Docklands Sidings - Restoring photo's!

[sb67]

7 hours ago, Flying Pig said:

Looking very good.

 

Thanks Simon, your earlier ideas have got me thinking about the signalling now, that would add a bit of scenic interest. If not a signal box I wondered about a Ground Frame. I'll have to look at some photo's and see what was  on the real branch.

[sb67]

I've a question about signals and where would they be, if any , on the layout.

I'm assuming the line has been run down and probably due for closing at some time but once it did see a bit of traffic with both lines at the A end running to somewhere. 

The lines have now been truncated with A being a single siding that sees very little traffic going past as set of level crossing gates.

 

I was thinking of a signal box/ground frame either at B or C. I quite like the idea of a derelict signal box and as the line is now really used as a set of sidings would I need any signals at all or where would I put an old signal post? 

D is the main running line on to the layout. 

 

Hope that makes sense.

[Zomboid]

I doubt it would have any active signalling. In terms of derelict equipment you'd need to put design how is was before the truncation, and signal that. Then whatever is on scene from that can be modelled derelict.

[sb67]

I guess before the truncation there would have been 2 through lines with the siding at the bottom right. There would have been other lines around that could have warranted a signal box at one time. Looking at the p!an any signals might have been out of sight. 

Would there usually be a signal leading up to a level crossing? 

[Flying Pig]

As regards original signalling, it would be something like the following (dashed lines indicate the extent of the layout).  The box would need to be next to the level crossing it controlled, I think, so rear right corner of the layout.  As I suggested previously, the down home signal post could remain, but I think the rest would have been removed.

 

Since you are now imagining the old up line continuing across the level crossing (which I like), would the gates still be operated from the box, or would they have been reduced to hand operation by the train crew?  If the box were still in use, might it still control the points, or would they have been converted to hand lever operation?

 

 

 

[Zomboid]

Not that it matters what I think, but for me the most plausible scenario if the line beyond is rarely used is the gates are hand operated and the box is downgraded to a ground frame (unlocked by the train staff), at least until such time as it falls down.

[sb67]

Thanks' for that signalling plan Simon.  I guess the gates would be operated by the train crew, I'm sure I've seen pics of that on the Silvertown tramway.  I'm going to have to assume the signal box was the other side of the crossing as there's no room to put it at that end of the layout, unless I could get away with moving it to the left a bit. Were signal boxes always near the crossings they operated? 

I wonder if a ground frame would be more plausible  and I could model the remains of the ground signals as well. 

I was going to exit the layout using the time honoured bridge, so would the down signal would have been sighted the other side of it and thus off the layout? 

 

 

 

[Izzy]

I think that with any manned level crossing, even with just a crossing keepers gatehouse, protecting signals in both directions would be 440yds distant for it, and controlled by the keeper. The exception could be like Frinton where a platform is next to the crossing, and where the PS is located facing the crossing. So unless a platform exists/existed any signals would probably be out of sight in either direction.

 

Like the track plan, nice and simple with plenty of options. Be aware that using a sector plate fiddle as the run-round needs enough space before it for it to work. I found this out the hard way when making a micro 7mm plank recently. It took a while for the penny to drop, me being slow on the uptake. 
 

Izzy

[Zomboid]

Once the signalbox fell down/ was burnt down/ whatever terrible fate it suffered, a regular open air ground frame would probably have been provided; probably on the viewing side so as to be near both the crossover and the siding.

 

I doubt it would operate any ground signals as it looks like a one engine in steam type location, but there might be the wreckage of some from happier times.

[sb67]

2 hours ago, Izzy said:

 

 

 

Like the track plan, nice and simple with plenty of options. Be aware that using a sector plate fiddle as the run-round needs enough space before it for it to work. I found this out the hard way when making a micro 7mm plank recently. It took a while for the penny to drop, me being slow on the uptake. 
 

Izzy

 

Thanks Izzy, I only plan on running round with locos so hopefully my sector plate will be ok. The main running line is the lower one, D on the plan. 

 

Thanks for your input guys, it's got me thinking! 

I have a Ratio small signal box kit that might just squeeze between the track and the backscene next to the crossing. I'll have to have a look. 

