Drivers mate sitting against the windscreen ?

[rob D2]

Just curious really as we have a lot of railway staff on here .

 

You see a lot of photos where the no2 in the cab has plonked themselves basically on the “ dashboard “ against the window, like below .

 

You see a lot of ads for drivers talking about “ concentration for long periods “ etc , but I’m not sure how having someone in my eye line blotting out half the view would help .

 

And what happens if you have to make an emergency brake ? Do they end up injured or even through the windscreen ?

 

[DY444]

I doubt it is a distraction because drivers generally look ahead not side to side and anyway if it was he'd be asked to move.  Plus there are loads of dmus/emus with corridor connections and diesels with snouts (eg class 37) which probably have worse views to the right than that from the driver's seat. 

 

Under an emergency brake application he'd be pressed harder into the cab front/windscreen and won't go anywhere.  Happy to defer to those with professional footplate experience but in my limited experience of locomotive footplate rides the only type of brake application capable of throwing you off your feet was an unannounced over zealous application of the straight air brake when running light (although not on a class 40 obviously )

Edited September 5, 2020 by DY444

[F-UnitMad]

2 hours ago, rob D2 said:

You see a lot of photos where the no2 in the cab has plonked themselves basically on the “ dashboard “ against the window, like below .

It's quite obvious why - he's acting as a sun visor....

[PaulRhB]

2 hours ago, rob D2 said:

where the no2 in the cab has plonked themselves basically on the “ dashboard “

Could be the seat is broken, I’ve been on 37’s and 47’s in the past where I stood rather than take my chances on the seat! 
 

2 hours ago, rob D2 said:

what happens if you have to make an emergency brake ? Do they end up injured or even through the windscreen ?

Remember no seat belts in locos and the loco or train brakes won’t ever throw you forwards out of the seat only hitting something will, you might lean forward a bit or stumble if standing in full emergency but that’s about it, so no difference in result. 
 

Like DY444 says the view is still better than most units and it’s up to the driver to manage distraction if the others are there for a reason. The only disadvantage I can see is that sitting that way round you aren’t helping with an extra set of eyes for shutting up when caution signals come into view or something odd happens. So your not detracting from the drivers ability, just not adding extra eyes. 

Edited September 5, 2020 by PaulRhB

[ikcdab]

No matter how you dress it up, this looks extremely unprofessional and almost certainly a distraction for the driver. I am sure that nobody who was in the cab for official reasons would sit like this.

[PaulRhB]

21 minutes ago, ikcdab said:

I am sure that nobody who was in the cab for official reasons would sit like this.

Well I’ve seen it with a shunter sat there chatting to the second man and he was definitely there for official reasons! There are perfectly valid reasons to have several people in a cab, I’ve been in with a driver, route conductor, traction inspector and me as Pilotman or groundframe operator several times. It’s just a place to sit. It can be pretty tight behind the seats in a loco cab so you are more likely to bump into the driver and annoy him squeezed in there. I’ve not been in a 60 so not sure how roomy each cab is but a 59 has one large and one small cab so that’s probably an easier place to sit in the smaller one if there’s 3-4 people. It’s not so common now as shunters tend to drive most places and newer rules mean just hitching a lift is pretty much impossible, but go back 15-20 years and it was easy to grab a lift or an impromptu cab ride route refresh if you were rail staff. 

Edited September 5, 2020 by PaulRhB

[PaulRhB]

35 minutes ago, ikcdab said:

No matter how you dress it up, this looks extremely unprofessional

I think there’s frequently too much focus on this from people who don’t know what’s going on as opposed to is it actually a sensible way of doing things in a certain situation? Much like a driver was told off for wearing a balaclava in a freezing cab because it looked unprofessional! Then people posting photos of a chap asleep in his railway van when he’s actually waiting to pick up a patrolman walking a section. This happened to a colleague of mine who finished his walk first and hopped in the van and had a nap in the passenger seat, he was hauled in to explain why he didn’t drive on to the next patrol, he then produced his driving licence to the bemused manager and pointed out he only held a tracked vehicle licence from his days in the army, he’d never driven a car or van!  
 

[101]

There are many reasons why there are more than two in the cab - I've had five in with me on a couple of occasions! It doesn't affect the drivers view at all and even if you have two people sat on desk on that side it's still  better than the very restricted view you get on some of the latest build of units!

