Docklands Sidings - Restoring photo's!

[sb67]

Thanks Rob, I've been a fan of your layouts and really liked Peafore yard. I'll have a re read of your thread and watch the videos. 

I just have to make sure there is enough room to run round wagons if I'm using cassettes or a sector plate. 

With the top plan I guess I have the option of having a second loco releasing the loco from the incoming train and shunting wagons. Just for a bit of variation. 

Edited October 8, 2020 by sb67

[Flying Pig]

I thought you might be interested to look at the coal concentration depot that was the remains of Norwich Victoria station.  It has the sort of compact layout you're designing though of course it just handled coal. 

 

http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/n/norwich_victoria/index.shtml

 

https://www.railscot.co.uk/img/26/87/

 

https://alchetron.com/Norwich-Victoria-railway-station

[sb67]

5 hours ago, Flying Pig said:

I thought you might be interested to look at the coal concentration depot that was the remains of Norwich Victoria station.  It has the sort of compact layout you're designing though of course it just handled coal. 

 

http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/n/norwich_victoria/index.shtml

 

https://www.railscot.co.uk/img/26/87/

 

https://alchetron.com/Norwich-Victoria-railway-station

 

 

Thank you. I did a quick search and found some more pics. That is a fantastically modellable site, with bridges at both ends and a narrow profile. As you say it just handled coal so personally I would like to try and add something else if possible.

 

Thanks for those links.

Edited October 9, 2020 by sb67

[sb67]

I'd kind of settled on this plan, the only hiccup being the fiddle yard and how to run round trains...........

 

 

But then I messed around and found a Single slip that I had for ages and came up with this.........

 

 

Now the loop will hold the longest train and I've an extra small siding to stable/park stuff. The middle road would end at a level crossing gate to suggest something else beyond the edge of the board.  

I just wondered what people thought? 

[Zomboid]

The better option depends what you'll use it for. The top one is better for a scenic exhibition type affair, where the need to shunt with a loco lift or other cassette type thing would be ok. The second one has a very short loop, but offers much more in the way of locomotive operation without any off scene hand-of-God action.

 

Personally I would prioritise shunting with a locomotive, and the result is more of a shunting puzzle.

 

It might be a bit of a provocative way to put it, but your top design gives you a model to be looked at, and the bottom one gives you a model to be played with. There's nothing wrong with either approach, it's just about what you want from your model railway.

[37114]

1 hour ago, sb67 said:

I'd kind of settled on this plan, the only hiccup being the fiddle yard and how to run round trains...........

 

 

But then I messed around and found a Single slip that I had for ages and came up with this.........

 

 

Now the loop will hold the longest train and I've an extra small siding to stable/park stuff. The middle road would end at a level crossing gate to suggest something else beyond the edge of the board.  

I just wondered what people thought? 

Just a quick one Steve, what couplings are you using? If tension locks either plan will be fine but if 3 links, spratt and winkle etc then you could have a problem with buffer locking on the bottom plan dependant on what wagons /locos you are using as you have a lot of reverse curves. I worked round it on Pallet Lane (near identical plan to your bottom one) in terms of how I operated the layout  and fitted bars between the buffers but the track plan of Peafore Yard was designed to remove reverse curves so I could bin the bars. 

 

I don't disagree with Zomboids point and agree it is about what you want from the layout however I did find both equally fun to operate albeit with different challenges.

[sb67]

6 hours ago, 37114 said:

Just a quick one Steve, what couplings are you using? If tension locks either plan will be fine but if 3 links, spratt and winkle etc then you could have a problem with buffer locking on the bottom plan dependant on what wagons /locos you are using as you have a lot of reverse curves. I worked round it on Pallet Lane (near identical plan to your bottom one) in terms of how I operated the layout  and fitted bars between the buffers but the track plan of Peafore Yard was designed to remove reverse curves so I could bin the bars. 

 

I don't disagree with Zomboids point and agree it is about what you want from the layout however I did find both equally fun to operate albeit with different challenges.

 

That's a good point, I hadn't thought about. I was planning on having a dabble with 3 links so I might have to do a few tests. They are medium radius points so hoped they might be ok. 

