Class 1366 GWR Pannier Tank

[GSWR68]

Hi guys,

 

I am doing some research for a layout I am just starting based in the Bournemouth area. I have learnt today that Class 1366 PTs operated, for example, at Weymouth and I have just seen a B/W photo of 1367 which shows BR crests. What I would like to know please is whether these locos would have been green still and if so what exact colour that would be. It so happens that I have a nice Hornby Pannier that would suit the job really well!

 

Thanks.

 

Paul

[Marshall5]

In B.R. days the 1366 class were always black.

Cheers,

Ray.

[Oldddudders]

Not my field, but I am aware that Panniers were available in a number of shapes and sizes. The 1366 class unusually had outside cylinders, which I suspect the Hornby one does not. This page reveals much about the breed. Note the 1366 at Weymouth had a bell. 

 

http://www.gwr.org.uk/nopanniers.html

[GSWR68]

5 minutes ago, Marshall5 said:

In B.R. days the 1366 class were always black.

Cheers,

Ray.

 

Hi Ray,

Thanks for your reply and the information.

 

Cheers,

Paul

 

[GSWR68]

22 minutes ago, Oldddudders said:

Not my field, but I am aware that Panniers were available in a number of shapes and sizes. The 1366 class unusually had outside cylinders, which I suspect the Hornby one does not. This page reveals much about the breed. Note the 1366 at Weymouth had a bell. 

 

http://www.gwr.org.uk/nopanniers.html

 

Hi Olddudders,

Thanks for your reply. The photo that I found was captioned and explained about the outside cylinders, which I had not come across before - however there is another Pannier behind which is a normal Pannier; at least I now know what livery to do!

 

 

[Il Grifone]

They were originally a Cornwall Minerals Railway design* which the GWR found useful, rebuilt with saddle tanks and then built some more to basically the same design. When the originals were finally worn out, they were replaced with this pannier tank version. They are generally smaller than the other pannier tank designs,so it is not just a question of adding connecting rods and cylinders.

* As in bought in from Sharp Stewart and Company

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GWR_1366_Class

Edited September 8, 2020 by Il Grifone

[rab]

When, they were transferred to Wadebridge they were black.

[Compound2632]

@GSWR68, from your comment about having a Hornby Pannier, I infer that you are modelling in 00 / 4 mm/ft scale. In which case, there is the Heljan 1366 class model available, which would appear to be spot on for you, though you may have to hunt around for a black one.

[The Stationmaster]

On 08/09/2020 at 17:33, Il Grifone said:

They were originally a Cornwall Minerals Railway design* which the GWR found useful, rebuilt with saddle tanks and then built some more to basically the same design. When the originals were finally worn out, they were replaced with this pannier tank version. They are generally smaller than the other pannier tank designs,so it is not just a question of adding connecting rods and cylinders.

* As in bought in from Sharp Stewart and Company

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GWR_1366_Class

A rather more complicated story than that.  The Cornwall Minerals Railway 0-6-0 tanks built by Sharp Stewart were originally side tank engines designed to work as back-to-back pairs but were converted to saddle tanks - working ads individual engines in 1883-4 when they were about 10 years old.  The GWR leased the line from 1877 and took it over in 1896 so presumably the conversion to saddle tanks was at their behest (and probably their cost) and reboilering of the engines in 1895 was done with Swindon built boilers.  

 

The surviving engines were again reboilered from 1910 onwards using the new design of boiler drawn up for the 1361 class which - as noted above - was in many respects a modernisation of the rebuilt CMR engines.  The 1366 pannier tank was in turn a 1930s design that was modernisation of the 1361 class saddle tank however by then there was little remaining sign of their original ancestry beyond the wheel base and size and the use of outside cylinders. Both the Swindon designs used Stephenson valve gear instead of the Allan Straight Link motion of the original CMR engines and in all other respects they were both to their respective contemporaneous GWR design standards.

 

As for use of these engines on the south coast Weymouth was the nearest they ever got to Bournemouth and they were only there to work the Harbour Tramway

[Il Grifone]

I did edit the story a bit!

Swindon always thought knew their way was superior.... (see below!)

