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Towards pre-Grouping carriages in 4mm – the D508 appreciation thread


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9 minutes ago, Asterix2012 said:

I don’t think Patrick Stirling liked falderals like domes or bogies.

 

He was eventually obliged to put them under the heavy front end of his singles. But yes, otherwise he avoided them, both for locomotives and carriages. That engine is a 0-4-2T but in anyone else's hands it would have been a 0-4-4T. Ivatt built some 4-4-0s; they challenge one's preconceptions of what a Great Northern engine should look like. They can't have been popular with photographers, perhaps for that reason - I can't find a good photo of one of the first sort  in original condition so here's a model (from the London Road Models stable).

 

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21 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

I've been rather quiet on the carriage front - on modelling generally - but that doesn't mean I've not been thinking about carriages. One thing I have been doing is reading up on West Coast Joint Stock and East Coast Joint Stock in the 19th century, as background for a series of articles on the composition of Midland Scotch Expresses I've been mulling over for the Midland Railway Society Journal. I've a moderately complete library on LNWR carriages, including R.M. Casserley and P.A. Millard, A Register of West Coast Joint Stock (HMRS, 1980), which is one of the few carriage books to go right back to the days when LNWR carriages were built at Saltley, at what subsequently became the home of Joseph Wright's Metropolitan Railway Carriage & Wagon Company.

 

However, I'd run into my studied ignorance of anything to do with Denison's upstart Lincolnshire potato railway - as far as I'm concerned, the Great Northern Railway was a particularly admirable Irish line, tragically brought down by politics, though North Americans and Australians may have other, equally admirable, lines in view. To learn about the East Coast Joint Stock, I've had to bite the bullet and buy a second hand book about (mostly) Doncaster-built carriages:

 

1285973083_HooleECJSbook.JPG.76ecb3d95ef9d121fd74286b0826efe7.JPG

 

[K. Hoole, An Illustrated History of East Coast Joint Stock (OPC, 1993)] 

 

Hopefully @chris p bacon will approve and therefore forgive me for not making any further progress with the Silhouette sides!

 

I rationalise this Doncaster aberation with the thoughts that:

  • The ownership of the ECJS was divided up according to the Kings Cross - Waverley route mileage of each of the partners, so although the Great Northern had the largest share, it did not have an absolute majority, and could be held in check by those very fine lines the North Eastern and the North British. (I believe the Caledonian, as successor to the Scottish North Eastern Railway, which built the Perth-Aberdeen line, was a "sleeping partner", but I'll let that pass.)
  • The author was the doyen of North Eastern enthusiasts and has chiefly chosen illustrations of East Coast expresses hauled by North Eastern engines, on the specious grounds that since all Doncaster carriages look alike, one can't tell if a train behind one of those strange-looking Stirling*, Ivatt, or G-----y machines is a Scotch express or merely some internal service.

*There is something not quite right about Patrick Stirling's engines to my prejudiced eyes. Which is odd, since I find the engines his brother James built for the G&SWR and the South Eastern, and those his son Matthew built for the Hull & Barnsley, quite handsome.

 

For those in the UK, here's a selection of Great Northern Victoriana:

https://player.bfi.org.uk/free/film/watch-railway-traffic-1898-online

https://player.bfi.org.uk/free/film/watch-queensbury-tunnel-1898-online

https://player.bfi.org.uk/free/film/watch-railway-traffic-1900-online

https://player.bfi.org.uk/free/film/watch-great-northern-railway-works-at-doncaster-1901-1900-online

 

By the bye, I should make it clear that I have no intention of modelling any GNER or even ECJS vehicles...

 

All Hail Hoole... :king:

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Using Rule 1 I have built a Clayton D526 Brake Composite which has been motor converted. The kit is a Stevenson's Coaches I got from eBay for less than what Squires want for their Stevenson kits. Until I get the Vol 2 of Midland Railway Carriages I've ordered I know little about these vehicles but I doubt any would have lasted into my time period 1935-39 let alone appeared in simple LMS livery. I've made the mistake of using gold numbers and lettering too which should be yellow but Rule 1 again! The roof still needs to fitted properly.

