Class 88/93

[adb968008]

4 minutes ago, jpendle said:

Railway Herald reports this week that ROG are about to order 10 CL93's with an option for a further 20.

 

Regards,

 

John P

Expensive locos for hauling units about.

Maybe they are expecting an up tick in scrap unit dragging business over the next few years ?

 

[jpendle]

In the full article it talks about ROG competing for infrastructure and intermodal work.

 

Regards,

 

John P

[7013]

If they are cost effective in terms of fuel efficeincy, maintenance and flexibility etc. would it make sense for them to replace some of the older 'dirtier' locos doing infrastructure/intermodal work?

[adb968008]

Battery technology has come on a long way since the BEMU Derby Lightweight of the 1950’s..... it managed nearly 300 miles a day when new,  batteries do degrade with time, iirc at Bury this shrunk to around 40 miles over that 30 year period.. this still beats the class 230 today, Though it can be charged in 10 minutes.

Has there been any mention of range on batteries ?

As a long term loco, i’d assume battery replacement would be factored in.

Edited September 18, 2020 by adb968008

[MarshLane]

5 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

Battery technology has come on a long way since the BEMU Derby Lightweight of the 1950’s..... it managed nearly 300 miles a day when new,  batteries do degrade with time, iirc at Bury this shrunk to around 40 miles over that 30 year period.

Has there been any mention of range on batteries ?

As a long term loco, i’d assume battery replacement would be factored in.

 

I believe the battery technology is more about giving 'added' power for acceleration, and keeping systems ticking over during pauses in the journey, allowing the diesel emissions to be cut, rather than actually powering for any distance.

 

The same magazine - Railway Herald - also had an update a couple of weeks ago on the TfW Class 230 battery units saying that currently the battery type they are using are achieving 40 miles per charge, and with some cooling and development work, VivaRail feel that 100 miles per charge is quite achievable.  When you think of the weight of a two-car Class 230, against a Class 93 and freight, I suspect that operating mileage drops significantly, but I am certainly no expert on battery tech.  

 

Having said that the ROG article referred to by @jpendle in a previous post does say that there are four operating modes on the Class 93: OHL, diesel, battery and battery-diesel, so some form of movement on pure battery must be viable.

[TravisM]

I was talking with a friend about the Class 88 and the uncertainty about Dapol and their will they/won’t they produce a model?  He replied with a very valid comment that Hornby produced the “Clan’s” of which there was 10 as well as the “Duke of Gloucester” of which there was a single example. 
 

I could also mention the Franco-Crosti 9F’s which again there was only 10, and Gresley’s P2 2001, of which again there was only one example that was built in that style.  I know Hornby have a far bigger budget than a lot of the smaller manufacturers but I hope someone will pick up the ball and run with it.

[mdvle]

23 hours ago, jools1959 said:

I was talking with a friend about the Class 88 and the uncertainty about Dapol and their will they/won’t they produce a model?  He replied with a very valid comment that Hornby produced the “Clan’s” of which there was 10 as well as the “Duke of Gloucester” of which there was a single example. 
 

I could also mention the Franco-Crosti 9F’s which again there was only 10, and Gresley’s P2 2001, of which again there was only one example that was built in that style.  I know Hornby have a far bigger budget than a lot of the smaller manufacturers but I hope someone will pick up the ball and run with it.

 

It's not so much about how many prototypes were built, but how much demand there is for the model.

 

Extra liveries will normally mean more demand.

 

Similarly some prototypes are simply more popular, thus increasing the demand in model form.

 

The class 88 lacks liveries and isn't particularly popular, hence the hesitation (until once gets announced at any rate) to make one.

 

 

[TravisM]

33 minutes ago, mdvle said:

 

It's not so much about how many prototypes were built, but how much demand there is for the model.

 

Extra liveries will normally mean more demand.

 

Similarly some prototypes are simply more popular, thus increasing the demand in model form.

 

The class 88 lacks liveries and isn't particularly popular, hence the hesitation (until once gets announced at any rate) to make one.

 

 

Regarding the “Clan’s”, there was only ten, two styles of livery (early crest and later one) and are highly sort after.  Try finding one for less than £200, even tatty one’s command a high figure.

 

I think the Class 88 is hugely popular and you only have to look at the high amount of correspondence about this on here.

[MRDBLUE17]

I think the Class 88 is a much needed model for the current scene and I hope Dapol do eventually do it as the 68 is a very good model. They did say a few years back that it was certainly under consideration, but the single livery was a concern. I would add a couple to start with to the DRS fleet. 
 

cheers

Mark

[jpendle]

The livery thing always puzzles me.

 

There are 34 CL68's. I have 4 N gauge ones with another 3 on order.

