Mosston over Moss: Building a Coarse Scale garden railway

[Happy Hippo]

6 hours ago, Florence Locomotive Works said:

The mogul would be impossible to fix, it would require taking one of the boiler ends off which is beyond me. The Bing engine is clockwork, something I know fairly well having been fixing both clocks and toys with such a drive system since I was 7. It’s also a bit safer than live steam, and can be run in the garden. And to be completely honest, I’m getting a bit tired of messing about with boilers, valve timing, lamp wicks, solid fuel etc. Maybe that’s just the “Gen Z” in me or my lack of success with such things, mostly down to my own stupidity. 

Starting the statement by saying it's impossible to fix, is  very negative.  Saying that it requires attention to the boiler which is beyond your present capabilities would be a much more accurate appraisal.

 

You've been working successfully with tinplate and clockwork for about a decade, so to say that your lack of success with live steam models is down to your stupidity just won't wash!

 

You are not stupid,  what you are is inexperienced in what is a niche field.  There are a great many modellers out there who dream of, but never get around to messing around with live steam, so you are in a small group.  Add to that your tender years, and the fact you have no local mentor, and your inexperience becomes a struggle.

 

When we start learning we start out as an unconscious incompetent.  We don't know anything and can't do anything.

We then progress to the conscious incompetent, where we know what we should be doing but haven't mastered the skills required.

What we want to be is the conscious competent where we know what we are doing and know how to do it.

What we don't want to be is the unconscious competent, where you don't think but can do it.  You are now functioning automatically to do a task without really thinking about it.

 

That final state of mind is what gets someone tangled up with a spinning drill chuck on a press, or cutting themselves with a hand tool.

 

I'd hazard a guess that when it comes to tinplate clockwork, you are at the conscious competent level.

For live steam you're still in the conscious incompetent stage, so mistakes you're making are more likely do to with lack of knowledge.

 

There is a big difference between ignorance and stupidity.

 

Now why does the boiler end have to come off?

 

 

Edited September 6, 2020 by Happy Hippo

[Nearholmer]

Well said that man!

 

I certainly bnggered-up a good few things in my time through ignorance and ineptitude, and still do occasionally, but the disaster-rate definitely decreases with experience.

 

Live steam, especially finicky meths-fired locos, is really best learned in a group, from old hands ...... which may be a challenge in present times I realise.

 

 

Edited September 6, 2020 by Nearholmer

[Il Grifone]

It was obviously originally a Hughes Mogul*, but has undergone some redesign over the years. As a Stanier Mogul it should indeed have a taper boiler, but this is probably asking too much of a live steam model. The BR number is that of a Stanier Mogul.

 

* These have characteristic steeply inclined cylinders absent from the model.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LMS_Hughes_Crab

Edited September 6, 2020 by Il Grifone

[Florence Locomotive Works]

4 hours ago, Happy Hippo said:

Starting the statement by saying it's impossible to fix, is  very negative.  Saying that it requires attention to the boiler which is beyond your present capabilities would be a much more accurate appraisal.

 

You've been working successfully with tinplate and clockwork for about a decade, so to say that your lack of success with live steam models is down to your stupidity just won't wash!

 

You are not stupid,  what you are is inexperienced in what is a niche field.  There are a great many modellers out there who dream of, but never get around to messing around with live steam, so you are in a small group.  Add to that your tender years, and the fact you have no local mentor, and your inexperience becomes a struggle.

 

When we start learning we start out as an unconscious incompetent.  We don't know anything and can't do anything.

We then progress to the conscious incompetent, where we know what we should be doing but haven't mastered the skills required.

What we want to be is the conscious competent where we know what we are doing and know how to do it.

What we don't want to be is the unconscious competent, where you don't think but can do it.  You are now functioning automatically to do a task without really thinking about it.

 

That final state of mind is what gets someone tangled up with a spinning drill chuck on a press, or cutting themselves with a hand tool.

 

I'd hazard a guess that when it comes to tinplate clockwork, you are at the conscious competent level.

For live steam you're still in the conscious incompetent stage, so mistakes you're making are more likely do to with lack of knowledge.

 

There is a big difference between ignorance and stupidity.

 

Now why does the boiler end have to come off?