 

DSCF8501.JPG.9bff834cc07fc0d679753c3339607de5.JPG

 

DSCF8502.JPG.822a7dc0f335131275068b7d9b8007fb.JPG

 

 

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On 19/11/2021 at 18:56, Rowsley17D said:

Using Rule 1 I have built a Clayton D526 Brake Composite which has been motor converted. The kit is a Stevenson's Coaches I got from eBay for less than what Squires want for their Stevenson kits. Until I get the Vol 2 of Midland Railway Carriages I've ordered I know little about these vehicles but I doubt any would have lasted into my time period 1935-39 let alone appeared in simple LMS livery. I've made the mistake of using gold numbers and lettering too which should be yellow but Rule 1 again! The roof still needs to fitted properly.

 

D526 45 ft brake composites Nos. 3401, 3417, 3488,3521, 3543, 3567, and 3572 converted in 1907, along with D502 43 ft brake thirds Nos. 0334, 0413, 0444, 0475, 0500, 746, and 1131. "No record appears to exist of the period they continued to run, but it is hardly likely that they lasted much beyond the 1920s" [R.E. Lacy & G. Dow, Midland Railway Carriages Vol. 2 (Wild Swan, 1986) p. 315]. The brake composites were a single lot of 20, lot 109 of March 1884, whereas the brake thirds were built to several lots, ordered in 1882 and 1886 [R.E. Lacy & G. Dow, Midland Railway Carriages Vol. 1 (Wild Swan, 1986) p. 101]. The composites were therefore 23 years old at the time of conversion and the thirds either 21 or 25. I suspect that the ones with duplicate numbers (0-prefix) would have been from the 1882 lots. The book life of a Midland carriage seems to have been around 23 years. In December 1905, there were 368 4-wheel bogie carriages on the duplicate list, 22 first class (which is curious); 135 composite (probably including the majority of the 40 ft composites and brake composites); and 211 third class (probably including all the 40 ft carriages) - so, pretty much carriages built up to c. 1881/82, i.e. 23/24 years old [Midland Railway Study Centre Item 77-11822 "Valuation of Coaching Stock December 1905"].

 

A bit more can be learned by reading up on VCR-fitted locomotives [S. Summerson, Midland Railway Locomotives Vol. 1 (Irwell Press, 2000), p. 105]. Originally seven 0-6-0Ts of the 1102 class of 1874 were equipped (duplicate stock being used again) but these were evidently found unsatisfactory, being replaced by seven 0-4-4Ts of the 1252 class, built 1887/6. "When motor train working ceased in 1917, these engines had the fittings removed." The VCR gear was fitted to four 0-4-4Ts in 1923/4 but no more until the LMS decided to standardise on the VCR system at the end of 1926; 39 0-4-4Ts were equipped between 1927 and 1935 along with a number of ex-LNWR tank engines; it would seem that ex-LNWR motor trailers were converted to the VCR system at this time; conversions of ex-Birmingham District 48 ft brake thirds and composites of 1908/9 as driving trailers and trailers had taken place by 1931 [R.E. Lacy & G. Dow, Midland Railway Carriages Vol. 2 (Wild Swan, 1986) p. 472]; later some LMS standard 57 ft carriages were converted too. 

 

So it seems there were two periods of motor train operation, 1907-1917, using 1252 class 0-4-4Ts and D526 composites and D502 thirds, operating piggy-in-the-middle, and 1927 onwards when the LMS greatly expanded the use of motor trains, with the engine at one end. The unknown seems to be what motor services were worked by the four engines fitted with VCR gear in 1923/4 - did they use the 1907 converted carriages? 

 

There is an article in the queue for publication in the Midland Railway Society Journal on the LMS motor trains by Reg Instone, with another in preparation on the particularly complicated history of motor train operation on the S&DJR from 1927. (I have had sight of both these but none of the information above is drawn from them.)

 

One other engine was fitted with VCR gear in Midland days. When it was taken off the 0-4-4Ts in 1917, one set was fitted to 4-2-2 No. 600, the pioneer Johnson single, old No. 25 of 1887, along with a Deeleyesque cab, for working the General Superintendent's service car - converted from steam railmotor No. 2234. The VCR gear was taken off No. 600 in 1927, presumably to be recycled for one of the 0-4-4Ts converted in that year [S. Summerson, Midland Railway Locomotives Vol. 1 (Irwell Press, 2000), p. 99]:

 

62732.jpg

 

[Embedded link to catalogue thumbnail of Midland Railway Study Centre Item 62732.]

