Drivers mate sitting against the windscreen ?

[Edwin_m]

I was one of about 8 in the front cab of a 159 once … and one of the others was an HMRI Inspector.  

[russ p]

I've just taken this sorry about the quality that light is interfering with my tablet camera,  but you can see anyone sitting in front of the secondmans seat is well outside the drivers field of vision 

 

 

[The Johnster]

Illustrated well.  The driver is mostly looking to sight the next signal from the greatest distance possible and will be in a relaxed position in his seat, occasionally glancing at the dials to check his speed and that all is well, but mostly focussing straight ahead out of the front window to a point about a mile away; anyone sitting on the dashboard to his right will only be in his peripheral even if they are quite close to him and up against the window or the central pillar.  He will stop short enough of signals to be able to see them from his relaxed position, usually more than a coach length short; he doesn't want to walk far to the phone if it's raining but he doesn't want to crane his neck either.  The job requires concentration and alertness, and distractions from physical discomfort are not welcome; what you are looking for is a sort of laid back but sharp awareness of what is going on.

Edited September 5, 2020 by The Johnster

[NorthEndCab]

6 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

Illustrated well.  The driver is mostly looking to sight the next signal from the greatest distance possible and will be in a relaxed position in his seat, occasionally glancing at the dials to check his speed and that all is well, but mostly focussing straight ahead out of the front window to a point about a mile away; anyone sitting on the dashboard to his right will only be in his peripheral even if they are quite close to him and up against the window or the central pillar.  He will stop short enough of signals to be able to see them from his relaxed position, usually more than a coach length short; he doesn't want to walk far to the phone if it's raining but he doesn't want to crane his neck either.  The job requires concentration and alertness, and distractions from physical discomfort are not welcome; what you are looking for is a sort of laid back but sharp awareness of what is going on.

 

I was told that if you’re doing it correctly, you should be able to have someone in the second mans seat for the whole trip and not be able to describe what they look like when you get out. 

[TravisM]

3 hours ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

Many years ago I was on a meeting at Derby Research and was taken for a look around afterwards. The APT people were testing windscreens and told us that they tried firing bricks at them at 150mph but the brick disintegrated. They found the ideal projectile was a frozen chicken.

That’s the same story with SNCF and their TGV’s.  They borrowed a pneumatic gun from Rolls Royce for testing FOD ingress into their engines.  SNCF set it all up and were horrified when the chicken went through the windscreen, decapitated the manikin, through the high voltage cabinet and buried itself in the internal workings.  They sent RR a multi page fax as they couldn’t understand what went wrong.  After a few moments, a single page fax returned and all it said was “Next time defrost the chicken”.  I don’t know if there’s any truth in it but why let the truth get in the way of a good story 

[The Johnster]

We had secondmen at Canton that you wouldn't want to describe when you got out as well... 

 

You should be able to have a full conversation with a driver who cannot identify you when you get out of the cab.  

[The Johnster]

14 minutes ago, jools1959 said:

That’s the same story with SNCF and their TGV’s.  They borrowed a pneumatic gun from Rolls Royce for testing FOD ingress into their engines.  SNCF set it all up and were horrified when the chicken went through the windscreen, decapitated the manikin, through the high voltage cabinet and buried itself in the internal workings.  They sent RR a multi page fax as they couldn’t understand what went wrong.  After a few moments, a single page fax returned and all it said was “Next time defrost the chicken”.  I don’t know if there’s any truth in it but why let the truth get in the way of a good story 

One of those stories that, if it isn't true, should be...  Hit a swan at about 60 mph with a Western on an oil train between Llanelli and Burry Port on the down.  Of course, I should have been safely in the back cab, but my excuse was that the driver is in charge of the loco and as such I should sit where he told me to.  Anyway, we were rocking along minding our own business and Mr Swan was going the other way at about 25 mph when he suddenly decided to investigate the big blue thing with the flat front.  It was terrifying; the thing exploded with a huge bang and there were blood and feathers all over my window; the driver thought is was most amusing.  The Triplex held, though, not a mark on it that couldn't be wiped off.  I got my own back on the return journey, when an RAF jet from the bombing range lined up for a mock attack and roared over the loco from behind at about 600mph and maybe 30 feet above us; driver not amused, but I was, having watched him circle and not told the driver what was coming!

Edited September 5, 2020 by The Johnster

[F-UnitMad]

9 hours ago, The Johnster said:

One of those stories that, if it isn't true, should be..

Re "defrost the chicken", the version I've heard was British aircraft designers advising their American counterparts.

[PaulRhB]

There are at least four versions of the frozen chicken story involving aircraft and high speed trains.
 

Difficult to tell which came first, the frozen chicken or the eggs-ageration!  

[PaulRhB]

9 hours ago, The Johnster said:

It was terrifying; the thing exploded with a huge bang and there were blood and feathers all over my window

Plus there’s those where you see it coming as a bird tries to outrun the train and I’ve seen a few close their eyes just in case the inner skin shatters. I’ve also see the results of the window actually being smashed by a brick and the cab was covered in fine glass like glitter so we sent the driver to hospital to get their eyes flushed just in case, fortunately the wiper took most of the impact so it didn’t carry on through into the driver. 

