D5578 - did it or didn't it ?

[MRE2]

Class 31 C5578 was one of 2 locos painted into prototype colours, following a proposal by Brian Haresnape. We know that D5579 ran in ochre with white lining, but did D5578 ever run according to Brian's proposal with white lining, shown below (with graphic artists numbers) with the model produced by Triang ? Plenty of pictures show D5578 in plain blue (with and without small yellow panels) but none that follow the proposal drawings. Or maybe Triang pulled a stunt and I have just been unlucky in my research ?
I have seen the colour described variously as Electric Blue, Chromatic Blue, French Blue, Nanking Blue, and XP64 Blue, and period pictures are variable from quite dark to very light. Any ideas which is the correct shade ?

[BrushVeteran]

D5578 was not adorned with the white stripes whilst painted in french blue similar to D5579 in golden ochre livery. It did however carry white cab roofs for a short while which Stratford depot applied for a royal Train working. I attach two images taken at different stages of its period in french blue livery.

[stewartingram]

Looks like the roof was grey on those - I always thought it was all over blue?

 

Stewart

[Wickham Green too]

Odd that the blue seems to be in far better nick in the ( presumably ) later photo !

[jonny777]

Here is a Norman Preedy shot of D5578 at Gloucester in May 1968. 

 

I wonder if it was repainted from blue with FYE, or if it had a small yellow panel in green as well? 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[stovepipe]

There doesn't seem to be any photos of D5578 in experimental blue after mid/late 1963, so I imagine at 4 years old, it was due in work by that point. Standard green colours would then have been applied with yellow warning panel, and then full yellow ends as above. A short while after Norman Preedy's photo it went to works again to be re-engined, emerging in the early BR blue style with bodyside D numbers at each end.

[SRman]

Brian Haresnape suggested Peacock Blue, but what was applied was darker.

As far as Triang's attempts at the blue livery, both were fictional, with the second being very attractive with its white roof and white stripes, as in the OP. The earliest release was this one, below.


Triang Blue Brush Type 2 - 2 by Jeffrey Lynn, on Flickr

[jim.snowdon]

1 hour ago, SRman said:

Brian Haresnape suggested Peacock Blue, but what was applied was darker.

As far as Triang's attempts at the blue livery, both were fictional, with the second being very attractive with its white roof and white stripes, as in the OP. The earliest release was this one, below.


Triang Blue Brush Type 2 - 2 by Jeffrey Lynn, on Flickr

It won't have been the first time a manufacturer has been caught out by the as-built prototype being different from the early design drawings.

 

Jim

[jonny777]

2 hours ago, stovepipe said:

There doesn't seem to be any photos of D5578 in experimental blue after mid/late 1963, so I imagine at 4 years old, it was due in work by that point. Standard green colours would then have been applied with yellow warning panel, and then full yellow ends as above. A short while after Norman Preedy's photo it went to works again to be re-engined, emerging in the early BR blue style with bodyside D numbers at each end.

 

I wonder if that made it the BR diesel loco which carried the most livery variations before TOPS renumbering? 

 

[russ p]

I never realised it ran in its blue livery with a yellow panel. 

This must be the only brush 2 to run in any kind of blue with a small panel

Did 5579 go from golden ochre to blue?

[TheSignalEngineer]

25 minutes ago, jonny777 said:

 

I wonder if that made it the BR diesel loco which carried the most livery variations before TOPS renumbering? 

 

The LMS Twins probably each carried more without getting as far as being renumbered

[jonny777]

Yes, thanks. I had forgotten about them. 

[GERARDTCC]

D5578 was repainted from the experimental blue into standard green with small yellow panels during a general overhaul at Doncaster completed on 17/9/64. Full yellow ends were applied at an Intermediate Heavy repair at Doncaster from which it was released on 4/4/67 when the existing green was touched up.

Norman Preedy's photo above was taken a few days before it re-entered Doncaster on 16/5/68, it emerged from a general overhaul painted in the first standard style of blue applied to 31s with cabside arrows and bodyside numbers on 18/6/68. It carried this until its next intermediate repair when it received the recognised version of blue with central bodyside arrows with which it appeared on 21/5/71. It received two more repaints in this style as 31160 on 8/2/75 and 13/10/79 before being repainted into railfreight livery on (according to my notes) 4/3/86. My records don't go much beyond that but it lasted until 1995.

 

D5579 lasted quite a bit longer in golden ochre and looked very tatty by the time it entered Doncaster for a repaint into standard green with small panels on a general overhaul which commenced on 13/1/66, emerging on 5/2/66.

It too received yellow ends in April '67 but retained its 1966 coat of green until 31/3/71 when it visited Doncaster for an intermediate repair (Its 1968 visit had seen a re-varnish in green.) It went straight into blue with central bodyside arrows being released on 28/4/71. Like 5578 it received two more repaints in this livery as 31161on 8/1/75 and 26/5/79, going railfreight on 6/10/85. It subsequently reverted to standard blue when converted to become 31400 which entered service on 13/5/88. Its last working was on 22/6/91 and it was condemned soon after.

Hope this helps.

[MRE2]

Thank you everyone. Must admit I'm a bit disappointed that D5578 never ran as per the design and Triang model, and similar to D5579. I was hoping to make up a matching pair. I guess that blue with a small yellow panel is somewhat unusual in itself though.

[stovepipe]

10 hours ago, stewartingram said:

Looks like the roof was grey on those - I always thought it was all over blue?