 

That is a difficult choice about what I'd like from the layout. I guess from my idea and story I'd like to build something that could be plausible so maybe the first plan is the way to go. 

[37114]

1 hour ago, sb67 said:

 

That's a good point, I hadn't thought about. I was planning on having a dabble with 3 links so I might have to do a few tests. They are medium radius points so hoped they might be ok. 

 

That is a difficult choice about what I'd like from the layout. I guess from my idea and story I'd like to build something that could be plausible so maybe the first plan is the way to go. 

I had hoped the 3 links would be ok on Parsons Vale and they are fine on the Peco bullhead points but I have issues with the double slip which a standard Peco code 75 one with buffer locking on parcel stock.

[sb67]

15 minutes ago, 37114 said:

I had hoped the 3 links would be ok on Parsons Vale and they are fine on the Peco bullhead points but I have issues with the double slip which a standard Peco code 75 one with buffer locking on parcel stock.

 

I did a quick test this eve and there wasn't much that would go through the reverse curve at the start of the loop, which uses a single slip but things seemed to go through just a plain medium radius point, I havent tried any bogied stock yet, although I wouldn't be running that much.

I looked at Peafore yard and noticed the way the points were placed. 

i would like to use 3 links so it's back to the drawing board I guess! 

Thanks for mentioning that Rob, there's a good chance I would have found out when it was too late! 

Edited October 14, 2020 by sb67

[Flying Pig]

 

11 hours ago, sb67 said:

I'd kind of settled on this plan, the only hiccup being the fiddle yard and how to run round trains...........

 

 

But then I messed around and found a Single slip that I had for ages and came up with this.........

 

 

Now the loop will hold the longest train and I've an extra small siding to stable/park stuff. The middle road would end at a level crossing gate to suggest something else beyond the edge of the board.  

I just wondered what people thought? 

 

Assuming your inventory is two left points, one right and a single slip, the following rearrangement of the second plan may work.  It avoids reverse curves but still uses the slip so the tight radius of that could still be a problem for three link couplings.  Also, it will need to sit diagonally on the board so may be wider than you can fit.

 

 

[sb67]

6 hours ago, Flying Pig said:

 

 

Assuming your inventory is two left points, one right and a single slip, the following rearrangement of the second plan may work.  It avoids reverse curves but still uses the slip so the tight radius of that could still be a problem for three link couplings.  Also, it will need to sit diagonally on the board so may be wider than you can fit.

 

 

 

Thanks Simon, as you say the curve of the plan may be difficult to fit in, I will give it a try later. I've also worked out that I could have a crossover at the right hand end as it will only ever be loco's that use it. 

[sb67]

After a bit of testing I've found a lot of stock will go through med radius points using an 0-6-0 shunter without buffer locking, when it comes to bogie stock it was a bit erratic! 

I've decide to go with this plan, I just need to decide which configuration of points to go for. 

I'd like it to look as though it used to be a double track line at some time in the past and it has been truncated, might seem a silly question but are they both much of a much or does one look any more railway like? 

 

 

 

 

[Keith Addenbrooke]

14 minutes ago, sb67 said:

After a bit of testing I've found a lot of stock will go through med radius points using an 0-6-0 shunter without buffer locking, when it comes to bogie stock it was a bit erratic! 

I've decide to go with this plan, I just need to decide which configuration of points to go for. 

I'd like it to look as though it used to be a double track line at some time in the past and it has been truncated, might seem a silly question but are they both much of a much or does one look any more railway like? 

 

 

 

 

Hi Steve, I suppose one quick answer would be that the first version has a facing crossover, so could be deemed less Railway-like on those grounds.

 

That said, I like the look of it a bit more - I think because the crossover in the lower plan ends up nearer the bridge, so more of the action is ‘off-stage.’

[Flying Pig]

The second version looks a lot more workable to me, with all three sidings accessible from the left hand line.  The first looks unnecessarily awkward and less credible for that.  

[sb67]

I've wired the mock layout up and been running stuff around. I like the plan but not really sure how it's going to work scenery wise as there's not a lot of room. I dont want to be too specific as I'd like to run a few different eras if possible.

 

 

 

[sb67]

Just to confuse myself even more! After having a few days running stuff and enjoying the plan I've (roughly!) mocked up something different, a complete run round loop with a couple of sidings. I'm going to have a play with this and see what I think. 

