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Big Four and Pre-Grouping locos that were never repainted


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2 hours ago, Florence Locomotive Works said:

Post your photos of locomotives from the Big Four and Pre-Grouping days who never got repainted into BR liveries.  

 

I don't think many people will have their own photographs!

 

It was over seventy years ago...

 

 

 

Jason

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6 hours ago, Poor Old Bruce said:

 

2020 minus 1962 comes out at 58 in my calculation :rtfm:, I still have photos which I took then.

 

In original pre grouping and Big Four livery though?

 

I meant nationalisation was seventy odd years ago.

 

The only things I can think of that lasted until withdrawal post 1960ish still in pre 1948 livery were the handful of panniers and South Wales tanks which are pretty well documented. Everything else was painted reasonably quickly or went for scrap.

 

And that tender which was behind 7816. But surely that doesn't count as the loco itself was in BR livery.

 

The photo of a LNWR Super D in LMS livery on a railtour is a fake done with chalk or paint as the locomotive was previously photographed in BR livery.

 

 

Jason

Edited by Steamport Southport
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As a special request within this, does anyone know of a photo of an LNWR ‘George the Fifth’ in BR ownership.

 

I think three survived into the BR period, and my working assumption is that they never received BR livery, so were probably plain black with LMS script.

 

 

Edited by Nearholmer
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Dirty LMS black. 

 

Photos of 25350 (58011) and 25297 (58010) Sirocco here.

 

https://chasewaterstuff.wordpress.com/2013/03/29/steam-locomotives-of-a-more-leisurely-era-1904-precursors-and-george-vs-london-north-western-railway/

 

Another presumably post war photo here at Blaenau Ffestiniog.

 

https://chasewaterstuff.wordpress.com/2012/09/07/some-early-lines-conwy-valley-line-llandudno-junction-blaenau-festiniog-line/

 

 

Jason

Edited by Steamport Southport
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It may be the case that the Corris Railway locomotives went through the entire period of GWR ownership without being repainted, and also into the first few months of the BR era before the line was closed. I base this on Rolt's recollection in Railway Adventure that they were still painted red when the Talyllyn acquired them.

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19 hours ago, Garethp8873 said:

Not mine but a favourite. GWR 66XX 6677 in 1962 still in the GWR Grotesque livery applied to locos at Caerphilly Works.

 

https://www.rail-online.co.uk/p330735406/h48A4673D#h48a4673d

Nice.  Apparently the loco was a Stourbridge Jc allox in 1948 and is not noted on BR Database as being xfer anywhere else, so we do not really know if she had been re-allox PRD or was a visitor from Stourbridge.  Photo dated 22/7/62 and she doesn't look as if the grotesque initials have been revealed under another livery by enthusiastic cleaning.  Difficult to state green or black, and Caerphilly started applying the standard GW Egyptian Serif style some time in 1945, so she has not had a repaint for 16 years at least, and as she was officially WDN 14/1/63 in the middle of a very cold winter and was probably out of use for some time before this I'd say it was very unlikely she was ever painted in any other livery after this Caerphilly austerity repaint, which could have been as early as 1942, 21 years before WDN.  Not bad going!

 

I'd love to find evidence of her pre-1958 at Tondu, but no chance.  6676 and 6679 both spent time there, oh well, 'ow sad, never mind.

 

I have a loco that fits the category of never having carried any BR livery or accoutrements such as smokebox number, red backed number plates, or shedcode plates on my layout; 2761, a Hornby half-cab pannier which was WDN Tondu 31/3/1950, photographed on Swindon Works reception roads June 1950 showing Grotesque under the muck.  AFAIK nobody makes transfers for the Grotesque livery.

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2 hours ago, Andy Kirkham said:

It may be the case that the Corris Railway locomotives went through the entire period of GWR ownership without being repainted, and also into the first few months of the BR era before the line was closed. I base this on Rolt's recollection in Railway Adventure that they were still painted red when the Talyllyn acquired them.

 

Can't tell with the locomotives on many of the photographs. They could be almost any colour within reason.

 

I wonder whether any of the pioneer colour photographers or film makers managed to record them.

 

https://chasewaterstuff.wordpress.com/2010/06/25/chasewater-railway-museum-some-early-lines-1/#jp-carousel-3174

 

 

But they definitely painted their wagons. Always liked the wagon photo here.

 

https://chasewaterstuff.wordpress.com/2010/06/25/chasewater-railway-museum-some-early-lines-1/#jp-carousel-3173

 

 

 

Jason

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5 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

The only things I can think of that lasted until withdrawal post 1960ish still in pre 1948 livery were the handful of panniers and South Wales tanks which are pretty well documented. Everything else was painted reasonably quickly or went for scrap.

There's a picture on the web of a 97xx condensing pannier still with shirtbutton emblem showing in 1960.

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5 minutes ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

There's a picture on the web of a 97xx condensing pannier still with shirtbutton emblem showing in 1960.

 

I'd be interested if there was one with the shirtbutton.

 

There was definitely two, both GWR though. 9703 and 9707. Genuine ones rather than locomotives which paint had peeled.