[57xx]

On 10/09/2020 at 17:44, The Stationmaster said:

A rather more complicated story than that.  The Cornwall Minerals Railway 0-6-0 tanks built by Sharp Stewart were originally side tank engines designed to work as back-to-back pairs but were converted to saddle tanks - working ads individual engines in 1883-4 when they were about 10 years old.  The GWR leased the line from 1877 and took it over in 1896 so presumably the conversion to saddle tanks was at their behest (and probably their cost) and reboilering of the engines in 1895 was done with Swindon built boilers.  

 

The surviving engines were again reboilered from 1910 onwards using the new design of boiler drawn up for the 1361 class which - as noted above - was in many respects a modernisation of the rebuilt CMR engines.  The 1366 pannier tank was in turn a 1930s design that was modernisation of the 1361 class saddle tank however by then there was little remaining sign of their original ancestry beyond the wheel base and size and the use of outside cylinders. Both the Swindon designs used Stephenson valve gear instead of the Allan Straight Link motion of the original CMR engines and in all other respects they were both to their respective contemporaneous GWR design standards.

 

As for use of these engines on the south coast Weymouth was the nearest they ever got to Bournemouth and they were only there to work the Harbour Tramway

 

[Andy Kirkham]

Almost all pannier tanks were unlined black in BR days. Some that worked empty stock at Paddington were lined black, and some members of the 64XX class were painted lined green.

[Butler Henderson]

The 57xx "8750"  loco behind the "1366" in the OPs photo is likely to be one of 3737, 3759, 4624, 4689, 8799, 9620, 9756. Should be noted the GW locos at Weymouth were for the former GW route to Yeovil and the chance of a Pannier finding its way to Bournemouth very unlikley.

[Steamport Southport]

If you like 1366 panniers at Weymouth then watch this film.

 

 

You should be able to find it online and I doubt a DVD would be very expensive.

 

It says horror, but it's the sort of horror you will now find on daytime TV.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Damned_(1963_film)

 

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0056576/

 

 

 

Jason

[Andy Kirkham]

18 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

If you like 1366 panniers at Weymouth then watch this film.

 

 

You should be able to find it online and I doubt a DVD would be very expensive.

 

It says horror, but it's the sort of horror you will now find on daytime TV.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Damned_(1963_film)

 

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0056576/

 

Jason

 

Intriguing - directed by Joseph Losey and "based on" a story by D.H.Lawrence.

 

The prime characteristic of the 1361 and 1366 were their very high route availablity. I read somewhere that they had been designed "to go anywhere a wagon could go". Hence they were able to take over from the three Beattie well tanks which had survived for 60 years beyond their expected lifespan while the LSWR and the Southern sought in vain for a more modern class to work the Wenford Bridge branch. Apparently they had tried a P class 0-6-0T but even that minuscule machine was too much for the track.

[lapford34102]

52 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

If you like 1366 panniers at Weymouth then watch this film

Great find, I'll have to track a copy down though I've got no recollection of seeing any filming. If any of the 1366's crew get in shot be interesting to see if I recognise anyone,

 

Stu

[Steamport Southport]

The film itself is just average 1960s horror/sci fi/teenage biker gang movie. You could really move it to the US and have James Dean rather than Oliver Reed and the story would be the same.

 

The interesting bit is the panniers going up and down in the background. it could have been filmed anywhere but Weymouth makes it special and timeless. A bit of modernity and "old world" clashing.

 

Some screen captures here. I don't think it gives any spoliers.

 

https://www.reelstreets.com/films/damned-the-1963/

 

 

 

Jason

[Il Grifone]

I would say where it's available online, but I don't want to be responsible for wasting anyone's valuable modelling time!

 

Edited September 12, 2020 by Il Grifone

[Steamport Southport]

It's on YouTube and Daily Motion.

 

I wouldn't trust a site that you need to download from to watch.

 

 

 

 

Jason

[The Johnster]

On 11/09/2020 at 23:33, Andy Kirkham said:

Almost all pannier tanks were unlined black in BR days. Some that worked empty stock at Paddington were lined black, and some members of the 64XX class were painted lined green.

54xx also; as auto fitted locos they were considered suitable for lined green passenger livery post 1956.  There were also 8750 panniers in lined black mixed traffic livery employed on Old Oak-Paddington ecs work.  
 

Questions had been apparently asked in parliament following a letter to the Times about the unfashionably Victorian appearance of locos visible from the lawn at Paddington and their unsuitability to represent the modernist outlook of BR, and the WR was sensitive on the subject; the result was the deployment of 94xx and the rather unsuitable 15xx dock shunters to the work; I believe some 15xx may have also been given lined black livery.  
 

