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Models that nearly made it!


MGR Hooper!
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17 hours ago, 34theletterbetweenB&D said:

I well recall my one N gauge modelling friend very disappointed when Bachmann dropped their N gauge 9F because Dapol beat them to market; and this then proved to be a heavily compromised model which really didn't look right. (Bach also dropped a 'Voyager' for the same reason, but no idea how that came out.)

 

Bachmann did have plans for a 9F, but nothing was ever seen of it - no CAD and certainly no pre-production models. The Dapol one isn't too bad - it's closer in shape to a 9F than the old Minitrix model. The biggest complaint was the derailing pony wheel (fixed on later releases), and its lack of hauling power compared to the Minitrix model.

 

We've had class 220 Voyagers from both Bachmann and Dapol. Dapol also did the class 221 Super Voyager. Bachmann did have plans for a class 222 Meridian but dropped it, I understand because of disappointing sales on the 220.

 

Steven B.

 

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2 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

Wasn't the Snowdon Mountain Railway locomotive mock up a Matchbox or similar diecast toy?

 

The real ones are 0-4-2Ts rather than 0-4-0Ts.

 

 

I remember having one of the toys in the 1970s.

 

 

 

Jason


no it was an 0-4-0 probably a Nellie chassis . 

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No idea about them. I just remember there was a range of diecast models years ago which used to be sold at preserved railways. Probably about three or so inches long.

 

Better than those TTTE ones, but not quite scale models. I'm thinking about late 1970s. They came in little boxes like the Matchbox cars, but I don't think they were Matchbox.

 

I have a memory that one of these was mocked up as a proper model. But can't remember where I saw it though.

 

 

Jason

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On the NG front Roco waved a Double Fairlie in OO9 at the UK trade at the German Toy Fair 2007 or 2008. This didn't go ahead, very explicitly explained at the time as 'insufficient trade interest'.

 

17 hours ago, Steven B said:

... The Dapol  9F  isn't too bad - it's closer in shape to a 9F than the old Minitrix model. The biggest complaint was the derailing pony wheel (fixed on later releases), and its lack of hauling power compared to the Minitrix model...

However, George was expecting 'really rather good': a model that represented the prototype as well as was achieved by the Bachmann OO versions. The width over the cylinders alone pretty much sank its chances on appearance grounds, and the problems associated with the drive arrangement dissuaded him from thoughts of fixing the various shortcomings by DIY. (He had known from announcement that he would have to provide the BR1F tender top by DIY, that Dapol didn't include in this release. Why not cover the most common - and usefully in the context of this model's mechanism plan - most capacious tender type?) 

 

He has the WD from Farish, and still hopes that one day Bach might revive the plan for a 9F in their Farish range, to that standard.

 

 

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29 minutes ago, 34theletterbetweenB&D said:

On the NG front Roco waved a Double Fairlie in OO9 at the UK trade at the German Toy Fair 2007 or 2008. This didn't go ahead, very explicitly explained at the time as 'insufficient trade interest'.

 

I remember this being covered in 009 News at the time (which in itself suggests it was a year or two later than that, perhaps around 2009-10, as  I didn’t join the Society until the very end of 2008). Some of the commentary there suggested that the choice of a rather unusual (if well-known) prototype was somewhat surprising for a first attempt at producing and marketing an RTR 009 loco, although I think it was at least confirmed that 4mm scale rather than H0e would have been used. Strangely, despite the more recent growth in RTR 009 and Roco’s previous and ongoing H0e expertise I’m not aware that they’ve looked at the British 009 market again. I can’t remember how far they got with the Fairlie.

 

I think lack of trade interest was mentioned in the News at the time as well, and I wonder whether the success of the Bachmann and Heljan 009 items is partially because these manufacturers are more familiar to most mainstream British model railway retailers, while Roco has not really been involved in the British-outline market before.

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I understand there was also a plan by Lilliput in the 1970s to produce RTR models of the W&LLR Beyer Peacocks, but these would have been H0e rather than 009. However, H0e is possibly an appropriate choice in this case given that the line is 2’ 6” gauge and features a lot of continental stock, some of which is already produced by Lilliput and others in H0e. I’d love to see more details of this proposal.

