Docklands Sidings - Restoring photo's!

[sb67]

I'm a bit stuck as to my next layout, as Ruston Sidings is almost complete I've been thinking about what next. For years I've been squirreling away loco's and rolling stock and I  think it's time now to build something that I can run a lot of it on. It must be/have;

Goods yard/sidings 

Not too specific in era/location, between the 70's 80's but wouldn't look too out of place with green diesels and short wheelbase stock.

A plain siding that could be used for practically anything

Able to run parcel stock.

I've looked at a few photos of inspiring goods yards but I always struggle to transfer them to layout form and there's a couple of layouts that I really like but don't wish to copy them exactly. 

Another restriction is it's got to fit on my Ikea shelf baseboard which is 6ftx10in. I want to use that board although the width is a bit tight. 

I've narrowed it down to a couple of plans.

 

Plan 1 trains arrive from the fiddle yard B using line A. The shunter draws the wagons back using B as a head shunt then shuffles wagons to D or the middle siding C. I'm  not to sure of the viewing perspective yet, I'm thinking of D being the rear of the layout and maybe a platform for my parcels etc.

I think with this plan I could use larger locos and air braked VDA's etc.

 

Plan 2 is a basic run round loop with a couple of sidings off it. The main drawback with this plan is the size of the trains I could run, even with some tweaking I think its more suited to smaller locos and short wheelbase stock although after building a few part run rounds I quite like the idea of seeing a full run round loop.

 

I just wondered what your thoughts were? 

 

 

Edited September 4, 2020 by sb67

[Zomboid]

What's the purpose of this layout? Is it for exhibiting or home use?

 

If it's going to stay at home, why not have the whole thing scenic, and operate it between the moment that the train arrives on scene and the moment when it's about to leave? Not having to use half the space as "the rest of the world" would allow the modelled bit much more room to breathe.

[sb67]

2 hours ago, Zomboid said:

What's the purpose of this layout? Is it for exhibiting or home use?

 

If it's going to stay at home, why not have the whole thing scenic, and operate it between the moment that the train arrives on scene and the moment when it's about to leave? Not having to use half the space as "the rest of the world" would allow the modelled bit much more room to breathe.

 

That is a really interesting idea, I've always had a fiddle yard and like seeing trains arrive "on stage" but I guess if it stays at home there might not be a need.

[Zomboid]

A great example of the approach is Lance Mindheim's LAJ layout 

https://lancemindheim.com/model-railroads/los-angeles-junction-railway/

Obviously it's American HO, basically an inglenook in terms of track, and a good amount of why it looks so good is because he's very good at making model railways, but the principle is the same.

 

The idea being that all the fun of the layout is the shunting/switching. Just bringing a train in under a bridge from the FY adds nothing to the play value. And when you then are shunting, the loco is off scene half the time.

 

I don't think it would work so well if you wanted to run multiple trains at the same time, but in 6x1 there's not a lot of scope for that.

 

My first layout recently was on that basis (4'6" x 1', an all "scenic" 3-2-2 inglenook) and I never missed having a FY.

[sb67]

Thanks Zomboid I'll check that out. One of the layouts that inspires me is Neptune St Yard, it has a scenic sector plate as a fiddle yard and is very effective. 

[mdvle]

If, as it appears in your case, the "fiddle yard" isn't so much a yard but just a bit of track for the train to enter/exit then perhaps have the track come to the front of the layout, and when operating attach a length of track to the front of the layout so the train can enter/exit while still being able to devote your entire shelf to a scenic operating area.

[The Johnster]

I personally don't like the Inglenook concept as it does not represent any real railway operation and is simply a shunting puzzle mental exercise, and my mindset is that life is complex enough without introducing more puzzles to it.  I get that such activity is good brain exercise and see why many people enjoy it, but it's not for me.  My trains serve a commercial purpose, and therefore the 'rest of the world' must be there beyond a scenic break.  I therefore prefer the second plan, but would alter it thus; the run around could be extended in both directions by having the tiebar of the entry turnout to it directly beneath the left hand parapet of the scenic break bridge and the tiebar of the loco release turnout at the other end of the loop moved about six inches to the right, still leaving room for an 08.

