the Warley Show last year of 7 mm carriages built using parts from Slaters 7 mm scale Midland Railway arc-roof carriage kits. I understand that the sides of the bogie carriages are modular, with individual pieces for first and third class compartments etc. He had a magnificent 54 ft lavatory composite brake D522 on display and was busy adapting parts to make such esoteric vehicles as family carriages and picnic saloons. Unfortunately Slaters never produced 4 mm scale equivalents of their 7 mm scale bogie carriage kits, so cutting up sides is perforce the way forward.

 

The 40 ft carriages look an interesting place to start – they were a large group, 385 vehicles in total, which laid the foundation for the Midland’s reputation for passenger comfort, being the first bogie carriages produced in quantity for a British railway. In 1877, when the first orders for these carriages were placed, even the 42 ft radial underframe was as yet only a twinkle in Francis Webb’s eye. The 40 ft carriages are a complicated group: I’ve been re-reading Chapter 5 of R.E. Lacy & G. Dow’s Midland Railway Carriages very closely. They can be distinguished in photos of trains since they were the only arc-roofed carriages to have six door ventilators – the 43 ft and 45 ft carriages all have seven, while the 31 ft 6-wheelers have five.

 

I’ve drawn up the carriage sides to scale, using various references for detailed dimensions, and making best estimates in some cases. The Midland Railway Study Centre holds the original drawings for most of these carriages, which in the fullness of time I hope to consult. Although these drawings resemble published diagrams, they are my own work.

 

The first 40ft carriages to be ordered, indeed the first carriages built at the new Litchurch Lane Carriage & Wagon Works, were third brakes. The first 30, Lot 3, were ordered on 10 April 1877. They had 10 ft radius roofs, giving an internal height of 7’1”, but topped with a clerestory of the same type as used on the first bogie carriages – including the first 12-wheelers – built immediately prior to the opening of the new works. These carriages appeared to have five compartments but the compartment at the brake end formed part of the brake/luggage compartment – a common arrangement with Midland arc-roof carriages. In the following batch of 40, Lot 5, all five compartments were for passengers, the guard squeezing in with the luggage. For this batch, the clerestory was abandoned but the roof radius decreased to 8 ft, giving 3” greater internal height – this was to be the standard dimension henceforward:

The sides for this carriage could be made from the Slaters sides for the third brake D504 (green) with the lavatory third D494 (blue) providing the extra compartment and bits of panelling for the brake compartment:

I’ve shown parts joined at the right hand side of a compartment door, as I think this will make the join easiest to hide. The joins on the panel-extending pieces have to be in plain sight.

 

Jumping slightly ahead, there were 100 6-compartment thirds built in two batches of 50, Lots 27 and 36. The standard third class compartment was 6’0” between partitions. Six of these with five 1¼” partitions and the two 2⅞” end walls would result in a 37 ft carriage. Rather than build a non-standard length, these carriages were given non-standard compartments, 6’6” between partitions:

This non-standard compartment width means that it is impractical to make these thirds from the Slaters sides.

 

Turning to composites, two designs were produced in August 1877, both described in the Drawing Register as “Composite Carriage (40ft Bogie Carriage) 1st, 2nd, 3rd + Luggage Compt” – two and a half years after the Midland had abolished second class!

 

The first design, to drawing 331, had three first class compartments flanked by a pair of thirds, with a 5’2½”-long luggage compartment at one end. Three batches were built, 30 to Lot 17 and 10 each to Lots 50 and 58. In 1895, 40 of them had one first class compartment downgraded to third; it’s not stated which but my guess would be the one furthest from the luggage end, as being over the bogie so giving the least smooth ride. Ralph Lacy couldn’t find an official photo to illustrate them but this is my interpretation:

To make this from the Slaters sides, it would probably be necessary to make extension pieces to eke out the length between the first class compartments, which are the standard 7’3” between partitions. The D516 luggage composite sides can provide the panelling for adjacent first and third class compartments.