 

 

Thanks HH,

 

I don’t know if you remember when I drilled a hole accidentally through the lubricator do you? Well I did that and more apparently. The steam line from the boiler apparently also goes into a right angle in the lubricator and continues down to the regulator, through the oil tank. Well I found out yesterday after much close examining that I had drilled through both the vertical pipe (inside the oil tank, which is made of a pressing, and is part of the front boiler end plate), and plugged both with some wood. I and a few others deemed it impossible to fix owing to the complexity of actually getting to the hole which is inside the oil tank. Said oil tank is made two half’s pressed on to each and crimped, and one half is also integral with a boiler end. It may not impossible to fix, however I think it wise before I attempt to do so I should build up my skills as a precaution.  
 

On the subject of this engines basis, I can confirm they started off as LMS Hughes Crabs’  and later began to look like Stanier moguls after the LMS released those. The Crab versions also had proper opening smokebox doors.

[Happy Hippo]

I'd be tempted to chop the lubricator off it's mounting brackets and rework the pipes  into a new displacement lubricator in the smoke box.

 

the pipe that comes out of the boiler for the lubricator can be sleeved and another pipe added to run through the new lubricator.

 

Don't bother with a drain in the bottom of the new lubricator, just fill it with a syringe.  The oil, forced into the bottom of the lubricator body, will displace any remaining condensate out.

[Florence Locomotive Works]

This is what a chap who rebuilds them told me.

 

You will have to remove the boiler to fix the damage.

Remove the pressure gauge which has taken the place of the whistle on your model, and pull back the 4 tin tabs holding the plate at the front of the inside of the cab (if one was fitted), then the only thing holding the boiler in place is the steam pipe going to the middle position on the reversing block. Unsolder it and pull out the boiler. Unsolder the other end of the pipe from the oil tank and remove it. Make up a new piece of 1/8" copper pipe to match the old one, and CAREFULLY drill a hole into the wall of the pipe in the same place that the original had. Repair the hole you drilled in the oil tank wall with a patch soldered over it made of thin sheet brass or tin. Then solder the new pipe back in place making sure it is positioned with the exact same length protruding out.

        When you replace the boiler put a small cushion of cardboard between the boiler and the saddle that the front of the boiler rests on, so that there is about 1/16" gap between the boiler and saddle (this is to allow expansion when the boiler gets hot). Then resolder the pipe to the reversing block.

        Before resoldering, make sure the oil tank and pipes have no traces of oil on them inside or out and are clean and dry.

So I think I’ll mess about with clockwork for a year or so, as that is beyond me right now. 

[Florence Locomotive Works]

Good candidate for a bit of touching up and restoration methinks. Strangely someone has put a Hornby badge on the tender.

I would be repainting the buffers beams and polishing the brass bits to a reasonable standard, and maybe reline the tender. 

Edited September 6, 2020 by Florence Locomotive Works

[Nearholmer]

Im 90% certain that it’s a Hornby No.2 tender, which would explain why it has a Hornby badge.

[Florence Locomotive Works]

30 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

Im 90% certain that it’s a Hornby No.2 tender, which would explain why it has a Hornby badge.

Yes I see that now, after watching @sncf231es excellent video of his double heading with a BL Duke of York, if memory serves. 
 

 

[Happy Hippo]

5 hours ago, Florence Locomotive Works said:

This is what a chap who rebuilds them told me.

 

You will have to remove the boiler to fix the damage.

Remove the pressure gauge which has taken the place of the whistle on your model, and pull back the 4 tin tabs holding the plate at the front of the inside of the cab (if one was fitted), then the only thing holding the boiler in place is the steam pipe going to the middle position on the reversing block. Unsolder it and pull out the boiler. Unsolder the other end of the pipe from the oil tank and remove it. Make up a new piece of 1/8" copper pipe to match the old one, and CAREFULLY drill a hole into the wall of the pipe in the same place that the original had. Repair the hole you drilled in the oil tank wall with a patch soldered over it made of thin sheet brass or tin. Then solder the new pipe back in place making sure it is positioned with the exact same length protruding out.

        When you replace the boiler put a small cushion of cardboard between the boiler and the saddle that the front of the boiler rests on, so that there is about 1/16" gap between the boiler and saddle (this is to allow expansion when the boiler gets hot). Then resolder the pipe to the reversing block.

        Before resoldering, make sure the oil tank and pipes have no traces of oil on them inside or out and are clean and dry.

So I think I’ll mess about with clockwork for a year or so, as that is beyond me right now. 

Well that's helpful up until the point he neglects to tell you what the hole size should be in the pipe wall.

 

Initially try a No 77 or No 76 drill, so the hole size will end up as as 0.018 (0.46 mm) to 0.020 ( 0.51 mm).