 

Stewart

 

9 hours ago, Wickham Green too said:

Odd that the blue seems to be in far better nick in the ( presumably ) later photo !

 

I think these are probably both remnants of the Royal Train working BV referred too. There seems to have been a visit by the DofE to Norfolk in May 1963, which may have been the occasion. I'm sure I've read somewhere that a Mirlees engined loco failed on a royal working, perhaps it was this one?

[stewartingram]

I remember reading about an embarrassing failure of, I believe, the first ever working of a diesel (Brush 2) on the Royal train. After that they started putting a pair on the train, just in case...

 

Stewart

[Pandora]

In my youth as a young spotter, my late Father arrived home from work with the news of seeing the  pair  working  in tandem on freight working, both in their experimental liveries and passing through Rossington Level Crossing , ( ECML between Doncaster and Bawtry) he  noted the information to give to me when he arrived home from work,  I have no other source to back this  up, father had no interest in railways, yet he  quoted the correct loco numbers, which lends a degree of credibilty  to the statement, would a non-enthusiast  fabricate such accurate  details?

He thought it was newsworthy of these locos with their unusual liveries  for a  young son with a strong spotters interest.

i wonder if there are any photographs of the pair D5578/9 at work together

Edited September 14, 2020 by Pandora

[stewartingram]

I lived alongside the "loop" (Cambridge-St.Ives-March) c1959-62. I saw the 2 locos on a number of occasions. Once, there were double-heading over Milton Road (A10 to Ely) LC, and I quickly grabbed a picture. Sadly some of my schoolfriends got hold of my camera  and opened the back. Scrotes.

 

Stewart 

[BrushVeteran]

I have only this poor scan from a BR Design Panel handout which the late Brian Haresnape gave me back in the late sixties. I would imagine that quite a few transparencies were taken to record this event so maybe they will surface one day.

[Pandora]

On 07/09/2020 at 21:19, MRE2 said:

Thank you everyone. Must admit I'm a bit disappointed that D5578 never ran as per the design and Triang model, and similar to D5579. I was hoping to make up a matching pair. I guess that blue with a small yellow panel is somewhat unusual in itself though.

Hornby produced  D5579  in Ochre as a commission, possibly for Kernow, the model is the high-end Class 31, Lima produced D5578 in experimental blue including ends, no warning panels.

i have the Hornby model for D5579,  for Lima, only a bodyshell from  at a swapmeet, a railroad 31 chassis with the  modern drive bogie  will be paired to the bodyshell of D5578 to make my pair of locos

[bécasse]

It is perhaps worth mentioning that Stratford had habitually painted cab roofs white when preparing steam locomotives for Royal Train workings so doing the same for D5578 was only a continuation of a long(?) tradition. Oddly, it can be quite difficult to pick out the white roofs of steam locos in photos because the human eye assumes that is merely a trick of the light, and, of course, the roofs didn't stay white for long once the loco concerned returned to normal traffic.

[Big_Bad_John]

On 07/09/2020 at 09:21, MRE2 said:

Class 31 C5578 was one of 2 locos painted into prototype colours, following a proposal by Brian Haresnape. We know that D5579 ran in ochre with white lining, but did D5578 ever run according to Brian's proposal with white lining, shown below (with graphic artists numbers) with the model produced by Triang ? Plenty of pictures show D5578 in plain blue (with and without small yellow panels) but none that follow the proposal drawings. Or maybe Triang pulled a stunt and I have just been unlucky in my research ?
I have seen the colour described variously as Electric Blue, Chromatic Blue, French Blue, Nanking Blue, and XP64 Blue, and period pictures are variable from quite dark to very light. Any ideas which is the correct shade ?

I've got both D5578 and D5579 by Lima and they are in plain 'electric' blue and golden ochre respectively with no white lining, roof or white cab window surrounds, this can't be correct surely.  When I've clicked on attachments they come up microscopically small, this can't be correct either, anyone got any actual visible photos? ha ha

 

I've seen the D5578 by Triang with the white lining and cream roof, did they bring out a golden ochre one in the same design?, I don't remember that and have never seen a model of it.   

 

 

Here's a blue one

Edited July 15, 2023 by Big_Bad_John

[Big_Bad_John]

Well I stand corrected on the Golden Ochre one by Lima albeit with a grey roof but I was correct about the electric blue one, are they correct replicas of the real machines though?  Neither loco has the yellow panels on the ends.

 

 

Edited July 15, 2023 by Big_Bad_John

[Wickham Green too]

MRE2 reckoned to have "seen the colour described variously as Electric Blue, Chromatic Blue, French Blue, Nanking Blue, and XP64 Blue," ...... that Lima model looks remarkably like Wishy-Washy Blue to me ! ☹️

[Big_Bad_John]

Should it be a darker blue like the Triang one I posted first then with the white lines and grey or cream roof?, in my experience the motors in Triang R357 Class 31s are a bit iffy, I've just had to replace the motor bogie in mine (D5572 blue), the main advantage is there are no wires to the trailing bogie, you just fit it and go.  The 'Electric', 'Chromatic', 'French' or 'Nanking' blue Triang Class 31 is no. R357B, if I bought that one it would give me three Triang ones and I'd get rid of the Lima one that is obviously incorrect leaving three by that make.  Question now, how did Ities expect to know exactly what a British loco looks like?!

 

Oh, by the way, it was also called 'Experimental Blue'.

Edited July 15, 2023 by Big_Bad_John