 

The second design, to drawing 332, was the most numerous, running to 157 vehicles. This had two firsts and three thirds, the firsts being nearest the centre of the carriage, with a 6’5½”-long luggage compartment at the end with the single third. The first batch of 50 were built to Lot 16, soon followed by a further 20 to Lot 25 for the Midland Scotch Joint Stock (jointly owned with the G&SWR and NBR). The luggage compartments of the third brakes had a droplight in the left-hand of the double doors; these unbraked vehicles had plain panelling to both doors:

The plain double doors present a problem since they are both full width whereas the right-hand door of the luggage compartment of the D516 composites is narrow, the luggage compartment being only 3’7” wide. It might be possible to marry the composite’s LH door with the D504 third brake’s RH door!

 

In 1888, after the MSJS carriages had been in service for ten years, 18 had one third converted to a pair of lavatories, providing improved comfort on the long journey to or from Scotland for the passengers in one third and one first class compartment. The other two compartments remained iron bladder class:

All the carriages considered thus far had 8 ft wheelbase Pullman-style bogies with compensating beams. I’m not aware of any source of these in 4 mm scale; they would have to be scratch built. The next batch of 50, to Lot 69, were given 8 ft wheelbase iron-framed bogies with individually-sprung axleboxes. These had been introduced on the first batches of 43 ft thirds and third brakes and are, I think, available from 51L/Wizard. This batch were built as brake carriages, so the luggage compartment doors gained a window:

For the final batch of 37, ordered on 1 October 1882 to Lot 83, the brake compartment reverted to luggage only and the doors were again windowless.

 

The composite brake version looks the most promising variant, using parts from the Slaters sides for the D504 third brake (green) and D516 composite (red), with a sliver of panelling from the D494 lavatory third (blue):

This isn’t quite an exact match, as the lavatory third donates plain panels that are slightly too wide, so the panel between the two firsts is slightly too narrow. I’ve drawn this padded out with a sliver cut from the composite’s RH luggage door but it might be possible to but the two first class compartments directly together.

 

All these carriages were replaced in the capital stock by new carriages built around 1899-1902 but many would have continued in service as duplicate stock. At 31 December 1905, there were 135 bogie composites and 211 bogie thirds (excluding 12-wheelers) in the duplicate stock. I don’t understand the history of the Midland’s Carriage Diagram Book but according to Lacy & Dow, the existence of diagrams D261 for the third brakes of Lot 5 and D263 for these luggage composites indicates that some were still in traffic in 1910/11 but all had gone by 1918. These diagrams (and also D262 for the 30 ft 4-compartment firsts built in 1883/4 for close-coupled sets) are out of the regular series for carriages, which runs from D436 to D606.

 

In 1888, instructions were given that 50 bogie composites with luggage compartments were to be fitted as brakes. Photos of these carriages in trains show that in at least some cases, in addition to the LH luggage door being given a droplight, a fixed window was installed in place of the plain panelling, giving the impression of a half-compartment. The brake compartments of the D524 and D527 lavatory composite brakes built in 1889 were arranged in the same way:

A cut-and-shut for this variant would need only the D504 third brake sides (green, brake end parts cyan) and D516 composite sides (red):

Some of these carriages had the third class compartment taken into the brake compartment, making them equivalent to D528 (see below); these might not have had the extra window. A handful of these survived to 1918, with four lasting to grouping.

 

The final 40 ft carriages were the eight of Lot 106, ordered on 4 February 1884. These had the compartment next to the brake end incorporated into the luggage/brake area from the beginning, like the third brakes of Lot 5, and were given diagram D528. This time, the LH double door was plain; the doors were also set 12” further from the end of the carriage:

This might be simpler to make, as the brake end from the D504 third brake wouldn’t need shortening, though the window would need filling in. But there were only 8 to this design.

 

References:

 

R.E. Lacy and G. Dow, Midland Railway Carriages (Wild Swan, 1986).

G. Dow and R.E. Lacy, Midland Style (HMRS, 1975).

D. Jenkinson, Midland Carriages (OPC, 1984).

MR C&W Drg. 547, Midland Railway Study Centre Item 88-D0001.

 

 

Edited June 27, 2022 by Compound2632
Added references, images restored.