 

It only has to be a very small hole

[Florence Locomotive Works]

Well chaps I have decided to persevere and follow HH’s and the other guys instructions on how to fix the mogul. So far I have only unsoldered one end of the problem pipe.

[Florence Locomotive Works]

Errrr right after closer examination I will not be repairing the mogul after all. 

[Florence Locomotive Works]

This is because the boiler is soldered into a fake tapering firebox and boiler barrel, and unsoldering it would destroy the paint on both the cladding and the cab. 

[Florence Locomotive Works]

Yesterday I finished making this slightly crude looking Meccano station canopy/train shed, for use both indoors and out. I may add some more ornateness to it, some fake lamps perhaps. 

[Florence Locomotive Works]

New motive power has been acquired to replace the Mogul, which has been put on display, sadly. Said new motive power is this 1923 Bing for Bassett Lowke LMS liveried LNWR George the Fifth. The original Bing tender has been lost and replaced with a Hornby one, which made the engine much cheaper. Said new tender needs renumbering and touching up on the frames. As does the engine. Hopefully some Ace Trains LMS liveried coaches can be acquired soon, as my BR mk 1s may look a bit off. Or some Ace wagons, not terribly prototypical but coarse scale isn’t really for that, IMHO.

[Nearholmer]

I'm not totally up on these things, but is that loco in Midland, rather than LMS livery? I think it might have a Midland crest, the LMS one being enclosed in a circular garter. If so, I think it might be one of the less common variants, of which there seem to be so many that nobody has counted.

[Florence Locomotive Works]

1 hour ago, Nearholmer said:

I'm not totally up on these things, but is that loco in Midland, rather than LMS livery? I think it might have a Midland crest, the LMS one being enclosed in a circular garter. If so, I think it might be one of the less common variants, of which there seem to be so many that nobody has counted.

It does appear that it may actually be a midland variant, which is one I’ve never seen. Here’s a photo of the LMS version. The livery is identical accept for the crest, which will be examined further when the engine arrives. I think I would still run it as an LMS engine though, for the sake of convenience.

 

[Nearholmer]

I think the Midland ones were numbered 513.  Absence of a name tends to confirm its Midlandness.

 

Possibly the weirdest-looking ones are the Great Western version.

[Florence Locomotive Works]

Well I suppose that I can now choose my own nameplates and number then. I’m thinking 2081 New Zealand.

[Nearholmer]

You might want to think carefully about conserving, rather than amending, it if it is a Midland one. The basic tab and slot LNWR versions are common enough, and freely available in very tatty condition*, that messing about with them is no sin, but the other versions might be considered a bit more worthy of conservation.

 

*mine being very tatty indeed!

[Florence Locomotive Works]

51 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

You might want to think carefully about conserving, rather than amending, it if it is a Midland one. The basic tab and slot LNWR versions are common enough, and freely available in very tatty condition*, that messing about with them is no sin, but the other versions might be considered a bit more worthy of conservation.

 

*mine being very tatty indeed!

Well its definitely a midland version. They were numbered 1000, so were masquerading as Compound 1000, which would drive me insane. So I think I might just paint a circle around the emblem and call it and LMS engine, and renumber the tender. However I will omit the nameplates. I suppose some collectors might have just fell out of there chairs reading that, but oh well. You can rarely make both yourself and everyone happy. 

[Nearholmer]

For goodness sake do it in water soluble paint, so the next chap can clean it off easily. We are but temporary custodians of these old crocks.

 

I'm going to pose some questions to the Classic 0 crew about the number, because I've certainly seen one with 513 in a script that looked right, whereas that 1000 doesn't look quite kosher to me.

[Florence Locomotive Works]

15 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

For goodness sake do it in water soluble paint, so the next chap can clean it off easily. We are but temporary custodians of these old crocks.

 

I'm going to pose some questions to the Classic 0 crew about the number, because I've certainly seen one with 513 in a script that looked right, whereas that 1000 doesn't look quite kosher to me.

I most certainly will, and I agree with in thinking the tender is a bit suspicious. 

Edited September 7, 2020 by Florence Locomotive Works

[Il Grifone]

She should be black of course....

 

Hat and coat collected....

[Mark Carne]

A maroon tender numbered 1000 is indeed the correct tender for a Midland GTF, the funniest bit about them being most of them had the 1000 printed upside down on one side, so have a factory bodge of the 1 painted out and a new 1 painted on, on one side.

 

Mark