Best Class 47 model to use for EM conversion

[BetweenTheTunnels]

Hello,

My first post on rmWeb, although I have been reading the site for fair time and enjoy following a few layouts on here. I have decided to create a small 'works' style layout, based around 1988-1990, while I get to grips with building EM gauge track and converting locos.   While coming to this with a reasonable background in model railways, I have no stock in hand, with the exception of an older Class 56 model that a friend gave me to practise weathering, but that looks like it needs additional work, including a motor change, to be operational.

 

Therefore, I am looking at adapting and detailing a Class 47 model first off, to become one of the Generators - probably 47402 Gateshead.  My intention is to convert it to EM, detail the buffer beams, change the couplings and deal with any bodyside detailing needed to make a reasonably accurate representation.  As this is a new field, can anyone advise which is the best '47' model - Hornby, Bachmann or Heljan - I appreciate there is much personal opinion, but any thoughts would be welcome.  Also, can anyone suggest which is the best way to change to EM gauge - I suspect Gibson wheels a good option?

 

Any thoughts, comments, advice is appreciated.

 

Richie

 

EDIT: I should have perhaps added that my initial thought from looking around is to adapt the Bachmann 32-807 model of 47435.

Edited September 12, 2020 by Rochdale Road
Added model reference

[Roy Langridge]

If you are going EM, surely Bachmann is the only choice at the moment? Heljan is still the old ‘wide’ model and the Hornby one just  an update of the old Lima tooling. Bachmann, whilst not perfect, is the better option today. 
 

Roy

Edited September 12, 2020 by Roy Langridge

[BetweenTheTunnels]

Thanks Roy,

I didn't know about the Heljan one being 'wide' (I presume you mean its not scale width?) and had not realised that Hornby were using the old Lima tooling.

 

Thats part of what I wanted to know, so thanks.

 

Cheers

Richie

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

 

4 hours ago, Rochdale Road said:

Also, can anyone suggest which is the best way to change to EM gauge - I suspect Gibson wheels a good option?...

With much twin bogie traction, the axle seating is deep enough to permit 'bumping out' the wheelsets 0.85mm each side , then packing behind to restrict sideplay sufficiently to keep the axle gear well meshed with the idler driving it.

 

A neat feature of the Bachmann mechanism is that the body can be lowered relative to the bogies for closer to scale spacing, as the cast block simply rides on top of the bogie pivot which needs nothing more sophisticated than a craft knife to modify. How far you may go with this will depend on the minimum curve radius the model is to negotiate.

[BetweenTheTunnels]

1 hour ago, 34theletterbetweenB&D said:

With much twin bogie traction, the axle seating is deep enough to permit 'bumping out' the wheelsets 0.85mm each side , then packing behind to restrict sideplay sufficiently to keep the axle gear well meshed with the idler driving it.

 

A neat feature of the Bachmann mechanism is that the body can be lowered relative to the bogies for closer to scale spacing, as the cast block simply rides on top of the bogie pivot which needs nothing more sophisticated than a craft knife to modify. How far you may go with this will depend on the minimum curve radius the model is to negotiate.

 

Sorry, this might be me being a bit thick but I don't quiet understand your first paragraph? I am assuming you mean pulling the existing wheelsets out to EM gauge?  But if that is done, would the axle move about sufficiently to need packing?

 

I will admit I didn't know about the ability to lower the body. I've heard of this being done on N gauge locos, but not picked it up on OO.  On the eventual big layout, that I will be accumulating stock for, I am aiming for 48-54 inch radius curves, as I'll have just over 10' width to play with so I don't think the radius will be a big issue for me.  On the small 'works' layout the curves will be short and gradual.

 

Richie

[PenrithBeacon]

AGW does a wheels conversion for the Bachmann 47 cat no 4800/6 for all six axles

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

2 hours ago, Rochdale Road said:

... I am assuming you mean pulling the existing wheelsets out to EM gauge?  But if that is done, would the axle move about sufficiently to need packing?