Initially I don't think I can run the same length of train, it can be run round but it's a bit tight in the fiddle yard,  and I think the first plan suits the stock I want to run better.

 

[sb67]

Having run stuff for a few days I've concluded that whilst I like the whole run round loop visible, unless you have a kickback siding,  after you've run round the train the shunting is much the same as in my first plan. I actually like the option of parking a shunter in the siding under the bridge and using that to release a loco from an incoming train as in the first plan. So I'm erring towards that one at the moment,

I'm not sure if my original idea of a truncated line is going to work though, I'd like to keep the idea of something based on the Silvertown Tramway but not sure what at the moment, looking for ideas! 

 

[Flying Pig]

5 hours ago, sb67 said:

I'm not sure if my original idea of a truncated line is going to work though

 

Why is that? I can imagine either of your two earlier mockups as a truncated route and it shouldn't be too difficult to place them as a twig off the Silvertown Tramway.

 

[sb67]

5 hours ago, Flying Pig said:

 

Why is that? I can imagine either of your two earlier mockups as a truncated route and it shouldn't be too difficult to place them as a twig off the Silvertown Tramway.

 

 

Thank you. 

I couldn't visualise the way I wanted it to look and started looking at other layouts for inspiration and that lead to completely different ideas. I will stick with it though as I would like to build a layout with a bit of a story and reason behind it. 

Edited November 3, 2020 by sb67

[Flying Pig]

Just because it's going round my head, here is one way your layout could be justified as a truncated route. It was formerly a double track line with a trailing crossover and a single siding.  Now it is a single track with a section of the old up line retained as a headshunt and additional siding. 

 

I don't know how you operated the mockup, but I've drawn the layout without a runround for simplicity and to save length. If there is a shunter, that can release the train engine which can then wait in view beyond the crossover.  Otherwise, the train engine will propel the train down the branch and do the shunting itself.

 

I've drawn possible locations for a derelict signal box and signal post shorn of its fittings in case you want to include them for effect.  I don't think signals would remain in use - you might need a stop board in place of the home, but I'll let the signalling gurus worry about that.

 

 

 

 

Edited November 4, 2020 by Flying Pig

[sb67]

Thank you Simon, I like the derelict signal box idea and the signal post although I don't know where it would be sited.  

This is my original idea, I drew the line as I thought it might look and the hatched bit is what I aimed to model, 

 

 

My thinking was to have the option of using a part run round loop or using 2 loco's as if 1 side of the loop had been lifted.

I was initially intrigued by the Sivertown Tramway which did truncate a line opposite ,I think, Silvertown station. That was then used as a headshunt and trains were propelled to a scrap yard. At least I think that's correct. 

 

 

[Flying Pig]

I worked on not having a runround partly because I had a double track route in mind for some reason and partly for ease of operation.  I don't think you have room for the pointwork offstage, but of course a Peco loco lift would probably do the trick admirably.   As you've already laid it out once you'll know how it works. It certainly looks worth building properly.

 

The signalling stuff is just decoration and not at all necessary, though I think with both a level crossing and siding there would quite likely have been a box on the site before rationalisation.  I quite like the idea of a wooden signal post deemed not worth recovering and left to rot away though, even if you don't have room for a box.

 

Your description of Silvertown matches what's in the 1988 Quail, which shows the route splitting into separate passenger and goods lines at Custom House and running like that through Silvertown Tunnel to Silvertown, where the yard kicked back (seemingly the remains of the former Silvertown Tramway) and the goods line terminated in a headshunt.  There was no connection between the lines at Silvertown, but a runround is shown in the yard.  From the Disused Stations entry, this appears to be a late 1970s rationalisation as earlier pictures show the station with two platforms.

 

 

[sb67]

There's some great pictures on that website. 

I haven't got enough room for the off stage pointwork, I was thinking of a sector plate just long enough for a loco to run round. 

Started laying some track today so hopefully it'll start to come together.

[sb67]

The track is all laid and partially wired, I built a sector plate for the fiddle yard too.

 

 

Edited November 7, 2020 by sb67

[Flying Pig]

Looking very good.