I have a Scotrail loco and a TPE loco, the other 5 are DRS 'Fade' livery.

I'll get one more TPE liveried one, to go with my MK5A rakes and that will probably be that.

 

Now according to my little book (DRS 25 years), there are currently 14 in TPE livery and just 12 in DRS Fade livery, with 6 Chiltern and 2 Scotrail ones, and yet there's only one TPE liveried version available as a model.

 

I'd happily buy 4 CL88's in the same livery as long as they had different names and numbers.

 

Regards,

 

John P

[TomScrut]

I'd love an 88!

 

The thing about the 93 is actually how much commonality would there be with the 88?

 

I think I read somewhere that DRS own the "design" of the 68/88 so the ends etc would need to be different on the 93. On the other hand the 68 and 88 look like miniature versions of some of the bigger loading gauge Eurodual and Eurolight (but some look completely different).

 

Also the 88 subject has been discussed extensively here:

 

 

[frobisher]

10 hours ago, TomScrut said:

The thing about the 93 is actually how much commonality would there be with the 88?

 

I think I read somewhere that DRS own the "design" of the 68/88 so the ends etc would need to be different on the 93. On the other hand the 68 and 88 look like miniature versions of some of the bigger loading gauge Eurodual and Eurolight (but some look completely different).

 

The equipment differences between the 88 and the 93 would probably be more than sufficient to differentiate the designs.  The differences on the bodywork are likely to be minor and cosmetic as they current bodyshell has got its crashworthiness etc in the bag.

[7013]

Just a thought. If the 68 and the 88 are the same below the roof line as it were, could someone produce an 88 roof which the modeller could then swap for the 68 roof. I know it sounds easier that it would be in practice, but its just an idea.

[TomScrut]

18 minutes ago, 7013 said:

Just a thought. If the 68 and the 88 are the same below the roof line as it were, could someone produce an 88 roof which the modeller could then swap for the 68 roof. I know it sounds easier that it would be in practice, but its just an idea.

 

They aren't, as discussed in the thread I linked to above even the cab doors are different, grilles in the bodyside are in different places too. Superficially very similar (and not beyond what could probably be done with a modular mould, although whether it would be cheaper to start again is another matter) but in detail the bodies do vary quite a bit.

[TravisM]

9 minutes ago, TomScrut said:

 

They aren't, as discussed in the thread I linked to above even the cab doors are different, grilles in the bodyside are in different places too. Superficially very similar (and not beyond what could probably be done with a modular mould, although whether it would be cheaper to start again is another matter) but in detail the bodies do vary quite a bit.

As well as the under framework 

[TomScrut]

1 minute ago, jools1959 said:

As well as the under framework 

 

Yes that's not in the body mould though, so would be a separate part to replace.

[7013]

As I said.... just a thought, obviously wishful thinking.

[mdvle]

On 09/10/2020 at 18:17, jpendle said:

The livery thing always puzzles me.

 

At it's most basic, more livery options means more possible sales in model form.

 

But the catch is that there still needs to be sufficient demand for each livery, and that demand can often be influenced by outside factors - like appropriate rolling stock.

 

On 09/10/2020 at 18:17, jpendle said:

 

There are 34 CL68's. I have 4 N gauge ones with another 3 on order.

I have a Scotrail loco and a TPE loco, the other 5 are DRS 'Fade' livery.

I'll get one more TPE liveried one, to go with my MK5A rakes and that will probably be that.

 

Now according to my little book (DRS 25 years), there are currently 14 in TPE livery and just 12 in DRS Fade livery, with 6 Chiltern and 2 Scotrail ones, and yet there's only one TPE liveried version available as a model.

 

When Dapol announced the Class 68 models there was no Mk5A available in model form, so demand for the TPE livery was low - so only 1 version was justified based on sales potential.

 

Move forward, and the Mk5A was announced.  This created exceptional demand in OO for the TPE Class 68, and in the end Dapol responded by taking expressions of interest in a new run of TPE Class 68 model earlier than planned - and there obviously was enough demand as Dapol went ahead with the models.

 

In N things aren't as easy - it is a smaller market.  So unlike OO (where the TPE Cl68 went out of stock very quickly), there are still lots of the N TPE Cl68 still available new (and for that matter the other liveries in N are also still available).  Thus there is no market demand for Dapol to do another run when a minimum order would likely be in the thousands of models.  You can't remain a profitable business if you create more of what you still have unsold in your warehouse.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[TomScrut]

Yeah, in the case of the 68 the OO ones still knocking about tend to be the more oddball ones.

 

Chiltern - no appropriate mk3s to run with it, just the times they get to do DRS stuff.

 

68026 in DRS blue - Wasn't in it for long, isn't in it any more.