That was the intention, and some packing between wheel back and the gear tower will be required to limit side to side movement. (Even in OO, since I use relatively generous radii, it is helpful to limit this sideplay on the four end wheelsets so that the bogie frames are always tangent to the curve.)

[PMP]

 

12 hours ago, PenrithBeacon said:

AGW does a wheels conversion for the Bachmann 47 cat no 4800/6 for all six axles

Out of the easily available 47’s  I’d look at the Bachmann current version, and the Heljan model which is easily available second hand. The Heljan body is a bit overwidth but not particularly noticeable unless it’s sitting next to a Bachmann version. The Heljan model is currently undergoing a new tooling so if you can wait, it might be worth holding on for the new one. It is possible to draw the wheels out on the axles (subject to there being sufficient length on the fitted axles). The best method would be using a gear puller. 
The most effective method is the wheel and axle kit from Alan Gibson as PB notes above, it’ll give you correct style and profile wheels too. Pick ups will need to be altered too and side play can be controlled using Peco 2mm fibre washers between the bogie chassis and back of the wheels. 
The best conversions available are Ultrascale, they are drop in replacements. However their very long lead times and (relatively) high prices put some modellers off.

 

Edit : The other 47 worth looking at is the ViTrains model. Not currently available except second hand. However they are brilliant runners, and if I recall correctly the Gibson set can be fitted too.

Edited September 13, 2020 by PMP

[Enterprisingwestern]

 

The EMGS has all the axles and wheels you could possibly need to easily convertert any RTR diesel assuming you're a member, and if not why not?, that is your first port of call.

As for the model to choose, Lima if you fancy a cheap toe in the water or Bachmann for accuracy.

 

Mike.

[Pandora]

19 hours ago, Roy Langridge said:

If you are going EM, surely Bachmann is the only choice at the moment? Heljan is still the old ‘wide’ model and the Hornby one just  an update of the old Lima tooling. Bachmann, whilst not perfect, is the better option today. 
 

Roy

The Hornby Railroad 47 is a chassis upgrade of the Lima 47, with a better motor bogie replacing the noisy Lima pancake motor, but be careful if you buy second hand,  early issues of the ex-Lima 47 by Hornby retained the Lima pancake system until Hornby completed their retooling of the model, 

[Roy Langridge]

1 hour ago, Pandora said:

The Hornby Railroad 47 is a chassis upgrade of the Lima 47, with a better motor bogie replacing the noisy Lima pancake motor, but be careful if you buy second hand,  early issues of the ex-Lima 47 by Hornby retained the Lima pancake system until Hornby completed their retooling of the model, 

 

Fully agree, but the body shell is not as good as the Bachmann one in my opinion. It is a Railroad model, and it shows. If somebody is going for EM, they are usually looking for greater detail.

 

Roy

[PMP]

An EM Heljan conversion. 

[Enterprisingwestern]

1 hour ago, Roy Langridge said:

If somebody is going for EM, they are usually looking for greater detail.

 

Don't you believe what the big boys tell you!

 

Mike.

[CloggyDog]

I've done 2 Bachmann 47s to EM. 

 

Cheap solution:

The first I simply shifted the wheels out on their existing axles (equally each end) such that a EM back to back was a nice tight fit. 

 

Less cheap solution:

For the second, I used 6 axles of Maygib 14mm steel coach disc wheels. File the pin-points off, remove 1 wheel and slide on the bearings and gear salvaged from the Bachmann wheelsets (taking care to get the sequence and orientation correct. I 'splined' the centre of the Maygib axle by gripping each hard in a set of narrow-nose pliers, to give the gear something to grip, though all 6 were nice tight fits anyway.)

 

Put the wheel back on, using the b2b to set the gauge correctly. You may need to ease out the pick-ups to bear on the backs of the wheels (the advantage of using the all-steel Maygib is the pick-up doesn't need to be nearly so precisely aligned as with a metal tyre/plastic inner wheel) 

 

Both locos work equally well through the C&L- and copperclad-constructed track on the 2 layouts they run on. Visually the Maygibs do look better. 