 

Rather annoyingly, neither this photo nor the well-known broadside view of the ensemble in works grey [MRSC Item 64184] show the VCR gear, since on Midland engines it was fitted on the left-hand side of the smokebox. (The LMS continued to fit it on the left-hand side of ex-Midland engines and also the 2P 0-4-4Ts but on the right-hand side on ex-LNWR engines.)

 

So, yes, elastic use of Rule 1. But I hope you've modelled the interior of the driving compartment:

 

1320763586_DY2271MotorTrainregulatorandbrake.jpg.733a305fa82fc4de7151b4e6a3912c20.jpg

 

[NRM DY 2271, released under the Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike (CC BY-NC-SA 3.0) licence by the National Railway Museum.]

 

 

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12 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

So, yes, elastic use of Rule 1. But I hope you've modelled the interior of the driving compartment:

 

1979637334_DY2271MotorTrainregulatorandbrake.jpg.01b85c477ffc744a1f7b0ba02e6e5012.jpg

 

[NRM DY 2271, released under the Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike (CC BY-NC-SA 3.0) licence by the National Railway Museum.]

 

 

 

I have put in the bits from the kit that were provided viz the hand brake and regulator, there was no vac brake. though the diagram in the instructions puts the regulator in the middle of the left-hand window.

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12 minutes ago, Rowsley17D said:

the diagram in the instructions puts the regulator in the middle of the left-hand window.

 

Interesting. Do you mean left-hand window as seen from the inside or the outside? The photo of the interior of a driving compartment was, I believe, taken in Derby works, certainly on 6 April 1908, so shows the equipment as first installed. Perhaps in the light of experience it was found more convenient to re-position the regulator - or possibly the instructions follow the later LMS layout (I don't know; I've no photos of that).

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18 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Interesting. Do you mean left-hand window as seen from the inside or the outside? The photo of the interior of a driving compartment was, I believe, taken in Derby works, certainly on 6 April 1908, so shows the equipment as first installed. Perhaps in the light of experience it was found more convenient to re-position the regulator - or possibly the instructions follow the later LMS layout (I don't know; I've no photos of that).

 

Left-hand window as in the photo. I take it the driver of the photo's arrangement was meant to stand and look out of the right-hand window as per driving a Midland engine? In a photo from c1933 on the rear of Scenes from the Past: 7 by J M Bentley the driver is in the middle window of a 4-compartment brake third (not sufficiently well-up to know what diagram) with what appears to be his hand on the brake lever. The train is within yards of the buffer-stops at Buxton.

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Having now got my copy of Lacy & Dow's Midland Railway Carriages Vol 2, there's a photo of the driving controls as per the diagram in the Stevenson instructions which is a mirror image of the one posted by @Compound2632 Stephen except the handrail-type pole is still near the right-hand window. This is one from the Derby Registers DY2274 but unfortunately the photo is not available online.

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4 hours ago, Rowsley17D said:

Having now got my copy of Lacy & Dow's Midland Railway Carriages Vol 2, there's a photo of the driving controls as per the diagram in the Stevenson instructions which is a mirror image of the one posted by @Compound2632 Stephen except the handrail-type pole is still near the right-hand window. This is one from the Derby Registers DY2274 but unfortunately the photo is not available online.

 

Apologies for missing that. The Derby Registers list two sets of photographs of the motor trains: DY 2268-71, taken on 6 April 1908 and featuring 1102 Class 0-6-0T No. 1632 (Lacy & Dow fig. 419); and DY 2272-74 taken nearly a year later on 24 March 1909, featuring 1252 Class 0-4-4T No. 1257 (Lacy & Dow fig. 420. The photo I posted is from the first set; the photo in Lacy & Dow, fig 418, is from the second set. The handbrake standard, vertical handrail, and vacuum regulator valve, gauge, and pipework are in the same position in both photos; it is just the vacuum brake valve, gauge, and pipework that are on the right in the 1908 photo and on the left in the 1909 photo. (I think the thin pipe and smaller gauge on the left in both is for the steam heating.) I suppose it is possible that the arrangement of the brake controls was changed but what seems to me much more likely is that the position of the existing vacuum brake piping was differently-handed on different vehicles - possibly different between the brake composites and the brake thirds. Unfortunately we don't know which type of carriage we're in in each photo! So I think the best bet, if you were to build a matching driving trailer third*, would be to arrange the brake control on the other side to that you've already made. Then you are likely to be either 100% right or 100% wrong, with no-one able to tell you one way or the other!