Nobody seems to have worried about the antediluvian looking pre-grouping M7s over at Waterloo, and the later use of 45xx, a design predating the 8750s by several decades, on Paddington ecs work seems to have been acceptably ‘modern’ to the Times’ readership...

Edited September 13, 2020 by The Johnster

[Steamport Southport]

Were they though?

 

Just look like virtually every other side tank locomotive to me of which there were thousands of them in all the major cities and which many lasted until nearly the end of steam. N2s. N7s, CR 0-4-4Ts, L&YR 2-4-2Ts, etc. 

 

I certainly don't think this looks particularly antiquated. It looks far more modern than a GWR 14XX.

 

Photo Wiki no credit

 

 

 

Jason

[rab]

3 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

I certainly don't think this looks particularly antiquated. It looks far more modern than a GWR 14XX.

 

Photo Wiki no credit

 

 

 

Jason

You do realise you've just started another

'GWR against the rest' war don't you.

[Oldddudders]

15 minutes ago, rab said:

You do realise you've just started another

'GWR against the rest' war don't you.

Ooh, goodie! The world's popcorn purveyors need a boost right now!

 

[Il Grifone]

Wasn't the  'antiquated' appearance of the pannier tanks the excuse for the post war tank designs (15xx, 94xx) ?

 

When you let fashion get in the way of engineering you get some awful designs  - almost anything streamlined and this   https://www.google.com/search?q=ford+edsel&client=firefox-b-d&sxsrf=ALeKk02DeMAJLJMdhC2esBSe1X2zUsDm_w:1600090671716&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwio3uGg4ujrAhXJTMAKHdTpC0cQ_AUoAXoECB0QAw&biw=1296&bih=666

 

Personal opinion of course (there are other even more  hideous cars - fill in your own choice).

 

As regards M7 versus 14xx, The basic shape is  much the same - tall chimney, bulbous dome etc. it's just an 0-4-4T rather than a 0-4-2T. I won't comment on the tail-wagging propensities of 0-4-4Ts....

 

 

[The Stationmaster]

9 minutes ago, Il Grifone said:

Wasn't the  'antiquated' appearance of the pannier tanks the excuse for the post war tank designs (15xx, 94xx) ?

 

 

 

 

Exactly so.   When Hawksworth presented to GWR HQ at Paddington his proposal to construct  a further 200 of the 8750 version of the 57XX pannier tanks the proposal was accompanied, as usual, by a diagram of the proposed design.  Sir James Milne, the General Manager, reportedly looked at the diagram and said some words to the effect that on this day and age you cannot build a locomotive with a steam dome.  According to K.J Cook (who was of course Hawksworth's successor) he believed that Hawksworth didn't argue the case for continuing the older design and Cook suggests that it might even have suited Hawksworth to modify things and produce a new design using the Standard No.10 boiler - which in turn appeared as the 94XX.  Hawksworth was also definitely in favour of using a drumhead smokebox which again suggests why he might not have been keen to fight for more 8750s.  But on the other side of the coin it resulted in the 94XX having a wider cab than the al the 57XX variants which made it an unpopular design for shunting and awkward for shorter Drivers to reach the controls while looking out.  One of the Drivers on our branch was quite short in stature and whenever he had the 94XX which frequently appeared he had to stand on an organge box in order to do his job properly - I think he was quite glad when the DMUs arrived.

 

Having got that far it was no doubt seen as a logical step to follow on using that boiler in the  far more radical 15XX heavy shunting design - the heaviest design of 0-6-0T ever built by the GWR.  Alas it too shared the 94XX problem of a wide cab which made it a bit unpopular for shunting although they survived in that role for their whole lives at one or two depots but they were inevitably best known for their use on Paddington ECS workings where their power was no doubt appreciated on the heaviest trains.  In fact six of them went new to Old Oak Common in 1949 but by 1951 two of those had been transferred away however Old Oak always had the largest single allocation of the class and it was effectively their final depot until they were ultimately displaced by dieselisation .  The also had a very short wheelbase which made them ideal for shunting on tight curvature and probably explains the early transfer of one of the class to Southall which served a location with a very sharply curved siding.