[The Stationmaster]

Taking the real world as an example to follow - although there were some variations between the way different Regions did the job - you could reasnably assume that a former signal box had been retained as a cabin for the  use of shunting staff when they are present at the location.  Possibly the windows would be boarded over particularly if the area is prone to vandalism.  On one of my former patches we had one former signal box that had the windows boarded over while another didn't have them boarded over.  at another place where I worked the former 'box had the windows boarded over.    All the points would be worked by hand levers and there would be little or no trace of any former signalling - possibly the occasional telegraph pole but anything which had a scrap value would be long gone.

 

If there is a level crossing (it started as a bridge I thought) then the gates would probably be chained and padlocked across the railway being opened for a train by the traincrew - the padlocking being done to stop the local yobbos swinging the gates for their enjoyment of a quiet evening.

[Zomboid]

1 minute ago, The Stationmaster said:

  All the points would be worked by hand levers and there would be little or no trace of any former signalling - possibly the occasional telegraph pole but anything which had a scrap value would be long gone.

How quickly would that happen? Would there be any period at all where the decommissioned equipment was still in situ whilst trains ran on the remaining lines?

 

It only needs to be a couple of days to justify (in model terms) having any signal poles standing, even if the arms have gone/ the lights have been bagged over.

[Izzy]

On 19/11/2020 at 10:47, sb67 said:

 

Thanks Izzy, I only plan on running round with locos so hopefully my sector plate will be ok. The main running line is the lower one, D on the plan. 

Ah, I thought- in conjunction with the signalling ideas of a former double track existence - that the upper was the main line and the lower the shunting neck with the shunter on it. Yes, a loco sized plate at the end is no problem, I wanted a full length train size one and failed to appreciate what this meant in design terms.

 

Izzy

[The Stationmaster]

On 19/11/2020 at 10:52, Zomboid said:

How quickly would that happen? Would there be any period at all where the decommissioned equipment was still in situ whilst trains ran on the remaining lines?

 

It only needs to be a couple of days to justify (in model terms) having any signal poles standing, even if the arms have gone/ the lights have been bagged over.

It might vary a bit from Region to Region plus the time when it took place but by the late 1960s BR needed the money so it tended to happen fairly quickly.  Early 1960s not so quickly.   Off hand I can't think of anywhere I knew or where I worked in the early 1970s where there was nothing except very occasional items buried in the long grass at the lineside.   So that meant anywhere where rationalisation and removals had occurred from the mid 1960s onwards and in a number of places it meant locations which had been rationalised as early as 1961/62 on the WR.

 

By the late '70s the drive to get money in was even more pronounced and stuff vanished almost instantly with the occasional exception of signal box structures which were put to other uses after having their interiors stripped although occasionally you could find semi-derelict signal boxes from which everything had been removed.   In the mid '80s I was involved in recovering signalling equipment on behalf of preservation concern and we were given three weeks (= 3 weekends in our case) to remove what we wanted otherwise it would be taken away for scrap and the site cleared and bulldozed.  We were given an extra week's grace when it came to the signal box we had bought but fortunately a friendly contractor did most of that for us by working through the week and transporting it all to our site.  But within a month you wouldn't even have known where the signal boxes had been let alone the signals and point rodding etc.   On another job I know about a 90+ lever frame signal box had completely gone within 5 days.

[sb67]

Started to do some ballasting. I wanted the siding to be near buried in ballast, gunge etc so I tried a method used by Barry Norman in a DVD on scenery. I built up the ground either side with card then spread plaster in the space where the track would sit. The track was then pressed into that followed by a liberal amount of bonfire ash pressing it all down as I went. 

This was the result.

 

Next the whole area was painted a brown/grey colour then more ash and some chinchilla dust applied over that then left to dry. 

 

 

After that was cleaned up this is the result. I feel it needs a bit more work, some joins in the card need covering , so I'll give it another going over. 

 

 

I've got to start thinking about the colour of ballast for the rest of the layout to use as well.

 

 

 

 

[sb67]

Been doing a bit of work, started on the bridge and tried some ballast. I was looking for a well used look to the ballast so I've tried a mix of Woodland scenics browns. I'd like peoples thoughts as it clashes with the yard colour but I know you see that in real life sometimes. I was hoping to bring it together with some washes once the ballast is fixed. 