 

Lacy & Dow doesn't have much to say about steam heating but there's a chapter on it in S. Summerson, Midland Railway Locomotives Vol. 1 (Irwell Press, 2000). The Johnson & Bain steam heating system, using locomotive boiler steam reduced to 30psi, was standardised on in July 1903. It seems to me unlikely that such old carriages would have been at the front of the queue for fitting with steam heating, so my guess is this was part of the conversion to motor train driving trailers. Summerson records [Vol. 3] that when the 0-6-0Ts and subsequently the 0-4-4Ts were fitted with VCR equipment, those not already having the steam heating fittings were also given them. Summerson also records that the 0-6-0Ts were found unsatisfactory in part because of their small wheels - hot boxes were a problem - but also because of a strong surging motion experienced at around 15 mph. 

 

*which wouldn't be appropriate to your period anyway as the LMS didn't adopt the sandwich mode of operation, so you only need one driving trailer.

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Just to complete this section on motor fitted carriages here is converted D526 with roof glued on and vac pipe fitted. There was only one on the driving end.

 

DSCF8506.JPG.e557d43f57d698d83081811c4dabb239.JPG

 

The driver is just about visible in his cab.

DSCF8510.JPG.4a7bdbf826d6cc9677d1a12cbfbfaf5a.JPG

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More on steam heating of motor train carriages. The Derby Carriage & Wagon Drawing Register lists Drg. 3008, dated 8 April 1908, "Steam Heating Apparatus on Carriages for Steam Motor Service". This would tend to confirm that the fourteen converted carriages had not previously been equipped with steam heat. Unfortunately this drawing is not one that survives in the Midland Railway Study Centre's collection. It would appear from the posed photos of the motor trains that the steam heating connection was installed at both ends of the carriages (per @Rowsley17D's model) despite only the non-driving end being coupled to the engine.

 

There is a further drawing, Drg. 3416 of 6 December 1910, "Arrangement of Steam Heating Apparatus on Steam Motor Trailer" (not in the collection either) but from the use of the word "trailer" I think probably refers to the motor carriage trailer No. 2235, originally built to work with the steam railmotors of 1904 but at that time working on the Southwell branch.

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I've been shamefully idle on the carriage front. A reorganisation of my working area may, I hope, result in greater productivity. Over the Christmas holiday, No. 1 Son finally tidied his room enough for me to take over his desk, which means I can leave stuff out and spend five or ten minutes modelling without having to get everything out and then put it away again, as is the case with the dining-room table, or freeze in the draught from the permanently propped-open cat flap, as is the case in the kitchen. No. 1 Son is currently doing an M. Res, looking at what's under the Antarctic ice cap from the relative comfort of Durham and applying for Ph.D positions - possibly with a change of scene to the Greenland ice cap, as seen from Newcastle, so I've got reasonably good tenure.

 

Yesterday evening I took part in a L&NWR Society Zoom meeting at which David Maltman demonstrated his approach to 3D resin printing carriages, taking us through the CAD design stages and discussing how to get the best end result from the printer. The results do look good; perhaps he can be persuaded to share some photos on here (he is a member) - or possibly he does have a thread lurking somewhere that I've not found. There are some photos on the L&NWR Society Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/photo?fbid=900228899754&set=pcb.920144475340141.

 

His techniques - this whole technology - is by no means limited to LNWR carriages; equally applicable to the carriages of other companies! For myself, I'd be comfortable enough with the CAD side of things but a little wary of trying to introduce a resin printer into the domestic environment. 

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38 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

For myself, I'd be comfortable enough with the CAD side of things but a little wary of trying to introduce a resin printer into the domestic environment. 

