Southern Coaching Stock Liveries 1950s and 1960s

[Mick Bonwick]

I have read (and bought) books and searched the Internet for information about which Southern coaches ran where and when in which liveries, but thought I should ask on RMweb as well.

 

I would like to run representative trains using a mixture of steam and diesel traction for the period approximating to 1950 to 1967 and have a selection of ready to run coaches, but seek guidance on what people think would be appropriate. I know (hope?) that there will be a lot of information produced in response to this question, but still look forward to looking through it.

 

If the question has already been asked and answered, if somebody could point me to the topic I'd appreciate it.

[Steamport Southport]

Have you found the Southern Railway E-mail Group's Internet Site?

 

Load of information on there including things like coach sets.

 

https://sremg.org.uk/

 

 

 

Jason

[Oldddudders]

I think there would be huge changes over the time-frame you have specified. In the early '50s, Bulleid coaches were still coming on stream, so they were displacing Maunsell stock on the better services, which then, in the usual fashion of a cascade, pushed Pre-Grouping stock into the sidings, where much of it was condemned. The introduction of BR Mk 1s did the same thing, swiftly ensuring that most mainline services had Post-war stock.

 

The next big change came in 1959, with Phase 1 of Kent Coast Electrification. This rendered Bulleid and Mk1 stock redundant in North Kent, and now the remaining Maunsell stock, by this time typically only found on secondary routes, was displaced by the resulting re-allocation. Completion of Phase 2 in 1961/2 meant even less loco-hauled stock in Kent, and the cascade of modern vehicles further pushed the Pre-War Maunsell stock off regular services.

 

In the mid-60s, a small number of Mk2 vehicles appeared on Southern, and by this time Bulleids were becoming unfashionable. Relatively few were in service by the time Bournemouth Electrification happened on 10.7.67.

[Mick Bonwick]

54 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

Have you found the Southern Railway E-mail Group's Internet Site?

 

Load of information on there including things like coach sets.

 

https://sremg.org.uk/

 

 

 

Jason

 

Thanks, Jason. I had found them previously, but have now applied for membership.

[Mick Bonwick]

51 minutes ago, Oldddudders said:

I think there would be huge changes over the time-frame you have specified.

 

 

Thanks, Ian. I needed to be able to justify the boxes of coaches that I seem to have accumulated.

 

I have gleaned quite a bit of information from black and white and colour photographs, but I am sure that there is more that I can use to assemble my trains. My aim is to avoid crimson and cream Maunsell stock running in the same train as a maroon Mk1 with an 'S' prefix, and other such unlikely combinations. I now await a colour photograph showing exactly that combination!

[Nearholmer]

Why not play the game the other way round: you tell us the stock you’ve got, and we can attempt to find excuses for it?

[Adam]

The key thing about coaching stock on the Southern is that they ran in fixed sets, so if anything, the formation of the coaches is as important as the colour they were painted (oh, and which bit of the Southern you're talking about, the three sections were quite different, reflecting their pre-Grouping origins - you can still see that in the state of Victoria which remains fundamentally two stations, a Brighton one and a South Eastern one with WHSmith in the middle).

 

So there were two-coach sets, three coach sets (which could be Maunsell, Bulleid or mark 1s but never a mixture), four coach sets and longer with a slew of loose coaches that were used to augment the sets. It's... complex.

 

Adam

[jim.snowdon]

1 hour ago, Adam said:

 

The key thing about coaching stock on the Southern is that they ran in fixed sets, so if anything, the formation of the coaches is as important as the colour they were painted (oh, and which bit of the Southern you're talking about, the three sections were quite different, reflecting their pre-Grouping origins - you can still see that in the state of Victoria which remains fundamentally two stations, a Brighton one and a South Eastern one with WHSmith in the middle).

 

 

And with a single crossover connecting the two. Apart from that interface, the signalling is entirely separate between the two sides of Victoria.