[rob D2]

Lots of versions of that .

I think the original version of jet engine testing could be true .

 

Having been exposed to the latest RR product for 7 years, I’m surprised they didn’t fire the engine at the chicken ..

 

but we digress 

[PaulRhB]

2 minutes ago, rob D2 said:

Lots of versions of that .

I think the original version of jet engine testing could be true .

I’ve seen footage of aircraft windscreens and canopies being tested so it’s likely the glass manufacturer does similar tests for trains or possibly uses the same spec glass. I suspect it’s been worth testing a lower spec than is required for a jet aircraft with the huge railway market though. 

[Edwin_m]

22 minutes ago, PaulRhB said:

I’ve seen footage of aircraft windscreens and canopies being tested so it’s likely the glass manufacturer does similar tests for trains or possibly uses the same spec glass. I suspect it’s been worth testing a lower spec than is required for a jet aircraft with the huge railway market though. 

The railway requirement may be more stringent than for aircraft in some ways.  Aircraft may hit non-frozen birds from time to time but they don't generally encounter flying bricks.  On the other hand a rail windscreen has a lower impact speed and doesn't have the stresses from pressurization.  

[PaulRhB]

Yes so I’m sure they have done tests to compare but most are nowhere near as exciting as the anecdote  

[The Johnster]

I recall there were a series of windscreen tests when the HSTs were introduced, the standard IIRC being a half brick at 125mph.  

 

A sadly genuine horror story was the Treherbert conductor guard riding the front cab of a 116 killed at Woodville Road bridge on the approach to Cardiff Queen Street.  This was in the mid 70s before the opening of Cathays Station about 100 yards south of this bridge and trains from the Valleys direction would still be popping along at a fair rate, about 50mph; kids on the bridge, which was being road resurfaced at the time, chucked a kerb stone over in front of the train.  No window can reasonably be expected to withstand a thing of this size, and the stone came through the 116's rh cab window and into the passenger saloon, fortunately nobody sitting in the front bays, and decapitated the guard above the jaw, killing him instantly.

 

The driver pulled up under control at Queen Street but was removed from the cab in a state of severe shock and hysteria, understandably having witnessed such a thing.  BR initially withheld  paying the widow's pension to the guard's wife as he'd been in the cab, but there were several possible authorised reasons for his presence there, and he could not have been there without the driver's permission.  We staged a one day strike on Valleys services in protest at this and to raise awareness of attacks on trains, and BR relented.  The kids were apprehended and served some time in custody.

 

My own worst experience was in a brake van at St Julien's on the way out of Newport on the N,A,&H route, where an overbridge gives access to some allottments.  It was mid evening in summer and the kids dropped a large ceramic chimney pot on to the leading edge of the van roof,  The pot exploded and took out the leading cabin windows and there was a good bit of sharp broken pottery and glass.  I was badly shaken but unhurt.  Brake van glass was normal window glass and not strengthened in any way.  I reversed the side lamps to alert attention, and we were stopped and 'put inside' at Llantarnam Jc.  I cleaned the van out as best I could with the signalbox broom, and there was no replacement van available for me according to control. but as it was a warm evening I agreed to work forward to to Hereford where a fresh van was available for my relief.  Police turned up at the bridge but the miscreants were long gone of course.

 

Another fright, in the cab of a 116 on the first Rhymney on a cold morning, was hitting a large icicle which had formed at the bottom of one of the ventilation shafts in Caerphilly Tunnel.  The cab window Triplex held; we were doing about 35mph, but it was a huge bang!  We pulled up and cleared the down line of some dmu derailing size lumps of solid ice, which took several days to melt; it's not always vandals!

 

On a lighter note, I once worked a train of 100ton oil tanks up from Llanelli as a back working.  We were a full crew, including secondman, and as we'd had some time to kill in Llanelli, went for a walk around the town.  This was just before xmas, and the secondman bought a plastic replica Winchester Repeating Rifle, Billy the Kid's weapon of choice, in Woolworth's as an xmas pressie for his nephew.  Appropriate in a way, because the stretch of the SWML between St Fagan's and Ely Bridge was known as cowboy country for the number of stones thrown at trains, a black spot being 'Birdie's Lane', which crossed the River Ely just after passing beneath the by a low underbridge, just the sort of place kids gather and get up to miscreancy most foul.  Brian BR2975 knows it well...

 

Just past this, the line crosses the river on a plate girder bridge, something it does several time on this stretch, and, sure enough, here was a typical of the breed likely lad with a stone ready in his hand standing on the parapet on the down side.   Secondman cooly dropped his cab window, picked up the Winchester, and took a bead on the lad as we approached, who stepped back in amazement and wide eyed open mouthed gormless terror, into the river of course, stone still in hand, but incorporating the full comedy attempt at saving himself by waving his arms to try to balance.  We were still laughing when we were relieved at Canton Sidings!  Attacks on trains at Birdie's subsided for a while after that; still brings a smile to my face 45 years or so later!

 

Never had a frozen chicken thrown at me, though, must add it to the bucket list...