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Just a little earlier than that. There's a photo of the proposed model in mock-up form with two Zillertalbahn coaches in the May 1969 Railway Modeller in the News Special section, p.156. The text was in the previous issue "The big news in narrow gauge is that a Welshpool & Llanfair 0-6-0T is scheduled for delivery in 1969."

 

Part of the problem with the Roco Double Fairlie was that there are no two identical FR Double Fairlies. Admittedly they are all superficially similar ('The Square' aside) but with all kinds of difference in tank length, cab openings, etc.

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53 minutes ago, BernardTPM said:

Part of the problem with the Roco Double Fairlie was that there are no two identical FR Double Fairlies. Admittedly they are all superficially similar ('The Square' aside) but with all kinds of difference in tank length, cab openings, etc.

 

Exactly, and thus the criticism levelled at Roco at the time that they hadn’t given enough detail about the specification, predicted price, which loco was to be modelled etc. The extremely specific prototype is perhaps less of an issue given that Heljan seems to have subsequently managed OK with its L&B locos although I notice Bachmann has chosen firstly the Baldwin and then quarry Hunslet, both useful in a relatively wide range of prototype contexts.

 

Good to know about the Lilliput loco - do you know at what point it was withdrawn/cancelled? Also, do they confirm in the Modeller that it was to have been 3.5mm scale?

 

On the subject of Lilliput, there U class model is now well-known but there was at one point to have been an Eggerbahn model of a similar loco (but I think a slightly different variant of the prototype). I can’t find any links for this but it was covered in one of Brian Meldon’s Eggerbahn history articles in 009 News.

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Now one announced. I presume it will be Merddin Emrys and whatever ones were similar. Livingston Thompson?

 

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/146262-katopeco-announce-fr-locos-in-009-confirmed/

 

Looking at the 3D print it's one with a taper boiler. So ruling out the very early ones.

 

https://www.hattons.co.uk/newsdetail.aspx?id=566

 

 

Jason

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5 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

Now one announced. I presume it will be Merddin Emrys and whatever ones were similar. Livingston Thompson?

 

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/146262-katopeco-announce-fr-locos-in-009-confirmed/

 

Looking at the 3D print it's one with a taper boiler. So ruling out the very early ones.

 

https://www.hattons.co.uk/newsdetail.aspx?id=566

 

 

Jason

 

Although of course this is a totally different project to the Roco one. The plan in this case to start with the smaller England locos may be a good idea and of course the 009 RTR market has massively grown in the intervening decade.

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1 hour ago, 009 micro modeller said:

Good to know about the Lilliput loco - do you know at what point it was withdrawn/cancelled? Also, do they confirm in the Modeller that it was to have been 3.5mm scale?

No, that was the last heard of it. It doesn't mention scale; I gave the complete quite revelant to the loco. They are pretty chunky locos in real life so I don't think they would have too much trouble in fitting a small motor of the period into it even in H0.

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4 hours ago, 009 micro modeller said:

 

Although of course this is a totally different project to the Roco one. The plan in this case to start with the smaller England locos may be a good idea and of course the 009 RTR market has massively grown in the intervening decade.

I suspect that in the past 13 years higher loco prices have become normalised/accepted and the minimum viable production run size required is much smaller, plus rtr rolling stock is now available to match it.

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The strangest example I can think of is the HO British D800 Warship by either Fleischman or Marklin, it was the first of an attempt by a German manufacturer to offer British outline in 3.5mm Ho  and not 4MM. The announcement  in the 1980s included coaching stock and a future steam locomotive

A batch of HO Warships  went on sale about 10 years ago, probably 30 years after the range was announced in the model railway press.

The Signal Box in Rochester had a quantity to sell.

The Warship was NOS ( new-old-stock) as if they had been lost  in a warehouse for many years and forgotten about, their release to the retailer coincided with some difficult times in the trade in Germany.

Had those Warships really been manufactured in the 1980s, only  to be sidelined in a warehouse, then  discovered only  30 years later when manufacturers and importers were dipping deep into the barrel for cash?

Is anyone on the thread an owner of  one of these Ho warships?

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7 hours ago, brack said:

I suspect that in the past 13 years higher loco prices have become normalised/accepted and the minimum viable production run size required is much smaller, plus rtr rolling stock is now available to match it.