[Brassey]

Interesting.  A similar cut and shut approach was featured in S4News using Ratio sides to produce GWR bogie carriages which resulted in some fine examples that I saw at a Scaleforum.  However, apparently it took two years to produce a rake at which point I decided it would be quicker to build complete kits.  Either way, it amounts to a lot of carriage lining for pre-grouping liveries.  Something not for the faint-hearted.  Mike Trice put some tutorials on YouTube for carriage lining over lockdown if anyone is interested.  (I am currently at that stage).

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, Brassey said:

A similar cut and shut approach was featured in S4News using Ratio sides to produce GWR bogie carriages which resulted in some fine examples that I saw at a Scaleforum.  

 

I saw that being demonstrated, again I think at ExpoEM a couple of years ago - presumably the same person. Apparently it's not practical to mix'n'match Ratio and Triang - the differences in the panelling become too evident when placed side by side. 

 

1 hour ago, Brassey said:

Mike Trice put some tutorials on YouTube for carriage lining over lockdown if anyone is interested.  (I am currently at that stage).

 

I'll look those up. But first things first, I think I need to invest in a fine razor saw and mitre block.

[30368]

10 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

@richbrummitt has provided me with the motivation for starting a carriage-building topic, in the form of an Australian tawny desert wine bottle from which he has, most thoughtfully, removed the contents:

 

Compound,

 

What an excellent starting post, full of information and encouragement.

 

I do have a few kits for ex LSWR and SE&CR 48ft coaches and will look again at these as soon as the latest loco project is completed. I guess one fear is that there is so little data available regarding coaches compared to locomotives. Our photographic inheritance understandably favours locomotives so a lot more research is required to build a model that reflects the prototype. So, a bit more research but that will not discourage me or any modeller from having a go! Thanks.

 

Kind regards,

 

Richard B

[Brassey]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

I'll look those up. But first things first, I think I need to invest in a fine razor saw and mitre block.

 

I made my own mitre block out of wood cutting the slot with a razor saw as it is vital to get the cut square in both plains and without the saw wandering from side to side.  It took quite a few attempts as cutting things straight is not one of my strengths.

 

Currently residing in the cabinet of shame, 2 of my cut and shut jobs awaiting lining. Having cut up a few GWR 4 wheel break thirds to make parcel vans, I ended up with a lot of 3rd class compartments.  So I put these together to make a 3rd class carriage.  It was quite a Frankenstein until painted with panels of dark brown, grey and buff plastic.  This made me aware that panels, even from the same model but from different eras, do not necessarily line up.  As a result the cantrail just below the roof is not perfectly straight though should be hidden under lining and the roof line.  The cut lines are where the doors are so this it not so much of a problem.

 

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, 30368 said:

I do have a few kits for ex LSWR and SE&CR 48ft coaches and will look again at these as soon as the latest loco project is completed. I guess one fear is that there is so little data available regarding coaches compared to locomotives. Our photographic inheritance understandably favours locomotives so a lot more research is required to build a model that reflects the prototype. So, a bit more research but that will not discourage me or any modeller from having a go! Thanks.

 

 

There are the books by Weddell for the LSWR - rather pricey second hand I fear. SECR carriages are the subject of a recent series of books aren't they? High-class carriage books are always worth the money. Even if all one's modelling turns out worthless (an unbuilt kit commands a higher price than a built one, generally) they retain their value - unless, perhaps, as well-thumbed as my copy of Lacy & Dow! If you can't buy the books, it's worth finding a friend who has them - line societies may be able to help.

 

The caveat is that books are good for "as built" condition. If you're modelling pre-grouping carriages in "late" condition, then it can be down to odd glimpses in photos. 

[Nick Holliday]

13 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

There are the books by Weddell for the LSWR - rather pricey second hand I fear. SECR carriages are the subject of a recent series of books aren't they?  High-class carriage books are always worth the money.

The recent series covers LBSCR, not SECR, although there is a fairly recent Lighmoor Press book on  SECR bogie coaches, although sadly  it doesn't cover any SER or LCDR stock.

