Models that nearly made it!

[Steamport Southport]

7 hours ago, Pandora said:

The strangest example I can think of is the HO British D800 Warship by either Fleischman or Marklin, it was the first of an attempt by a German manufacturer to offer British outline in 3.5mm Ho  and not 4MM. The announcement  in the 1980s included coaching stock and a future steam locomotive

A batch of HO Warships  went on sale about 10 years ago, probably 30 years after the range was announced in the model railway press.

The Signal Box in Rochester had a quantity to sell.

The Warship was NOS ( new-old-stock) as if they had been lost  in a warehouse for many years and forgotten about, their release to the retailer coincided with some difficult times in the trade in Germany.

Had those Warships really been manufactured in the 1980s, only  to be sidelined in a warehouse, then  discovered only  30 years later when manufacturers and importers were dipping deep into the barrel for cash?

Is anyone on the thread an owner of  one of these Ho warships?

 

Even more bizarre was the Rivarossi Royal Scot and LMS coaches.

 

I think they were planning a full range of models as well.

 

http://www.rivarossi-memory.it/english_version/Riva_Other_Locos/GB_Vapo_Royal_Scot_Eng.htm

 

 

[BernardTPM]

On 15/09/2020 at 11:57, Nick Holliday said:

As I recall the Marklin model Warship was simply their DB V200 repainted in BR livery. This accounts for the length being HO, the larger German loading gauge resulting in the HO dimensions matching the smaller British OO equivalent. DB Height 4.16 m scaling to 48mm in HO,  matching the 12' height of a Warship, and a width of around 3.05 metres being 35 mm at HO, a Warship being 8ft 8in wide.

No, the body at least was new and very clearly a Warship. I suspect though it was like the Minitrix Warship - new body on an existing chassis and lower section. The dimension seem to fit too.

Edited November 24, 2021 by BernardTPM

[The Johnster]

8 hours ago, Pandora said:

The strangest example I can think of is the HO British D800 Warship by either Fleischman or Marklin, it was the first of an attempt by a German manufacturer to offer British outline in 3.5mm Ho  and not 4MM. The announcement  in the 1980s included coaching stock

IIRC, the coaches (not sure if any were ever actually made) were to be Bulleid in BR malachite green livery; the train could have represented a mid-60s west country express out of Waterloo, and of course the coaches would have matched the H0 Lima 33.  Not that strange if you look at it from a German point of view considering the relationship between their V200 and the Warships.  At least they didn't name it 'Bismark'...

 

The steam loco was to be an unrebuilt spam can, I think, and I don't recall any other stock being offered.

 

Within a fairly short period there were Lima, Fleischmann/Marklin (I can't remember which now, either), and Rivarvossi attempts at UK outline HO.  I thought at the time that an opportunity had been missed, and that more might have come of it had the Lima stuff been followed up, and a starter set with an 0-6-0 and a choice of goods or suburban coaches marketed instead of the Royal Scot set, lovely though it was, or the Warship/Bullieds.  A decent 08, LNW coal tank, D82xx or 54xx/auto combination or something like them, would have cleaned up in the 80s, and look at the later success of 3rd rail EMU's and industrials...

 

This was I would say the last opportunity to introduce Brit outline H0 volume produced RTR successfully; nowadays we have very good 00 models and have all invested far too deeply in 00 to consider it now, but in 1980 the 'new look' RTR world was just getting under way to challenge Hornby's domination and poor quality.  LIma and Airfix failed through outside influences not connected with model railways in the event, and Mainline, the one I thought most likely to succeed, failed on reliability issues, and we were very lucky that Hornby, Dapol, and Replica took up the slack in the way they did, the latter two also ultimately unsuccessfully.  Bachmann seems to have understood what we wanted best, and Hornby have belatedly risen to the challenge, with Heljan and others entering the fray, but 'what if' speculation about Brit H0 might have us with models as good as the ones we've got now, Hornby still plugging away with 00 trainsets, and the right track gauge!

[Steamport Southport]

The Rivarossi set was marketed as a "premium" model though. It was very expensive.

 

It wasn't aimed at the train set market. Those coaches weren't bettered until the modern era. They were light years ahead of anything produced RTR at the time. Much finer than anything Mainline or Airfix managed.

 

Fully panelled LMS coaches with a proper paint job. We don't even have that now.

 

 

Jason

[Butler Henderson]

Those Rivarossi models were also neither HO or OO being IIRC 3.8mm scale

[Moxy]

1 hour ago, The Johnster said:

IIRC, the coaches (not sure if any were ever actually made) were to be Bulleid in BR malachite green livery; the train could have represented a mid-60s west country express out of Waterloo, and of course the coaches would have matched the H0 Lima 33. 