 

Although I think the price of the Kato/Peco Fairlie is still expected to be lower than the Roco one, while the smaller locos will fit in on more layouts. I think at the time it wasn’t just the high price but the lack of clarity from Roco about what the price might be (as well as other details) at the point when they wanted buyers to commit to it. In 009 the idea of modern, high-quality RTR did not even exist when Roco announced their Fairlie, although I’m slightly surprised that the quality of their H0e locos already owned by potential Fairlie buyers didn’t encourage people to sign up.

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19 minutes ago, Pandora said:

The strangest example I can think of is the HO British D800 Warship by either Fleischman or Marklin, it was the first of an attempt by a German manufacturer to offer British outline in 3.5mm Ho  and not 4MM. The announcement  in the 1980s included coaching stock and a future steam locomotive

A batch of HO Warships  went on sale about 10 years ago, probably 30 years after the range was announced in the model railway press.

The Signal Box in Rochester had a quantity to sell.

The Warship was NOS ( new-old-stock) as if they had been lost  in a warehouse for many years and forgotten about, their release to the retailer coincided with some difficult times in the trade in Germany.

Had those Warships really been manufactured in the 1980s, only  to be sidelined in a warehouse, then  discovered only  30 years later when manufacturers and importers were dipping deep into the barrel for cash?

Is anyone on the thread an owner of  one of these Ho warships?

 

Yes, I have one bought recently (well, within the last 12 months) from ebay.  It is a Fleischmann, they also produced a rake of southern region Mk1s to go with it.  They are good models, but being H0, they only managed to sell a few in the UK.

 

The sequence of events is pretty much how you describe it, there was some sort of reorganisation at Fleischmann (takeover possibly? can't remember) that meant a stock check in the warehouse found the remaining stock of these.  there was only one batch ever made AFAIK.

 

The one that didn't make it from Fleischmann was a Battle of Britain/West Country in H0.  Had the Warship sold in the UK, the BoB/WC would have been their next H0 loco.

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1 hour ago, Moxy said:

 

Yes, I have one bought recently (well, within the last 12 months) from ebay.  It is a Fleischmann, they also produced a rake of southern region Mk1s to go with it.  They are good models, but being H0, they only managed to sell a few in the UK.

 

The one that didn't make it from Fleischmann was a Battle of Britain/West Country in H0.  Had the Warship sold in the UK, the BoB/WC would have been their next H0 loco.

The coaches Fleischmann produced were actually Southern Bulleid stock.

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3 hours ago, Pandora said:

The strangest example I can think of is the HO British D800 Warship by either Fleischman or Marklin, it was the first of an attempt by a German manufacturer to offer British outline in 3.5mm Ho  and not 4MM.

Both Marklin and Fleischmann made models of the Warship, though the Fleischmann is later and closer to scale. The Marklin model was introduced in 1967 (under the Hamo brand for 2-rail) but although H0 length it was 00 (and a bit) wide and nearly 00 tall. No rolling stock was made to go with it. I don't know if any was planned.

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1 hour ago, BernardTPM said:

Both Marklin and Fleischmann made models of the Warship, though the Fleischmann is later and closer to scale. The Marklin model was introduced in 1967 (under the Hamo brand for 2-rail) but although H0 length it was 00 (and a bit) wide and nearly 00 tall. No rolling stock was made to go with it. I don't know if any was planned.

As I recall the Marklin model Warship was simply their DB V200 repainted in BR livery. This accounts for the length being HO, the larger German loading gauge resulting in the HO dimensions matching the smaller British OO equivalent. DB Height 4.16 m scaling to 48mm in HO,  matching the 12' height of a Warship, and a width of around 3.05 metres being 35 mm at HO, a Warship being 8ft 8in wide.

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3 hours ago, Nick Holliday said:

The coaches Fleischmann produced were actually Southern Bulleid stock.

 

Thanks for the correction, I had misremembered them as Mk1s (in my defence, I don't actually own any of the coaches!)

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33 minutes ago, Moxy said:

 

Thanks for the correction, I had misremembered them as Mk1s (in my defence, I don't actually own any of the coaches!)


Some Bulleid coaches did end up away from home on the WR, ER and ScR, so almost as good as a Mk1. ;-)

By example, Fleischmann No 5147 is suitable for your new layout Moxy. :-)

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