 

Jim

[Mick Bonwick]

1 hour ago, Adam said:

The key thing about coaching stock on the Southern is that they ran in fixed sets, so if anything, the formation of the coaches is as important as the colour they were painted

 

 

Thanks, Adam.

 

I am modelling Easton, on the Isle of Portland, so pretty much Central Section. My timetable (a rather grandiose name for a selection of train movements) includes some traffic from the Eastern and Western sections, but not very much.

 

I have the list of set numbers that I can use to determine which trains ran during which periods and contained which coaches, but not necessarily what livery colours those coaches would be carrying.

[Mick Bonwick]

33 minutes ago, jim.snowdon said:

And with a single crossover connecting the two. Apart from that interface, the signalling is entirely separate between the two sides of Victoria.

 

Jim

 

Thanks, Jim. Any trains running on my layout, if they have originated in London, will have come from Waterloo.

[Mick Bonwick]

1 hour ago, Nearholmer said:

Why not play the game the other way round: you tell us the stock you’ve got, and we can attempt to find excuses for it?

 

I like your thinking!

 

With one exception it is all ready to run stock, so Maunsell, Bulleid and Mk1. The exception is a Northstar pull-push set, no. 732. Most of it is Southern Region green, with some crimson and cream Maunsell. There will be some Bulleid crimson and cream as well, once it is produced.

[keefer]

There's also the Southern Railway special interest section which may be useful regarding coaching stock, as I think it covers older stock into BR(S) days.

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/forum/153-southern-railway-group/

[Nearholmer]

Was 732 an ex-LBSCR set? If so, that removes my concern that it might be a late-converted Maunsell set.

 

Anyway, sounds to me as if you could plausibly run all your stock together, provided it includes no very late-built variants of Mk1, assuming a date of c1957-59, when the livery change was going on.
 

As said earlier, forming things into plausible sets, even if not sets that are exactly numbered to any particular real ones, would help. Even on my “tinplate” train set I always run properly composed “three sets” when I can.

If you have any corridor brake composites, they might narrow your operations down a bit, because they weren’t all that common - ideal on their own or paired with a corridor brake second to make a ‘One set’ or ‘two set’ as a branch portion of the ACE though.

 

Edited September 1, 2020 by Nearholmer

[Oldddudders]

5 hours ago, Mick Bonwick said:

I am modelling Easton, on the Isle of Portland, so pretty much Central Section.

Err, no. South Western!

[Adam]

The sections of the Southern mirrored the pre-grouping companies: Eastern was the SECR, Central the LB&SCR, and Western the former L&SWR. This is *still* more or less reflected in the current franchises. So the boundaries are roughly Portsmouth and Hastings (and I suppose, formerly, Tunbridge Wells). 

 

So the Southern’s share of operations around Weymouth were part of the western section (though complicated by the relationship with the GWR).

 

Adam

Edited September 1, 2020 by Adam

[Wickham Green too]

8 hours ago, Adam said:

...... So there were two-coach sets, three coach sets (which could be Maunsell, Bulleid or mark 1s but never a mixture), four coach sets and longer with a slew of loose coaches that were used to augment the sets. It's... complex. ....

By this date there were quite a few mixed sets and the details will be found in the appropriate books from Gould & Mike King - many were in transition from Maunsell to Bulleid to Mk1 stock and were short lived in mixed formation but others survived for a while thus formed. Don't forget a) many sets were augmented for the summer season and the additions might not match the originals b) you can never have too many Corridor - or even Open - Thirds to stick on the end of your sets.

[Nearholmer]

The best free library when it comes to BR(S) at this period is the collection assembled by the late David Hey, which he very wisely made sure was archived on the wayback machine https://web.archive.org/web/20200221122437/http://www.davidheyscollection.com/

 

Be patient though, because the pages take absolutely ages to retrieve and load ........... patience is rewarded by some seriously interesting images and text.

[Mick Bonwick]

2 hours ago, Oldddudders said:

Err, no. South Western!