 

Yes, there were some Bulleid coaches made by Fleischmann, I think in BR green rather than malachite.

 

31 minutes ago, Butler Henderson said:

Those Rivarossi models were also neither HO or OO being IIRC 3.8mm scale

 

Unfortunately they were to that rather odd in-between scale, I think they were 1:80 scale.  British Trix/Liliput also used that scale for their Western loco & their coaches.

[Steamport Southport]

23 minutes ago, Butler Henderson said:

Those Rivarossi models were also neither HO or OO being IIRC 3.8mm scale

 

I think it was something like 1:80 scale.

 

Just a pity they never made them to proper 00. Taking the old "00/H0 Scale" beloved of plastic kit manufacturers literally.

 

 

 

[009 micro modeller]

1 hour ago, The Johnster said:

This was I would say the last opportunity to introduce Brit outline H0 volume produced RTR successfully

 

Getting slightly off-topic, but there was possibly a later opportunity to introduce RTR H0 for modern image British prototypes when a few manufacturers produced Eurostar class 373 sets in H0, and I recall a couple of articles/editorials after HS1 opened to St. Pancras suggesting that the prototype’s new link to the continental network could create problems with the use of a different scale for British-outline modelling (ignoring that the Night Ferry etc. and original CTRL had perhaps already presented similar dilemmas, albeit in a smaller way). However, scales divided by era rather than (as currently) location would probably be even more confusing, although some Australian railway modelling seems to involve something similar (although related also to the age of the model itself), possibly due to the former influence of British manufacturers and the current adoption of H0 because of the larger prototypes and similar stock seen elsewhere in the world.

[009 micro modeller]

50 minutes ago, Moxy said:

Unfortunately they were to that rather odd in-between scale, I think they were 1:80 scale.  British Trix/Liliput also used that scale for their Western loco & their coaches.

 

I knew some Trix wagons used 1:80 but wasn’t aware that the others did. A quick calculation suggests the accurate standard gauge track gauge in this scale would still need to be around 18mm...

[Butler Henderson]

I know Limas HO range failed but have always wondered if Airfix and Palitoy  (Mainline) had done HO instead of OO whether things might have turned out differently. The Rivarossi not HO not OO was said to be due to difficulties in providing outside motion on a HO model which never quite made sense to me given small HO locos that exist.

[Andy Kirkham]

I recall in about 1970 a preview in one of the magazines for an N gauge GWR 61XX made of nylon and produced by a company called Jamie Micro Traction. I never subsequently heard anything more about it.

[railroadbill]

 

 

The Fleischmann  Warship came up a few posts ago. just as a matter of interest, here are pages from the 1996/97 catalogue showing the locos and coaches.  Don't know if all of it actually got released.

[railroadbill]

 

And the Bulleid  coaches.

[caradoc]

15 hours ago, Butler Henderson said:

I know Limas HO range failed but have always wondered if Airfix and Palitoy  (Mainline) had done HO instead of OO whether things might have turned out differently.

 

For me, that was the last great opportunity to do away with OO; Mainline and Airfix were already, considering the range we had at the time (eg for modern image, Class 37 with Class 31 bogies and Class 47 with moulded lines along the sides) a breath of fresh air, how much better if they had decided to go for HO !

 

[Joseph_Pestell]

The coaches and the green Warship certainly appeared. I don't recall seeing a blue one.

 

I think that they look better in maroon.

[Moxy]

15 minutes ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

The coaches and the green Warship certainly appeared. I don't recall seeing a blue one.

 

 

There's a couple of blue one's on Ebay now, should anyone be interested.

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Fleischmann-HO-4247-D818-diesel-locomotive-MJC/143707797943?hash=item2175a6f9b7:g:GfMAAOSwl5hfSWXl

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

20 hours ago, Butler Henderson said:

...The Rivarossi not HO not OO was said to be due to difficulties in providing outside motion on a HO model which never quite made sense to me given small HO locos that exist.

It was a combination of three factors:

The UK prototype is - in round numbers - a foot narrower than Berne gauge European stock.

UK steam is dominated by designs with some or all wheels inside close fitting splashers.

The European HO manufacturers had won acceptance of vari-scale, which never caught on in the UK.

 

So here's how it goes: an OO model is 36mm maximum width, a true scale HO Berne gauge model 35mm wide, a true scale HO UK model 31.5mm wide. The RTR HO technique of the time to pack in outside cylinders and Walschaerts valve gear was just not quite adequate for true scale UK HO.