[relaxinghobby]

2 1/2 inch wide bottle, unusually skinny for a wine bottle......so I'm told.

 

Older pre-grouping prototypes of carriages and vans require an even flatter curve to their rooves, a much more tee-total affair.  Looking for lager glass vessels to heat-form a plastic roof about needs one somewhere in the 4 to 5 inch diameter range. Usually you end up using pickle jars although once I a had a smooth sided tin can that a beer kit came in.

 

As a Midland modeller do you have any idea of making an early Pullman style clerestory roof with rounded ends, my last plastic attempt went banana shape as the glue dried out.

 

Hang on you could have a cheese and pickle sandwich as part of a ploughman's lunch with a glass of beer.

[Compound2632]

54 minutes ago, relaxinghobby said:

As a Midland modeller do you have any idea of making an early Pullman style clerestory roof with rounded ends, my last plastic attempt went banana shape as the glue dried out.

 

I'm afraid I've never even thought about how to do that. The Midland cars are a little early for my c. 1902 period but some were still in use as picnic saloons and a little later in the motor train experiment using the M&GN 4-4-0Ts. Does anybody know when they first started being used as staff cabins at loco sheds?

 

There are various LNWR modellers on here such as @Jol Wilkinson and @Penlan who may have some relevant experience with Wolverton diners. Plus there's @AVS1998 who is keen on Brighton Pullman cars.

 

On the early Midland cars with their open end platforms, the end of the roof droops over the platform in a way that looks particularly tricky to model, especially as its unsupported from below. I know it's not a technique you use @relaxinghobby but it does look like a good candidate for 3D printing.

[cheesysmith]

The all third with 6'6" compartments, wouldn't be possible using either a first compartment shortened or two thirds cut unequally joined together?

[Compound2632]

1 minute ago, cheesysmith said:

The all third with 6'6" compartments, wouldn't be possible using either a first compartment shortened or two thirds cut unequally joined together?

 

The panels between the windows of adjacent thirds are not wide enough for your second suggestion. Thinking about your first suggestion, the spacing between the third and first class compartments of the D512 composite is 6'7½"  + partition thickness, i.e 0.5 mm too great for this job, while the two firsts can of course be butted up with the luggage doors cut out. There's also the extra width of the end panels to deal with. If one ignored that and lived with slightly too wide compartments, one could build a representative model that would scale out at about the right length but it would use up two pairs of composite sides. 

 

I'm contemplating a similar problem as one of the trains I want to build is a five-coach close-coupled set of 1883 - third brake D504 / third D493 / first D262 / third D493 / third brake D504. The thirds and third brakes are more-or-less straight Slaters kits but the first was 30 ft long with four standard 7'3" first class compartments. One possibility might be to scratchbuild filler pieces of the necessary width.

[chris p bacon]

1 hour ago, relaxinghobby said:

As a Midland modeller do you have any idea of making an early Pullman style clerestory roof with rounded ends, my last plastic attempt went banana shape as the glue dried out.

 

Do you mean one of these (although it's a GN/ECJS coach)

 

They're quite an awkward shape to replicate. I've another to build, as it's a one off I will use a mix of plastic and balsa.

 

If anyone finds a bottle or tin can in the shape of a Howlden roof, I'm all ears..

[chris p bacon]

4 minutes ago, AVS1998 said:

The rounded/dome clerestory roof style has been covered in the summer 2018 edition of the Brighton Circle Modeller's Digest, albeit on the LBSCR Brighton Royal set, kit built from a Smokey Loco Models etch.

 

 

The link brings you back to this thread.

[Brassey]

3 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

There are various LNWR modellers on here such as @Jol Wilkinson and @Penlan who may have some relevant experience with Wolverton diners.

Some kits have a resin roof which I have acquired as a separate item for various projects. 
 

IIRC Jol’s  LNWR diner and ex-Modellers World kits had a shaped wooden roof. 

[Penlan]

I have used shaped (though modified) wooden roofs for my clerestory stock.