 

1 hour ago, Adam said:

So the Southern’s share of operations around Weymouth were part of the western section (though complicated by the relationship with the GWR).

 

I knew that!

[Mick Bonwick]

51 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

The best free library when it comes to BR(S) at this period is the collection assembled by the late David Hey, which he very wisely made sure was archived on the wayback machine https://web.archive.org/web/20200221122437/http://www.davidheyscollection.com/

 

 

 

Thanks, Nearholmer. I have seen plenty of good material in the David Hey collection in the past. I'll make a point of visiting again.

[Natalie]

Hi Mick

A worthy and potentially complicated subject indeed!

 

A good start would be to maybe get your hands on the 'standard' books on Southern Coaches such as the David Gould books for Oakwood or Mike King's for OPC, Crecy and KRB as there is a lot of info within including on repainting. I will sort a list out if you haven't got any of them.

 

An excellent website is bloodandcustard which you should find much of interest. One of the subsections covers Southern coaching stock which is being detailed with a lot of info from Glen Woods- who is also prominent on SReMG and SRLHCS- both on groups.io

 

Of potential interest are the following which detail the SR's repaint of Mk1 set from Crimson Lake and Cream to Southern Region Coach Green No 11. These have been copied from the records of Lancing Works. Glen has also compiled a book called 'Lancing 1956' which lists all the activities during that year at Lancing Works. This is purely text listing with no illustrations. There are some still available from the Bluebell Railway Museum Shop if of interest. I can supply a sample page shot to show you the format if required.

 

Mk1 3-car sets CLC to G livery change (British Rail Southern Region):   https://www.bloodandcustard.com/SR-CoachingSets-BR-ThreeSetsLiveries01.html  

 

Mk1 4-Cor sets CLC to G livery change (British Rail Southern Region):

https://www.bloodandcustard.com/SR-CoachingSets-BR-FourSetsLiveries01.html

 

Mk1 4-Cor Sets (British Rail Southern Region):  https://www.bloodandcustard.com/SR-CoachingSets-BR-FourSets.html

 

This is essentially the info on the Mk1 4Cor sets that was contained in the yearly SR Appendix to the Carriage Working Notice which details their formations and were they were allocated to work.

 

Bloodandcustard also has some pre-grouping and Southern set formations as well as the excellent histories/profiles of a lot of the Southern Electric units.

 

Don't forget the legendary 'varnishing' of the Southern which ensured some stock remained in unbranded Southern Railway liveries until well into the 1950s.

 

Have fun!

Edited September 2, 2020 by Natalie

[corneliuslundie]

I don't know if you will feel like investing in the book illustrated. There is a lot on the transition liveries of both locos and carriages. Unfortunately, the HMRS cannot take orders at the moment because Butterley site is closed, but you may find a copy from one of the specialist railway booksellers.

Jonathan

 

Edited September 2, 2020 by corneliuslundie

[wirey33]

You might want to spend a good long time reading this thread...

 

 

 

Edited September 2, 2020 by wirey33

[Mick Bonwick]

7 hours ago, Natalie said:

Hi Mick

A worthy and potentially complicated subject indeed!

.

.

.

Have fun!

 

Hi Natalie,

 

Many thanks for this response. I have several books from your suggested series and will now have a look at the blood and custard source. That looks to be very interesting.

[Mick Bonwick]

5 hours ago, corneliuslundie said:

I don't know if you will feel like investing in the book illustrated. There is a lot on the transition liveries of both locos and carriages.

 

 

Thanks, Jonathan. That is one I have yet to look at, although I had been made aware of its existence. Off to find a search engine . . . . . . . . . . .

 

[Mick Bonwick]

1 hour ago, wirey33 said:

You might want to spend a good long time reading this thread...

 

 

 

 

You're right, I might.

 

I shall definitely be going there. For some reason (RMweb's search facility?) I had not found this during previous searches, so many thanks for sending me there.