 

If you are going to get a printer I would go for a filament one, and probably the best your funds can allow. Resin printers are quite a hassle and require significant cleanup of the prints afterwards due then having to have supports designed into them. They also can take ages and have a very limited build plate, probably a max length of 5 inches, where as your average filament printer I believe prints on a 12 x 12 inch plate. Also, you can always do the CAD and hire Shapeways to print them for you, however their prices aren’t exactly friendly.

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47 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

I've been shamefully idle on the carriage front. A reorganisation of my working area may, I hope, result in greater productivity. Over the Christmas holiday, No. 1 Son finally tidied his room enough for me to take over his desk, which means I can leave stuff out and spend five or ten minutes modelling without having to get everything out and then put it away again, as is the case with the dining-room table, or freeze in the draught from the permanently propped-open cat flap, as is the case in the kitchen. No. 1 Son is currently doing an M. Res, looking at what's under the Antarctic ice cap from the relative comfort of Durham and applying for Ph.D positions - possibly with a change of scene to the Greenland ice cap, as seen from Newcastle, so I've got reasonably good tenure.

 

Yesterday evening I took part in a L&NWR Society Zoom meeting at which David Maltman demonstrated his approach to 3D resin printing carriages, taking us through the CAD design stages and discussing how to get the best end result from the printer. The results do look good; perhaps he can be persuaded to share some photos on here (he is a member) - or possibly he does have a thread lurking somewhere that I've not found. His techniques - this whole technology - is by no means limited to LNWR carriages; equally applicable to the carriages of other companies! For myself, I'd be comfortable enough with the CAD side of things but a little wary of trying to introduce a resin printer into the domestic environment. 

 

Stephen,

You have probably followed @MikeOxon who has a printer and some very interesting ways of doing things.  The other way is a Silhouette cutter.  Although I have not got past doing sides, for my usual various reasons, the results I thought were quite impressive.  (Due to the technique rather than my skills.)

 

Hope fully, if No. 1 son is doing a PhD you may have the desk in perpetuity.  

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15 minutes ago, Florence Locomotive Works said:

If you are going to get a printer I would go for a filament one, and probably the best your funds can allow. Resin printers are quite a hassle and require significant cleanup of the prints afterwards due then having to have supports designed into them. They also can take ages and have a very limited build plate, probably a max length of 5 inches, where as your average filament printer I believe prints on a 12 x 12 inch plate. Also, you can always do the CAD and hire Shapeways to print them for you, however their prices aren’t exactly friendly.

 

The printer David is using is, I believe, an Elegoo Saturn. This is sufficient for the sorts of carriages he is doing in 4 mm scale - e.g. a 45 ft arc-roof third - though he did say that he could only print a 65 ft diner by making the entrance vestibules separate items. He prints the carriage body (in some cases including solebars and headstocks) with interior and makes the roof as a separate item (not necessarily by printing - he takes a pragmatic mixed-media approach). He prefers resin over plastic for the quality of the surface finish.

 

One of the really encouraging thing about that Zoom session was that several of the participants, including (to the best of my knowledge) David himself, are younger than me by a good margin.

 

6 minutes ago, ChrisN said:

You have probably followed @MikeOxon who has a printer and some very interesting ways of doing things.  The other way is a Silhouette cutter.  Although I have not got past doing sides, for my usual various reasons, the results I thought were quite impressive.  (Due to the technique rather than my skills.)

 

Yes, he and others and I have on my conscience the sides @chris p bacon cut for me... (see above). Those, and the close-coupled set they're intended for, are the first thing I should get back to. 

 

6 minutes ago, ChrisN said:

if No. 1 son is doing a PhD you may have the desk in perpetuity.  

 

Having done one myself I understand where that's coming from!

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9 minutes ago, Brassey said:

Shame they were running on the OO Dewsbury layout and not LNWR metals.

 

Needs must. I'm sure in some of the videos the spotters on the platform end have a very surprised expression on their faces!

 

David also has some rather nice Midland stuff...

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Hi Stephen 

 

This question seems more appropriate here than on the D299 thread.

 

Now that Slaters have re released 4 Misland Railway 6 wheel coach kits, what diagrams do they represent?