 

DRS compass locos - quite a lot have been done (at least 5, 68001, 68004, 68005, 68008 and 68034 from memory) so that will be why there are some left.

 

Unfortunately I doubt the demand for a DRS 88 would be as much as that for a DRS 68 which is probably only about 50% of what Dapol have done 68 wise.

[DRS Crewe On A Mission]

From a personal point of view I can't see their been a Class 88 even announced until the class in real life receive another one or two new liveries. Although DRS traction and liveries do seem to prove popular with myself and many others, I can't help but think that no manufacturer will commit to producing just one livery. I have reached the conclusion in my mind that even if the 88s in reality had one or two new liveries applied tomorrow, a manufacturer would most likely want to allow time for them to work in active service, to generate interest in the liveries, and then from an announcement it would most likely be 12 to 18 months before we would see them delivered in N and/or OO Gauge/s. With this in mind if we see an 88 in model form arrive before Q2/mid 2022 then I will be very, very surprised. The advantage of the 68 and that model announcement by Dapol in I think 2013 or 2014, was that their were already three liveries on the prototypes (DRS, ScotRail and Chiltern). Then, soon after other liveries were applied to the prototypes including the DRS Basic and Transpennine Express liveries. So their are at least five liveries that have been so far worn by the prototypes and subsequently produced by Dapol in OO Gauge. If you were to include DRS Plain Blue then that's six liveries, although as of yet Dapol haven't produced a plain blue 68. 

 

To add some balance, I do think that the 88 will be produced at some stage, given that Accurascale working with KMS RailTech have last week announced expressions of interest in the GBRf and Caledonian Sleeper 73/96s, and between just eleven locos, their are just two liveries. Plus, the Caledonian Sleeper livery is very restricted in terms of what coaches and wagons the prototypes work with. In fact I have never seen a Caledonian Sleeper 73 work with anything other than the CS branded MK5 stock. So, from my perspective if this project goes ahead and is given the green light to proceed I would expect the 88 to follow as soon as just one or two new liveries are applied to the prototypes. Especially, given that the 88s are more flexible in terms of what coaches and wagons they work with. For example DRS 88s have worked with Network Rail coaching stock, intermodal wagons (I presume IDAs and IKAs), Nuclear Flask FNAs and newer FNDs and Northern Belle coaching stock, and most likely other stock which I can't remember. In all, I think we will see an 88 produced at some stage in model form, but I would be very surprised if it was delivered within the next 18 months. 

 

Kind Regards, 

 

Danny. 

[vanbasher]

Danny, you raise a good point reference liveries & maybe the announcement of a Class 88 being at the present time a little too soon. However just to point out the CS Class 73/9's have also worked with both the ex First Scotrail Caledonian Sleeper Mk2's & MK3's & of course a pair have visited Boness' Diesel Gala & have worked with standard MK1's. The locos Dellner coupling which are used for knitting them to CS MK5's can be lowered making them a loco which can work on just about anything. So in the world of model railways where imagination is key, the 73's can indeed be utilised on just about anything. 

 

Regards,

 

Tom.

Edited October 18, 2020 by vanbasher
Grammar correction

[DRS Crewe On A Mission]

2 hours ago, vanbasher said:

Danny, you raise a good point reference liveries & maybe the announcement of a Class 88 being at the present time a little too soon. However just to point out the CS Class 73/9's have also worked with both the ex First Scotrail Caledonian Sleeper Mk2's & MK3's & of course a pair have visited Boness' Diesel Gala & have worked with standard MK1's. The locos Dellner coupling which are used for knitting them to CS MK5's can be lowered making them a loco which can work on just about anything. So in the world of model railways where imagination is key, the 73's can indeed be utilised on just about anything. 

 

Regards,

 

Tom.

 

Hi Tom, 

 

Thank you for mentioning that the Caledonian Sleeper 73s had worked with the MK2s and MK3s, I had forgotten about that. Also I didn't know that they had worked with MK1s, so thank you for posting this too. 

 

Yes I definitely think that once the 88s are adorned into one or two new liveries, then we will see Dapol or possibly another manufacturer announce and commit to producing them. But for the time being whilst none of the prototypes are gaining a new livery, I think it would be difficult for any manufacturer to justify and commit to producing ten locos in just one livery. But certainly if the GBRf and CS 73/96s go ahead I don't see why the 88s won't in time. 

 

Kind Regards, 

 

Danny. 

[vanbasher]

2 hours ago, DRS Crewe On A Mission said:

 

Hi Tom, 

 

Thank you for mentioning that the Caledonian Sleeper 73s had worked with the MK2s and MK3s, I had forgotten about that. Also I didn't know that they had worked with MK1s, so thank you for posting this too. 