 

Mentioned on the GWR Modelling website. (Which I forgot to link to earlier in the thread).

 

http://www.gwr.org.uk/liveriesloco1942.html

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/14347146613

 

https://www.rail-online.co.uk/p416923824/e9567f1ce

 

 

There was a bit of debate previously about 9709 as I'm sure somebody had posted a photo of it in BR livery. So may be one where the paint had been peeled off. 

 

https://www.rail-online.co.uk/p416923824/h7920818A#h1316d873

 

 

 

Jason

 

 

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7 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

As a special request within this, does anyone know of a photo of an LNWR ‘George the Fifth’ in BR ownership.

 

I think three survived into the BR period, and my working assumption is that they never received BR livery, so were probably plain black with LMS script.

 

 

 

Which prompts the thought, did any ex-LNWR engine regain LNWR livery - i.e. BR mixed traffic livery - after a quarter-century interval? (Not counting Hardwicke!) The 5'6" tanks seem the most likely possibility but the only photos I can find show plain black. Ex-L&Y and ex-Midland passenger tank engines of similar vintage were lined.

Edited by Compound2632
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5 hours ago, The Johnster said:

AFAIK nobody makes transfers for the Grotesque livery.

 

I have a friend who does some custom Grotesque lettering. You can see the results on the Hornby 42xx thread below. If you want to know who did me the transfers, please PM me and I will forward him onto you.

 

 

3 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

I'd be interested if there was one with the shirtbutton.

 

There was definitely two, both GWR though. 9703 and 9707. Genuine ones rather than locomotives which paint had peeled.

 

Mentioned on the GWR Modelling website. (Which I forgot to link to earlier in the thread).

 

http://www.gwr.org.uk/liveriesloco1942.html

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/14347146613

 

https://www.rail-online.co.uk/p416923824/e9567f1ce

 

 

There was a bit of debate previously about 9709 as I'm sure somebody had posted a photo of it in BR livery. So may be one where the paint had been peeled off. 

 

https://www.rail-online.co.uk/p416923824/h7920818A#h1316d873

 

 

 

Jason

 

 

 

GWR 57xx Pannier 8700 is another Pannier I'd most likely suspect ended it's carrier in it's GWR Shirtbutton livery. The first photo link shows it in 1958. Unfortunately the second link photo doesn't include a date though.

 

https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrt2414.htm

https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrt2363.htm

 

 

Edited by Garethp8873
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5 minutes ago, Garethp8873 said:

 

I have a friend who does some custom Grotesque lettering. You can see the results on the Hornby 42xx thread below. If you want to know who did me the transfers, please PM me and I will forward him onto you.

Thank you very much for this kind offer, Gareth; PM on the way!

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3 hours ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

I wonder if this is original or whether the paint has work off?

About 3/4 down this page

https://www.bundesbahnzeit.de/seite.php?id=619

 

 

Wow. What a find. Probably a repaint during the war and before they adopted the GWR livery.

 

Some other interesting photos on that site as well.

 

 

Jason

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12 hours ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

I wonder if this is original or whether the paint has work off?

About 3/4 down this page

https://www.bundesbahnzeit.de/seite.php?id=619

 

 

8 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

Wow. What a find. Probably a repaint during the war and before they adopted the GWR livery.

 

Some other interesting photos on that site as well.

 

 

Jason

Very interesting to se it from the perspective of overseas visitors rather than with someone's local prejudices. I had to save the whole page when I found it.

Regarding 9710 it entered traffic at the end of 1933 so would be due for shopping c1941, also it was noted at Swindon Works in May 1949 and a repaint wouldn't be a priority then. 

The next reference I found was Caerphilly Works in 1961 which is probably where it got the late crest.

Edited by TheSignalEngineer
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24 minutes ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

Very interesting to se it from the perspective of overseas visitors rather than with someone's loal prejudices. I had to save the whole page when I found it.

had I not known otherwise, I'd have guessed that these photos had been taken by R.C.Riley.

His comments are indeed interesting - "Scarcely believable" that the Southern Railway had built a passenger 4-4-0 after 1930, and he's shocked at what to him is the rudimentary cab of the SE&CR L Class.

And although he had been denied a permit to visit Old Oak Common because of reconstruction work, he was tipped off by a contact in the RCTS who worked there that it was possble to sneak in by a back entrance.

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1 hour ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

 

Very interesting to se it from the perspective of overseas visitors rather than with someone's local prejudices. I had to save the whole page when I found it.

Regarding 9710 it entered traffic at the end of 1933 so would be due for shopping c1941, also it was noted at Swindon Works in May 1949 and a repaint wouldn't be a priority then. 

The next reference I found was Caerphilly Works in 1961 which is probably where it got the late crest.

Actually, 9710 appears to have retained that livery until withdrawal. In addition 9703 and 9706 both carried the post war G W R style until withdrawal. Several other Panniers also carried GWR livery until withdrawal in the early sixties whilst 7816 Frilsham Manor was running with a G W R lettered tender in the early sixties despite having previously been running with one bearing the "mono-cycling lion" crest.

Mike

 

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