[Rail-Online]

On 02/09/2020 at 08:30, relaxinghobby said:

 

Older pre-grouping prototypes of carriages and vans require an even flatter curve to their rooves, a much more tee-total affair.  Looking for lager glass vessels to heat-form a plastic roof about needs one somewhere in the 4 to 5 inch diameter range. Usually you end up using pickle jars although once I a had a smooth sided tin can that a beer kit came in.

 

 

If you need a long 4" tube could you use waste water pipe as the former?  This is in a very hard plastic (is it a form of ABS?) and may well stand up to boiling water.

 

Anyone tried it?

 

Tony

[Compound2632]

22 minutes ago, Rail-Online said:

If you need a long 4" tube could you use waste water pipe as the former?  This is in a very hard plastic (is it a form of ABS?) and may well stand up to boiling water.

 

As stated above, the principal drawback is that you can't drink the contents first.

 

For 7 mm scale, looking at standard ABS pipe sizes, 110 mm OD would be about right for an 8 ft radius roof but the next size up, 160 mm, is a bit too big for a 10 ft radius.

Edited September 3, 2020 by Compound2632

[Compound2632]

Just for fun, I’ve also drawn out some of the elegant 54 ft 12-wheelers. Here’s the most numerous of them, the 25 composites built as Lot 110 in 1886 – the last Midland main line carriages to be built without lavatories and with oil lighting. They had three first class compartments flanked on either side by a pair of thirds, and a spacious 7’0” luggage compartment at one end. They were given diagram D507:

One could probably assemble this from one pair of sides for D504 third brakes and one and a half pairs of sides for D516 composites.

 

In 1892, twenty of them had one compartment converted to a pair of lavatories serving the adjacent first and third class compartments. They were converted to gas lighting at the same time. According to Lacy & Dow, the diagram, D507A, shows the first class compartment nearest the luggage compartment end converted:

Lacy & Dow reproduce a photo of No. 279 that has the first class compartment nearest the non-luggage end converted:

To complicate matters further, a c. 1900 photo (possibly a few years earlier) that @Lecorbusier sent me of an express near Didsbury, hauled by a 2183 Class 4-4-0, shows a third variant, with the third class compartment next but one to the luggage compartment converted:

It wouldn’t surprise me to learn that which compartment got converted depended on the day of the week the carriage came into the works – so this is the Monday version, the diagram shows the Tuesday version, and No. 279 is the Thursday version! (The end compartments wouldn’t get converted as they’re Sunday and Saturday.)

 

In that photo, the following carriage is the variant with the Tuesday lavatories, so there are at least photos of these three variants. All this 12-wheel grandeur is let down by the next carriage, a 29 ft 4-compartment first of 1875 vintage, whilst a D490 bogie third completes the passenger accommodation, the whole being flanked by a pair of D529 4-wheel brakes.

 

The second most numerous type of 54 ft 12-wheeler were the last arc-roofed carriages to be built, composite brakes to D522, twenty of which were turned out in 1896. They had lavatories and gas lighting from new:

Note the fixed window next to the double doors of the brake/luggage compartments, as mentioned re. the 40 ft composite brake conversion. These carriages can be seen mixed in with the new clerestory carriages in many photos of express trains of the 1898-1905 period, only being displaced from main-line use as corridor carriages took over. They were very long-lived compared to other Midland arc-roofed carriages, being withdrawn in the 1930s. One was used on the Walsall Wood branch in the dying days of its passenger service.

 

This could be cobbled together from Slaters’ sides but would need two pairs of lavatory third sides:

There’s a subtle difference in the panelling of lavatory compartments converted from passenger compartments, compared to ones built as such. The latter have a continuous long waist panel and, if the blank side between the lavatory window and the adjacent compartment window is divided into two panels, they are of equal width. The converted compartments keep the short waist panel and the dimensions of the compartment windows are preserved in the upper panelling.

Edited June 27, 2022 by Compound2632
Images re-inserted.

[Buhar]

Hi Stephen, 

Cut and shut is a good route (see Clive Mortimore's stuff) but I think there are limits as the concoctions become more piecemeal. 

Have you considered a Silhouette cutter? You've obviously got the CAD skills and have done some nice work in styrene. I'm sure you'll have seen the @MikeTrice thread started a few years ago.