As for concentration it's probably reduced a bit with all the chatting that is undoubtedly going on, however rest assured the others (especially traincrew) will taking notice of whats happening, especially when the AWS gives a warning.

Not sure when/where this photo was taken, but that end of a 60 is fairly tight even with three in and the third person has to stand and duck down to see ahead , my best guess would be that there are a couple of route learners, who are not learning that part of the route so are resting their legs.

 

Edit to add. As far as emergency braking is concerned I think you have a highly optimistic view of train brakes! no one will be thrown against the windscreen simply from braking 

Edited September 5, 2020 by 101

[russ p]

It a place people often sit on 60s and 66s , wont distract the driver or affect his visibility at all

If there are more than two in a 60 cab there isn't much room

The redmire job always had three in the cab . Driver , secondman and chargeman for the gates 

Whilst we take our job seriously we also like to be sociable when we can 

[rob D2]

Makes sense. Not an issue then.

 

Photo is about 20 plus years ago up north, so it’s not “ recognisable “, I’ve seen much more recent ones but I wouldn’t post them as you can see faces etc.

 

Brakes not as effective as I imagined then 

[russ p]

4 minutes ago, rob D2 said:

Makes sense. Not an issue then.

 

Photo is about 20 plus years ago up north, so it’s not “ recognisable “, I’ve seen much more recent ones but I wouldn’t post them as you can see faces etc.

 

Brakes not as effective as I imagined then 

 

Even if it hit something whilst sitting there you would be unlikely to go through the screen especially on a 60 as they are so strong 

[PaulRhB]

3 minutes ago, rob D2 said:

I’ve seen much more recent ones but I wouldn’t post them as you can see faces etc.

Well they know they can be photographed so they aren’t worried  

Problem is many managers and office people making up ‘safety rules’ now also haven’t worked their way up so assume similar. There’s been similar things pulled up by ladder climbers about many aspects of the railway rather than asking why quietly and realising it’s actually a good idea!

[TheSignalEngineer]

11 minutes ago, 101 said:

There are many reasons why there are more than two in the cab - I've had five in with me on a couple of occasions!

Cosiest cab ride I had was on a small shunter at Coventry. One was used with a medium goods wagon for moving parcels between the platforms and parcels depot in the 1960s.  

The AWS had failed on CY37 approaching the station on the Up Main. We put the inductor and tools on the wagon at the old loco shed behind  Coventry PSB then set off along the Down Main. Besides the driver we had a Traffic Inspector to supervise the movement as the only way back was wrong line. From the S&T there were the shift technicians from Coventry plus a lookout and two of us from the gang to help with lifting the kit off the wagon and fixing it down, a total of seven.

[TheSignalEngineer]

5 minutes ago, PaulRhB said:

There’s been similar things pulled up by ladder climbers about many aspects of the railway rather than asking why quietly and realising it’s actually a good idea!

A bit like some of the H&S rule, wearing a hard hat whilst doing something which involves hanging upside down is not that easy even with a chin strap.

[TheSignalEngineer]

18 minutes ago, rob D2 said:

Brakes not as effective as I imagined then 

The only time I got a few bruises whilst cab riding was in a Class 313. I was checking through the DC Lines before handing back on the day of the SSI commissioning in 1988. Running at 45mph through Carpenders Park we hit a redundant tripcock arm which had been missed by the recovery gang in the dark. Opening the air pipe in those circumstances leads to quite a rapid deceleration.

[Coryton]

5 minutes ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

The only time I got a few bruises whilst cab riding was in a Class 313. I was checking through the DC Lines before handing back on the day of the SSI commissioning in 1988. Running at 45mph through Carpenders Park we hit a redundant tripcock arm which had been missed by the recovery gang in the dark. Opening the air pipe in those circumstances leads to quite a rapid deceleration.

 

I've been on an underground train where they had to "Test out a safety system" or whatever it is they say when proceeding through a red signal.

 

Even at a low speed there's quite a jerk when the brakes come on.

[Wheatley]

He's leaning with his backside on the sloping part of the dash, wedged between the end of the instrument binnacle and the hotplate, which is in the front right hand corner. So he's standing/leaning rather than sitting. And the windscreen is proof against birdstrikes and worse so he isn't going to pop it out no matter how hard the braking. He might bang his head. 