 

With the turnout to the bottom siding replaced by a single slip or a diamond crossing if there's room a further kickback siding can be put in, and this could be regarded as an extension to the run around loop; the idea is that this is a constrained site and that unusual track formations have had to be employed to deal with it.  I see it as part of an industrial complex of small concerns or maybe part of a docks system, which would be an excuse for the NPCCS.  Docks have pumphouses for the hydraulics to work lock gates or swing bridges, an excuse for coal or fuel oil deliveries to one of your buildings,  I like the curved sidings, which will enhance the impression of restricted space.

[Zomboid]

1 hour ago, The Johnster said:

personally don't like the Inglenook concept as it does not represent any real railway operation and is simply a shunting puzzle mental exercise

You can use it as a puzzle, but you don't have to. I did something use it as the puzzle, but I also used it as a proper main and two sidings affair, with a proper switch list and car spots. The only thing "missing" was a run in and out of the modelled scene, which would have needed twice as much space for almost no extra fun. I didn't have one, but a bridge beyond which the rest of the world could have lain would be easy to have, without any need to actually run trains though it.

 

I'm not saying that the OP should do what I did, just that having a FY area would take up about half of what is really not a big area, and that space could be used as part of the scene if we suspend disbelief in a different manner to how we conventionally do so.

[The Johnster]

I'd agree that a simple one road removable fiddle stick, about a foot long, enough for 08 and 3 wagons, would allow extra space and represent the ROTW, assuming he has room to the left end of the layout for it.  I have no axe to grind at Inglenooks incorporated into layouts, but do when they are simply 3 roads and a headshunt in magnificent isolation; nothing goes anywhere or comes from anywhere, it doesn't make sense, and to me pointless despite having two turnouts!

 

The stock could be crane shunted off the fiddle stick or the whole thing used as a cassette and replaced by another cassette with another train on it, or simply turned and put back.

[Flying Pig]

5 hours ago, The Johnster said:

nothing goes anywhere or comes from anywhere, it doesn't make sense, and to me pointless despite having two turnouts!

 

Nothing really goes anywhere on your layout either: it just moves a couple of feet to hide behind a backscene.  That's just one way of suspending disbelief: it isn't reality.

 

[The Johnster]

No, of course not, it’s a theatrical trick, presentation, exit stage left, pursued by a bear.  But when you can see the entire railway network and that it consists of 3 roads and a headshunt, as you do with a pure Inglenook, it is for me impossible to believe the illusion; the whole thing is there in front of you, obvious and, because you know that no real railway consists of 3 self contained sidings sharing a headshunt, clearly wrong. 
 

I’m not saying Inglenooks in their pure  form are wrong, only that they are wrong for me personally.

[DCB]

I don't  think either plan has any advantage over an ordinary 3 road 2 point inglenook.

The loop is too short to be meaningful on the lower and the  A road pretty useless on the top.

If you like shunting with a loco creeping around slowly then an inglenook has a lot going for it. a dozen short wheelbase wagons with Kadee or magni simplex couplings on the layout plus a dozen or so spares to ring the changes, a shunting engine and a coupe of dozen more to ring the changes and you can indulge in some relaxation or frustration.  You don't really even need a controller, just a coupe of AA batteries and two push buttons, one for forward and one reverse.

I would scenic the entire layout and choose my stock at the start of the session and just run a few minutes while you wait for the other half to get your tea, vacate the bathroom etc  Its more a 10 minute or half hour thing than a proper 5 hour operating session thing, with a few cups of coffee/ cans of lager and ham sandwiches, if that's your thing.  Still you might get time to operate. I have been building a layout for 35 years and seldom get a chance to operate between adding stuff and fixing faults.  