Alan 

[Compound2632]

22 minutes ago, Buhar said:

Cut and shut is a good route (see Clive Mortimore's stuff) but I think there are limits as the concoctions become more piecemeal. 

Have you considered a Silhouette cutter? You've obviously got the CAD skills and have done some nice work in styrene. I'm sure you'll have seen the @MikeTrice thread started a few years ago.

 

 

Yes, I've seen @Clive Mortimore's wonderfully variegated creations!

He really needs to get the paint out...

 

The drawings I've posted are in CorelDraw, which I've used on and off for 20 years. I have followed the Silhouette topic. It's certainly an interesting technique. At the moment, I don't really have room for one - certainly not with the house as full as it has been over the past five months. Maybe once No. 2 son has gone to university, next year. Many years ago I did have a go at the David Jenkinson plasticard doily method but I was never satisfied with my efforts. Looking back, I think I was limited by the accuracy of my marking out and the cutting tools I was using at the time. I've also dreamed that for very standardised carriage components as used by the Midland, one could make a set of punches.

[Clive Mortimore]

1 hour ago, Buhar said:

Hi Stephen, 

Cut and shut is a good route (see Clive Mortimore's stuff) but I think there are limits as the concoctions become more piecemeal. 

Have you considered a Silhouette cutter? You've obviously got the CAD skills and have done some nice work in styrene. I'm sure you'll have seen the @MikeTrice thread started a few years ago.

Alan 

Hi Alan

 

I have no idea what you mean

 

 

The start of a diagram 25 RKB form Lima bits. I have a feeling it will be 50% filler when/if finished.

 

I am looking at making some MR 48ft LTSR coaches with elliptical roofs, along with some LMS 54ft LTSR coaches. The Ratio Suburbans will form the basis of the models with Dapol roofs.

 

I too have a Silhouette cutter which I haven't yet had ago at doing some coach sides.

[Compound2632]

51 minutes ago, Clive Mortimore said:

I am looking at making some MR 48ft LTSR coaches with elliptical roofs, along with some LMS 54ft LTSR coaches. The Ratio Suburbans will form the basis of the models with Dapol roofs.

 

I'm looking forward to this! The Dapol/Airfix Period 2 non-corridors will certainly give you a flying start for all these. Bogies can be used directly, u/fs shortened and, for the Midland vehicles, angle trussing replaced with queenposts. The sides from the Ratio third and first will give you the Midland 48 ft D1222 and D1054 but the brake end of the 6-compartment third brake will need a bit of jiggery-pokery to get D1226. I'd be disappointed, though, if you didn't attempt the D1219 lavatory composite! There was a small quantity of 54 ft stock built just before grouping - several single-carriage diagrams! For the LMS 54 ft stock, using the Ratio 8-compt third sides to make a 9-compt third will give a carriage nominally 9/32" (0.8 mm) too short but using the 7-compt first sides to make an 8-compt first, 9 5/8" (3.2 mm) too long...

 

An issue may be that the Ratio kits are for 8'6" wide stock but these LT&S section carriages are 9'0" wide, the extra width being at the waist, so a bit more bend will be needed on the tumblehome.

 

If you buy second-hand unbuilt kits, you should be able to accumulate sides molded in plastic of a variety of shades of grey.

Edited September 4, 2020 by Compound2632

[chris p bacon]

3 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

At the moment, I don't really have room for one

 

They're very small, I'm sending you a PM about this 

[BernardTPM]

5 hours ago, Clive Mortimore said:

I am looking at making some MR 48ft LTSR coaches with elliptical roofs, along with some LMS 54ft LTSR coaches. The Ratio Suburbans will form the basis of the models with Dapol roofs.

 

Snap

 

 

Might fudge the tumblehome issue...

[Compound2632]

I ought to have acknowledged earlier that my current bout of thinking about Slaters sides has been encouraged by @Penrhos1920' topic on Great Western carriages from Ratio sides:

... and also a demonstration of similar cut-n-shuttery at ExpoEM a couple years ago. (Did I already mention that?)