 

Then there are the splashers, to fit over the somewhat wider RTR wheels of the time. The outside faces of the splashers finish up at the same dimension for both OO and HO, both overscale for width,  but more readily seen in HO.

 

The experienced HO manufacturer's solution, apply vari-scale around the running gear to win the required width.

This is happily accepted in mainland Europe, the UK will be fine with it. Let the record show we weren't, use near 4mm scale in footplate width of necessity, and the disproportion with 3.5mm scale elements is obvious.

 

In the years since, improvement in RTR technique has got to the point where true scale RTR HO UK steam is now in reach, a slightly finer wheel standard would do it, RP25/80 or thereabouts.

[tomparryharry]

On 11/09/2020 at 14:39, Colin_McLeod said:

Do DJM examples count for this thread?

 

I think we need an 'ouch' button for this thread....

[D9020 Nimbus]

Remember that, until the last 20 years or so, several Fleischmann products for their home market were to 1:82 scale, not 1:87. Also most European locos don't have splashers. 
 

By contrast, Kleinbahn were under scale at 1:93. Also, Roco managed an HO scale UK-style diesel shunter in the form of the NS500/600 class.

[009 micro modeller]

1 hour ago, D9020 Nimbus said:

By contrast, Kleinbahn were under scale at 1:93.

 

Was there a point to this? I have similarly heard it suggested that some Japanese H0 is more like 1:90...

[eldomtom2]

I thought Japan used 1/80 scale for their HO gauge models, because Japan uses 3ft 6in track?

[009 micro modeller]

1 hour ago, eldomtom2 said:

I thought Japan used 1/80 scale for their HO gauge models, because Japan uses 3ft 6in track?

 

Possibly, although that still doesn’t make it particularly accurate; the same is true of the 1:150 used for Japanese N when modelling 3ft 6in prototypes (1:160 used for standard gauge high speed lines). The one that particularly confuses me is T gauge, which was developed in Japan and where you’d think they’d want the largest scale possible, yet it still scales to around standard gauge (1350mm in 1:450 scale, or about 4ft 5in - I don’t think the EMUs represented are of standard or 4ft 6in gauge prototypes). 1:90 may have been in reference to Japanese H0e.

[steve22]

On 11/09/2020 at 14:49, Fat Controller said:

And the Brush Type from them, and I believe also some Mk 2 coaches (Pullmans?).

 

The Freightliner wagon and the Brush Type 4 were the first thing that came into my mind.  I still think about them even now, wondering what the models if produced would have looked like.   A bit off-topic - when I worked in a model shop I was fooled by a customer who brought in something he had created - a Lima 09 with a slave unit (Class 13?)  But he craftily put it in a Mainline loco box and for a brief moment I was totally convinced of some sort of completely unannounced collaboration between Lima and Palitoy.    

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

11 hours ago, steve22 said:

The Freightliner wagon and the Brush Type 4 were the first thing that came into my mind.  I still think about them even now, wondering what the models if produced would have looked like...

They could and should have looked good, as in HO scale with correct exterior dimensions. There is no problem with post-steam UK HO, our RTR is only made in OO because of the legacy of what was necessary for RTR steam traction models.

On ‎15‎/‎09‎/‎2020 at 17:58, 009 micro modeller said:

... there was possibly a later opportunity to introduce RTR H0 for modern image British prototypes when a few manufacturers produced Eurostar class 373 sets in H0, and I recall a couple of articles/editorials after HS1 opened to St. Pancras suggesting that the prototype’s new link to the continental network could create problems with the use of a different scale for British-outline modelling...

Had there been a manufacturer wanting to break in to the UK RTR market with deep enough pockets to push it, I reckon the opening of the fixed link was the last clear opportunity to standardise HO for UK post-steam models. Had that happened, then steam would have necessarily stayed with OO at that time.

 

And on the back of that, by now UK steam models would be increasingly available in HO too, as RTR mechanism production technique has advanced significantly over the past 30 years. A finer wheel profile (already applied on some OO RTR without raising complaints of running problems) with width over wheelfaces of 18mm yields 6.75mm each side for accommodating Walschaerts gear and lateral translation, and the splashers not hideously over scale width.

 

But, 'twas not to be...

[BernardTPM]

6 hours ago, 34theletterbetweenB&D said:

They could and should have looked good, as in HO scale with correct exterior dimensions.

Though being Trix they would have probably been in either 1:80 or 1:76 by then (like their Flying Scotsman and A4 models).