 

And any ideas of other types that could be produced from them?

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On 13/08/2022 at 18:50, Asterix2012 said:

Hi Stephen 

 

This question seems more appropriate here than on the D299 thread.

 

Now that Slaters have re released 4 Misland Railway 6 wheel coach kits, what diagrams do they represent?

 

And any ideas of other types that could be produced from them?

 

Apologies that I had not picked this up - it was posted when I was away on holiday (and came back to 30,000 notifications). The four types, all 31 ft long, are:

  • D493 third, 761 built 1882-1895 plus 10 built in 1882 for the MSJS and 1 built in 1888 to 4" narrower width for services to Leicester West Bridge;
  • D504 third brake, 153 built 1882-1892 plus 4 built in 1888 to 4" narrower width for services to Leicester West Bridge;
  • D516 composite, 200 built 1884-5 plus 25 built in 1882 for the MSJS and 2 built in 1888 to 4" narrower width for services to Leicester West Bridge;
  • D494 lavatory third, 42 built 1889-1890.

Many of the thirds and third brakes were built with short buffers (standard long buffers at the brake ends) for use in close-coupled local sets. These use 30 ft four-compartment firsts, of which 85 were built in 1882/3 (see posts earlier in this thread). More thirds and brake thirds were subsequently converted to short buffers and ran with 29 ft firsts of 1875-6 vintage. 

 

The relatively small number of composites was due to 170 29 ft and 30 ft composites having been built in the mid 1870s, which remained in service up to the end of the 19th century.

 

The lavatory thirds were part of a drive to provide lavatory accommodation on long-distance trains; this included converting compartments in other six-wheel and bogie carriages to a pair of compartments.

 

For suggestions on conversions to bogie carriages, see the opening posts in this topic. Conversion to 43 ft thirds and third brakes, D490 and D502, would be the most straightforward, but these are types for which etched brass kits are available.

 

Ref. R.E. Lacey and G. Dow, Midland Railway Carriages (2 vols., Wild Swan, 1986).

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On 13/08/2022 at 18:50, Asterix2012 said:

And any ideas of other types that could be produced from them?

 

Apart from converting the Slater's kits to other Midland diagrams, there's also the possibility of using them for Midland carriages sold on to other railways, colliery companies, etc.

 

The table below is a complete list of Midland carriages sold second-hand between 1905 and 1922, drawn from the minutes of the Carriage & Wagon Committee. Six-wheelers of the type represented by the kits are highlighted:

 

image.png.1c879a92f6d5042aca8b8812c2ad6cd3.png

 

John Wake of Darlington was a dealer in second-hand rolling stock; he also had a works equipped for wagon repairs and refurbishment, fitted out with machinery also bought second-hand from the Midland. In partnership with R.Y. Pickering & Co., the well-known Scottish wagon-building firm, and later with Ernest E. Cornforth of Stoke-on-Trent, he bought over 6,000 second-hand Midland wagons over this same period. Most of this stock will have been sold on to various industrial concerns for internal use but records seem to be few and far between.

 

In addition to all these, third class carriages identical to Midland D493 were built new for the S&DJR by Oldbury and Cravens in the early 1890s.

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5 hours ago, MrWolf said:

Interesting to discover that there were a lot more carriages sold to the Midland & South Western Junction Railway than I thought.

 

That line was very much a Midland protectorate - providing the company with a route to Southampton docks. The Midland paid (via loans) for the doubling of sections of the line. There was, I understand, a bit of a do when, in 1923, the LMS said to the GWR: we'll have our money back, thank-you.

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I did find it a bit strange that the government lumped the MSWJ in with the GW at grouping, but given the geographical location and the Swindon connection, I suppose that it was the logical decision.

I also often think that if we had gone back to the 1923-48 arrangement upon privatisation, the railways would be doing rather better and there would still have been a degree of government regulation.

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There's a topic on the M&SWJR that I have been posting in, chiefly re. Cheltenham, which turns out to be a particularly interesting location; in the joint carriage sidings at the north end of the passenger station one could have seen carriages of the Midland, M&SWJR, and S&DJR, as well as the odd GWR through carriage in passing trains:

 

 

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