 

Yes I definitely think that once the 88s are adorned into one or two new liveries, then we will see Dapol or possibly another manufacturer announce and commit to producing them. But for the time being whilst none of the prototypes are gaining a new livery, I think it would be difficult for any manufacturer to justify and commit to producing ten locos in just one livery. But certainly if the GBRf and CS 73/96s go ahead I don't see why the 88s won't in time. 

 

Kind Regards, 

 

Danny. 

Hi Danny,

 

My pleasure, can definitely see where you're coming from on you logic with the 88's. Who knows if DRS maybe decide to repaint a couple for Intermodal operations or if by some very slim miracle a passenger operator sees the potential in them (they do have all the necessary equipment ETS etc) then more liveries may follow. For now though, I'm happy with Dapol's 68's & can certainly hang on for the day an RTR manufacturer takes the plunge.

 

Regards, 

 

Tom. 

[TomScrut]

I suppose the question could be how busy are the 88s at the moment? If all 10 are busy then there probably won't be any scope for an operator to want them.

 

Unfortunately the power under diesel isn't significant enough to be bi mode in terms of pulling passenger trains at 100mph. I'd have thought something in the 93 configuration would be ideal for TPE instead of 68s, at least on the Redcar services.

 

In the government's suggestions for decarbonisation the whole of the Transpennine route would be electrified I think (although I am sceptical as to if or when that would be) meaning actually would the 88s be a better match for the mk5s?

 

Only thing I can think of for the 88 on passenger at the moment with the infrastructure as it is would be if DRS tendered for and won CS next time round.

[DRS Crewe On A Mission]

9 hours ago, vanbasher said:

Hi Danny,

 

My pleasure, can definitely see where you're coming from on you logic with the 88's. Who knows if DRS maybe decide to repaint a couple for Intermodal operations or if by some very slim miracle a passenger operator sees the potential in them (they do have all the necessary equipment ETS etc) then more liveries may follow. For now though, I'm happy with Dapol's 68's & can certainly hang on for the day an RTR manufacturer takes the plunge.

 

Regards, 

 

Tom. 

 

I agree. I'm really happy with the Dapol 68s, so I'm not in a massive rush to have some DRS 88s, although in the long term they would be great to have in model form. I am sure that as and when the sphere of DRS operations expand to include more demand for Class 88 traction, then as you say their is more of an incentive to apply customer liveries as DRS have done with numerous other locos and classes. Their is also every chance of a new or revised Compass livery. I mean look at all of the DRS and Compass liveries that DRS locos have worn over the years. It tends to only be a few years before DRS update their Compass livery. 

 

Kind Regards, 

 

Danny. 

 

9 hours ago, TomScrut said:

I suppose the question could be how busy are the 88s at the moment? If all 10 are busy then there probably won't be any scope for an operator to want them.

 

Unfortunately the power under diesel isn't significant enough to be bi mode in terms of pulling passenger trains at 100mph. I'd have thought something in the 93 configuration would be ideal for TPE instead of 68s, at least on the Redcar services.

 

In the government's suggestions for decarbonisation the whole of the Transpennine route would be electrified I think (although I am sceptical as to if or when that would be) meaning actually would the 88s be a better match for the mk5s?

 

Only thing I can think of for the 88 on passenger at the moment with the infrastructure as it is would be if DRS tendered for and won CS next time round.

 

In terms of availability their tends to be as a general rule of thumb a few in use daily now. I find that three feature daily on the Daventry to Mossend and return intermodal workings. Their is usually two trains going one way and the third going the other way, all been hauled by a single 88 at the moment. Their also tends to be a pair of 88s featuring on nuclear trains recently too, and this is becoming more and more common and no doubt it will continue for the immediate future at least with the RHTT season here and the requirements for many locos for those trains. Their is also sometimes a sixth 88 in action on wagon runs between Kingmoor and Motherwell and return, transporting wagons on and off repair. This tends to leave four either available for use or on exam, maintenance or repair at Crewe and Kingmoor. So realistically at the moment with just ten their doesn't appear to be the capacity for their to be a significant amount of locos available for other contracts such as TPE if that was to ever happen in the medium to long term future. In the long term again, I doubt that with current availability averaging at around four locos per day, but this including the locos on exam, maintenance and repair. that their would be enough to cover a large contract alike the Caledonian Sleeper. GBRf have several of their 73s and 92s for those trains and with the 73s sometimes, even with six locos they don't always have enough locos to work the services which is why occasionally one 73 may be swopped for a 66, so to just utilise one 73 as opposed to two to operate with the MK5s, obviously which a 66 alone cannot do. Obviously if DRS placed an order for additional 88s issues regarding availability and capacity for the 88 fleet and any future/potential contracts for the fleet wouldn't be an issue. I suppose we will have to wait and see. 

 

Kind Regards, 

 

Danny.