 

Edit - on a lot of modern traction (most ?) you can't see anything out of the secondman's side from the left hand seat anyway, there's either a gangway connection, door frame or crash pillar in the way.

 

Fully agree with H&S (or PR) desk drivers getting wound up about things that aren't things, I am one and it can get very wearing explaining to the more excitable new ones that it's fine and they ought to go and find something actually dangerous to worry about. 

 

Edited September 5, 2020 by Wheatley

[The Johnster]

55 minutes ago, Coryton said:

Even at a low speed there's quite a jerk when the brakes come on.

In fact there is more of a jerk at lower speeds; at high speeds the brake needs a second or two before you begin to feel it starting to ‘bite’ and the wheels start to be retarded. 

[roythebus]

The only time I've been thrown forward on a loco was on a class 25 t Rugby. We'd just prepared the loco, the driver moved forward to go onto a couple of parcel vans and the straight air brake didn't appear to work. He realised and warned me so I braced myself as we hit the vans at about 8mph. I injured my right arm a bit. Then the air brake applied. No harm done otherwise. It's almost impossible to get thrown forward on a train unless the brake is applied fully at a low speed or hitting something very solid at any speed.

 

The process of passing a signal at danger on trip cock fitted lines is easy, the train stops, gets authority to pass the signal at danger, passes said signal, the train stop stops the train at very low speed hence the being thrown forward experienced. Driver re-sets the trip cock on the train and continues his journey. In the case of an unintentional SPAD, the amount of "jerk" depends on the speed of the train at the time! 

[NorthEndCab]

4 hours ago, ikcdab said:

No matter how you dress it up, this looks extremely unprofessional and almost certainly a distraction for the driver. I am sure that nobody who was in the cab for official reasons would sit like this.

It’s no more of a distraction than having a passenger in a car. 
 

There’s not many locos/units that have space in the cab for more than two. If you’re slim enough you can sit in the coat-rack on the second mans side of an HST maybe. 
 

I’ve only been knocked over once, and that was while road learning in a group. We had 3/4 runs up and down the branch we were learning. 
 

Three of us were in the back cab “familiarising ourselves with route maps,” whilst the instructor up front was assessing an ex-freight man who already signed the route who’d come over to us. 
 

He was a bit exuberant with the power handle, opened up too soon and took a 20mph junction a little over the limit....
 

I got knocked into the drivers seat and bashed my leg. My mate ended up on the floor and the guy who very definitely didn’t have the door open having a cigarette because that would be against the rules was an interesting shade of white afterwards, but otherwise unharmed

 

The poster above who mentioned lower speed braking is 100% correct. Aiming to stop HST air brakes smoothly on a “rising brake,” is much easier from higher speed then lower. 

[jcm@gwr]

4 hours ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

A bit like some of the H&S rule, wearing a hard hat whilst doing something which involves hanging upside down is not that easy even with a chin strap.

 

Probably safer to be wearing a 'cricketers box' in that situation!

[Merfyn Jones]

For those interested. Photo is at Llysfaen on the up line. Probably a loaded ballast from Penmaenmawr.

[TravisM]

The elephant in the room is whether the train is moving, standing at a signal or some other reason.  Reminds of one of the gutter rags publishing a picture of the driver of a HST reading a newspaper with the headline “Train driver reads newspaper at speed” failing to mention that the train was at a stand by a signal.

[PaulRhB]

1 hour ago, jools1959 said:

The elephant in the room is whether the train is moving, standing at a signal or some other reason.

Not in this case as explained above it is perfectly normal behaviour and was common at that time although less so now due to restrictions on riding in cabs and ground staff mostly using vans. 
As you say in other cases concerning the driver the picture often only tells part of the story but as with the example with our Pway snoozing I mentioned it’s easy enough to explain if innocent. 
As our trainers used to say never assume as it can make an ‘ass out of U & me!’ There’s always been people who try to score points pointing out others errors in all industries and the tabloid media seems to attract them, or is it a qualification they look for? 

[TheSignalEngineer]

8 hours ago, Wheatley said:

And the windscreen is proof against birdstrikes

Many years ago I was on a meeting at Derby Research and was taken for a look around afterwards. The APT people were testing windscreens and told us that they tried firing bricks at them at 150mph but the brick disintegrated. They found the ideal projectile was a frozen chicken.