It could be fun shunting with an old 2-4-0 or something equally unlikely like a Royal Scot which I think used to sometimes do the Harrisons sidings shunt near Shap towards the end of steam

[sb67]

There's some interesting ideas here. I'm thinking more that a run round loop will be too small for the stock I want to run and I like the idea of a train being drawn on to the main yard and the loco having to be released by a shunter. 

I've seen a fantastic layout, Shepcote Lane Tippler Sidings,  that uses much the same plan as the top one, albeit a steelworks and I also like the idea of a loading platform somewhere on the layout. I've also been looking through some ideas by Paul Lunn in his Making Tracks book and thinking how I could adapt/incorporate them. 

Edited September 7, 2020 by sb67

[Keith Addenbrooke]

Hi Steve, for Parcels Stock in a 70’s / 80s setting I’d go for the first plan - a typical urban scheme might have a retaining wall for a backscene, which makes the road over bridge easy to justify.  The off scene headshunt really helps operations with this kind of small space.  Whatever you go for I know it will be well worth following.  Keith.

[PatB]

I think the scenified fiddle yard has much going for it, especially in small spaces. If you've only got a few square feet it seems a bit wasteful to hide half of it. 

 

I don't see any reason why the fiddle area can't be used as an extension of the modelled scene, so you get the maximum pleasing visual presentation. Whilst operating, you can always ignore the fiddle bit, particularly if there's some obvious visual divider, such as an overbridge. After all, even with a conventional arrangement, you know the train is just sitting amidst a wasteland of unpainted plywood and unballasted track. I don't see it as that much of a mental leap to just ignore it while you concentrate on the other end of the scene. 

[sb67]

I've been doing a bit of full size planning and realise how narrow the baseboard is. The backscene might not be much more than a high retaining wall. I could always reverse the viewpoint I guess and have a deeper backscene. The buildings at the far end are an idea, I was thinking of using the grey one. 

If I go with this plan I was thinking about a sector plate but I wasn't initially going to use a run round loop and I might just have a small kick back siding to stable a loco. 

 

[sb67]

I had another idea using this plan. I've had stashed away a Peco goods depot and thought about using it on the siding at the front of the layout. The other sidings being used for incoming trains and stabling locos's/stock? 

 

 

 

 

[sb67]

Been trying another idea. I can get a run round loop in but then I've only got one long siding to use. I also though that I could add a bit if interest by making the loop headshunt shorter say only able to accommodate  an 0-6-0 If I used something larger I'd need two locos. 

I'm not sure what to go with, how can I make something so simple so complicated! 

 

Edited September 30, 2020 by sb67

[sb67]

Another idea without using the 3 way point.

 

[Flying Pig]

2 hours ago, sb67 said:

Another idea without using the 3 way point.

 

 

I like the look of this, but it does need room for a proper headshunt this side of the nearest points - I don't see how it can be worked otherwise.

[sb67]

2 hours ago, Flying Pig said:

 

I like the look of this, but it does need room for a proper headshunt this side of the nearest points - I don't see how it can be worked otherwise.

 

Ahh yea, sorry I should have include the track. That will be the entrance from the fiddle yard, looking at it I could see a problem with buffer locking as I've got some stock with three links fitted. 

Edited September 30, 2020 by sb67

[sb67]

Now I've always liked the way people can make stories to justify a layout but never been able to do it myself. I have been trawling my books and magazines for some inspiration for my new layout and come across the Silvertown Tramway. I used to be a Drayman and in the mid 90's our depot was at Silvertown, although I think the freight had ceased to exist there I remember bit's of overgrown track around and you had the passenger service to North Woolwich. The bit that interests me is the spur that ran from Silvertown station. 

I was using that for some ideas or a story and came up with modelling a truncated bit of line that once went further or into a private yard that is now a couple of sidings that are now used for storing wagons or stabling loco's from nearby industries and yards. Also a siding that is being used by engineers or other goods.