 

'I'll tell you the story of my cousin Jim

Somebody threw a tomato at 'im

Now, tomatoes are soft and they don't break the skin

But this b*gger did, it was still in the tin'.

Edited September 6, 2020 by The Johnster

[rob D2]

If you chuck anything like a brick at a train window, it should be attempted murder.

[TravisM]

20 hours ago, Edwin_m said:

The railway requirement may be more stringent than for aircraft in some ways.  Aircraft may hit non-frozen birds from time to time but they don't generally encounter flying bricks.  On the other hand a rail windscreen has a lower impact speed and doesn't have the stresses from pressurization.  

I’m kind of going to have to disagree that windscreen’s on locomotives are more stringent, because both are likely to be impacted at lower altitudes or heights but on aircraft, greater speeds.  I was watching a episode of “Plane Reclaimer” and they were discussing removing the windscreens and their value.  
 

I got the impression that there worth a few thousand and impact resistant to withstand impacts with birds etc.  You only have to watch or read about US Air flight 1549 and apart from the damage to the engines, the aircraft was struck several times on the nose and windscreen by a flock of Canada Geese who probably weigh about the same as a swan, and the windows remained unscathed.

Edited September 7, 2020 by jools1959
Spelling and grammar

[PMP]

On 06/09/2020 at 20:14, jools1959 said:

 
 

I got the impression that there worth a few thousand and impact resistant to withstand impacts with birds etc.  

They’re worth tens of thousands, I’ve seen prices around the $35k Usd (a few years back too), depending on type/complexity etc. Some airlines adopt a heated windshield on for approach and departure which assists with maintaining plasticity and structure of the screen in the event of a strike rather than the potential of greater shatter related damage of a cold screen. The frozen chicken old wives tale has been around for a long long time, I first heard it in the mid 80’s at BAe.

[Crisis Rail]

On 05/09/2020 at 10:03, rob D2 said:

Makes sense. Not an issue then.

 

Photo is about 20 plus years ago up north, so it’s not “ recognisable “, I’ve seen much more recent ones but I wouldn’t post them as you can see faces etc.

 

Brakes not as effective as I imagined then 

 

Up Nooorth.

 

That explains it then

[rob D2]

1 hour ago, Crisis Rail said:

 

Up Nooorth.

 

That explains it then

Internet doesn’t go that far north...

[rob D2]

1 hour ago, PMP said:

They’re worth tens of thousands, I’ve seen prices around the $35k Usd (a few years back too), depending on type/complexity etc. Some airlines adopt a heated windshield on for approach and departure which assists with maintaining plasticity and structure of the screen in the event of a strike rather than the potential of greater shatter related damage of a cold screen. The frozen chicken old wives tale has been around for a long long time, I first heard it in the mid 80’s at BAe.

Ours is on all the time, unless the meter needs another 50p

[LBRJ]

On 06/09/2020 at 15:44, rob D2 said:

If you chuck anything like a brick at a train window, it should be attempted murder.

 

I know of an incident where some toe rag launched a large stone over a bridge, it did smash through the window and injured the driver.

Despite wanting to charge him with attempted murder, the CPS advised that there would be no chance of him being found guilty.

So he was charged with a lesser offence (cant recall what) and got 30 months inside.

 

On a lighter note I have also been there when we hit a heron while we were doing "about 50" Down the branch alongside the river  (which was actually going Up the branch, but some ex SR branches are weird ltike tha).

To say it made a bit of a bang would be quite some understatement!

[The Johnster]

Back in the 70s, locomotive windscreens were Triplex strengthened glass, with gold wired screen heating on some classes.  The Triplex was, IIRC, the same standard as introduced in the 60s for car windscreens, and if they were broken, shattered into small pieces which were probably less dangerous than a plate of glass coming at you backed up by a brick at 90mph, but still caused a large amount of minor cut injury and could of course take an eye out.  Aircraft are a different beast; a strike at 600mph can cause decompression and bring the plane down, but a brick rarely derails a train.

 

The perps at the Woodville Road incident were (rightly IMHO) charged with and found guilty of attempted murder IIRC, and were kept in youth detention centres and, when they were old enough, prison, for some time. There was a campaign in the local area, Cathays, to have the charges reduced to manslaughter but this was not successful.  Lives ruined and no good done, and nothing that I noticed in terms of a deterrent effect.

[Wheatley]

1 hour ago, LBRJ said:

 

So he was charged with a lesser offence (cant recall what) and got 30 months inside.

 

More than likely "endangering the safety of persons being conveyed upon a railway" contrary to the Offences Against The Person Act 1861. Easier to prove than attempted murder as there is no requirement to prove intent, only that danger was caused. However, depending on the degree of any intent which can be proved, it can still carry a life sentence. 

Edited September 8, 2020 by Wheatley

[Rugd1022]

The last time I was assessed there were four of us in the cab, the assessor sat wedged into the corner with his back to the window, he knew exactly where he was and he knew that I knew exactly where I was too. This was in the no.2 cab of a 66 which is quite cramped (the no.1 cab is only slightly bigger), the four of us played musical chairs for the entire twelve hour shift, with each of us taking a turn in the naughty corner. To say we know our routes backwards is not an understatement .