 

 

[sb67]

I've finished the bridge. I'd like to paint it in engineers  blue brick, but not sure what colours to use, especially for the mortar. 

Would I paint the blue first then add the mortar or the other way round? 

Any advice gratefully received. 

 

 

 

 

[Pete the Elaner]

I used 2 methods on my layout & the photo shows sections using each method.

The centre section was painted with Humbrol 104, which is supposed to be engineers' blue brick. I have used this before & been happy with the finish but this particular tin looks way too blue to me. Maybe I'll try some Phoenix paints instead?

I then painted thinned out grey for the mortar then leaving it to dry a little before wiping some off.

The arches either side were done very differently. I sprayed these with grey primer before dry brushing a mixture of black, grey & a little brown.

I think the 2 finishes are a little either side of ideal. The brick first method looks too uniform (& with this tin, too blue) & the dry brushing method too streaky.

 

 

 

 

[Miserable]

On 04/09/2020 at 11:08, sb67 said:

 

That is a really interesting idea, I've always had a fiddle yard and like seeing trains arrive "on stage" but I guess if it stays at home there might not be a need.

That's the route I took, it allowed me, much to the bank managers horror, to get a lot more in. I guess it's more working diorama then conventional layout.

[37114]

25 minutes ago, Pete the Elaner said:

I used 2 methods on my layout & the photo shows sections using each method.

The centre section was painted with Humbrol 104, which is supposed to be engineers' blue brick. I have used this before & been happy with the finish but this particular tin looks way too blue to me. Maybe I'll try some Phoenix paints instead?

I then painted thinned out grey for the mortar then leaving it to dry a little before wiping some off.

The arches either side were done very differently. I sprayed these with grey primer before dry brushing a mixture of black, grey & a little brown.

I think the 2 finishes are a little either side of ideal. The brick first method looks too uniform (& with this tin, too blue) & the dry brushing method too streaky.

 

 

 

 

I would be tempted to do a hybrid of the 2 methods:

- paint the brick 104, you may want to mix in some grey if you think it is too blue.

- Highlight a few bricks different colours,  I would try a few greys and blacks and would almost dry brush them

- Apply a 50/50 paint thinners mix of your chosen grey mix then wipe off while wet.

- weather the bricks by dry brushing some browns and blacks at the bottom,  maybe some white powders near a join to represent limescale deposits 

[sb67]

Having tried some experiments trying to get blue bricks right, to no avail really I might resort back to the usual brickwork.

However, I've seen plenty of pictures of my chosen area to model where he bricks are more shades of brown than the brick red I normally use. 

I'm having trouble selecting colours to try and replicate this as I cant get the usual Humbrol Matt 70 out of my mind! 

Does anyone know what colours I should mix with it or use a different colour completely? 

 

http://www.abandonedstations.org.uk/NorthWoolwichLine/6_ConnaughtTunnel03.jpg

 

This would be the nearest to what I'm trying to achieve.

 

Mnay thanks.

Edited December 28, 2020 by sb67

[sb67]

Having stuck the bridge in place I'm now looking at ballasting and if I should model a ground frame and point rodding or just my usual (easy) option of making the points hand lever operated. I'd like to suggest there was some point rodding there at some time but not sure how to do that as the wills kit looks like complete rodding to me.

Also is there any particular place a ground frame should be or would it just be placed wherever convenient? 

[Flying Pig]

4 hours ago, sb67 said:

Having stuck the bridge in place I'm now looking at ballasting and if I should model a ground frame and point rodding or just my usual (easy) option of making the points hand lever operated.

 

I think @The Stationmaster suggested the latter not many posts back when signalling was discussed.  It's becoming an act of rebellion not to include point rodding these days.

[sb67]

If I were to put operating hand levers what would I need to suggest that point rodding used to be there? The Wills kit looks to be complete rodding, I was thinking of just having the bits that the rodding sits on?

[SZ]

15 hours ago, sb67 said:

If I were to put operating hand levers what would I need to suggest that point rodding used to be there? The Wills kit looks to be complete rodding, I was thinking of just having the bits that the rodding sits on?

 

You are looking for point rodding stools, various suppliers such as Brassmasters, Wizard