I just need to finalise the plan.  There would be a fiddle yard at the left end and at the other end of the layout would be a gated level crossing or works entrance, overgrown and little used.  I need to decide to go with or without a run round loop. Without would mean a shunter has to be around to release locos then shuffle the wagons around. If I have a run round loop the headshunt for the loco wont be too long so if anything larger than a  class 20/25 visited I would need shunter there.

The backscene would be retaining walls with maybe a couple of factory backs, nothing too suggesting of an era or location in order to run a variety of stock. If there's enough room maybe an office or shed at the front somewhere.

I've roughly drawn some ideas based on my original track plans.

 

 

 

Edited October 7, 2020 by sb67

[37114]

15 minutes ago, sb67 said:

Now I've always liked the way people can make stories to justify a layout but never been able to do it myself. I have been trawling my books and magazines for some inspiration for my new layout and come across the Silvertown Tramway. I used to be a Drayman and in the mid 90's our depot was at Silvertown, although I think the freight had ceased to exist there I remember bit's of overgrown track around and you had the passenger service to North Woolwich. The bit that interests me is the spur that ran from Silvertown station. 

I was using that for some ideas or a story and came up with modelling a truncated bit of line that once went further or into a private yard that is now a couple of sidings that are now used for storing wagons or stabling loco's from nearby industries and yards. Also a siding that is being used by engineers or other goods.

I just need to finalise the plan.  There would be a fiddle yard at the left end and at the other end of the layout would be a gated level crossing or works entrance, overgrown and little used.  I need to decide to go with or without a run round loop. Without would mean a shunter has to be around to release locos then shuffle the wagons around. If I have a run round loop the headshunt for the loco wont be too long so if anything larger than a  class 20/25 visited I would need shunter there.

The backscene would be retaining walls with maybe a couple of factory backs, nothing too suggesting of an era or location in order to run a variety of stock. If there's enough room maybe an office or shed at the front somewhere.

I've roughly drawn some ideas based on my original track plans.

 

 

 

Having built layouts to both of your plans personally would go with the top plan and use cassettes in your fiddle yard to complete the run round loop. I have used a similar for my last 4mm layout and my current 7mm one and the top plan is much more rewarding and interesting.

[sb67]

5 hours ago, 37114 said:

Having built layouts to both of your plans personally would go with the top plan and use cassettes in your fiddle yard to complete the run round loop. I have used a similar for my last 4mm layout and my current 7mm one and the top plan is much more rewarding and interesting.

 

Thank you, that's a good bit of info. If I went with the top plan what would be the best road to bring a train in on? 

[37114]

9 hours ago, sb67 said:

 

Thank you, that's a good bit of info. If I went with the top plan what would be the best road to bring a train in on? 

It depends on how you plan to operate the layout, but assuming you plan to operate it with the train arriving on the layout is replacing the same train already on the layout (e.g. a rake of vans arriving full for the factory at the back) then you want to bring the incoming train in on the bottom side of the loop. To work an example:

- There is a rake of vans in the factory siding at the top of the layout waiting to go to the fiddle yard.

- The incoming train arrives on the lower line and stops just short of the points

- The loco uncouples and backs onto the outgoing rake and couples up to that one. 

- The loco pulls the rake forward clear of the cross over and then uncouples.

- Off scene the loco then "runs round" and backs onto the incoming rake. It then pushes it back into the factory siding

- The loco pulls forward, runs round offscene and pulls the outgoing rake away

 

If you apply the above sequence to the engineers yard you will need to bring the incoming train in on the lower line of the loop, run round and push the incoming wagons back onto the truncated line. The outgoing wagons are then pulled forward into the loop, then pushed back onto the incoming wagons which are pulled forward of the truncated line, past the point then pushed back into the engineers sidings.

 

If you look at my Peafore Yard thread there are a few pictures that show the above sequence a little more easily. It was also 4ft long so gives you a view of what can be shunted in the space. The original part of my first layout "Pallet lane" was 9inches by 5ft and broadly matches your lower plan so you can get an idea of the space and train lengths. Both were great layouts to operate if you like shunting