 

The Maygibs were c£2 per axle (so about £12 overall) and cheaper than Alan Gibson or Ultrascale conversion packs. 

Edited September 13, 2020 by CloggyDog

[BetweenTheTunnels]

Thanks for all the input guys, that's much appreciated.  I think my initial option at this point will be the Bachmann model.  If the current Covid situation wasn't with us, I'd probably have a trawl round some Toy & Train Fair stands and see if I could find a second hand Heljan, but as that isn't likely to be an option for the next 6-12 months, Bachmann will win!

 

I note looking at the Shawplan website there is a Lazercut flush glazing window option available for the Bachmann 47 - does anyone know if this is related to previous models or the current one? Do you the windows need upgrading or are they flush glazed from the factory.  It looks quite good already on the Bachmann website but not sure what its like in reality.

 

I think I may go down the Alan Gibson wheels for the first one, and I'll look at moving the wheel sets out on a subsequent model.

 

The aim is to model 47402 it in this condition, but I am struggling to find any pictures that show whether 402 had the woven or welded mesh on its roof fans.

 

 

Richie

[CloggyDog]

Not sure about the fan grilles, but 402 had the cantrail grilles with the single centre strut, rather than the 4 thinner extra struts (2 either side of the centre one) of the 'production' 47s

 

 

 

 

 

Requires some careful work with a chisel-blade in the xacto/scalpel handle to do. 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 13, 2020 by CloggyDog
Spelllong

[Penrhos1920]

I've got 2 converted Heljan 47s both with Branchlines wheels.  They run beatifully.  I've got a couple of 37s from Bachmann and I wish that I could put the Heljan bogies on them as the Bachmann bogies are not square.  I'e been told there is the same issue with Bachmann 47s.  I noone has mentioned Ultrascale wheels, I think these are the best for conversions, but you do have to wait and they are a bit more expensive.

[Enterprisingwestern]

 

All brush 4's had a woven grille originally and they lasted quite a while, if not permanently, but photos will confirm.

Re the glazing, if the Bachmann version is acceptable to you then stick with it, but the Laserglaze along with the etched cab window surrounds (to get rid of the over prominent rivets) does make a difference.

 

Mike.

[PMP]

The Shawplan laser glazing is tooled on the current Bachmann body. It also fits their 57. I don’t use the etched surrounds but be aware the rivets on the front cab surrounds need removing from Bachmann’s 47’s, as a hangover from the 57 tool.

A Vitrains 47 fitted with Shawplan glazing and grills/fans. If using the glazing, buy the type for the RTR brand you’re using, they are specific to brand.

 

 

Edited September 13, 2020 by PMP
Info on rivets

[BetweenTheTunnels]

Guys,

You have been terrific, many thanks for all the pointers. I think I have a plan coming together in my head now.

 

4 hours ago, CloggyDog said:

Not sure about the fan grilles, but 402 had the cantrail grilles with the single centre strut, rather than the 4 thinner extra struts (2 either side of the centre one) of the 'production' 47s. Requires some careful work with a chisel-blade in the xacto/scalpel handle to do. 

 

Cheers for that.  The different struts on the grills was one that I had missed, despite looking at several images and trying to compare them!

 

4 hours ago, Penrhos1920 said:

I've got 2 converted Heljan 47s both with Branchlines wheels.  They run beatifully.  I've got a couple of 37s from Bachmann and I wish that I could put the Heljan bogies on them as the Bachmann bogies are not square.  I'e been told there is the same issue with Bachmann 47s.  I noone has mentioned Ultrascale wheels, I think these are the best for conversions, but you do have to wait and they are a bit more expensive.

 

Ultrascale was my first thought, as I'd read good comments about them, but the website is saying five to six months at the moment, and I am looking to have this first one done well before Christmas!  So, I'm back to an AGW option I think.

 

4 hours ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

All brush 4's had a woven grille originally and they lasted quite a while, if not permanently, but photos will confirm.

Re the glazing, if the Bachmann version is acceptable to you then stick with it, but the Laserglaze along with the etched cab window surrounds (to get rid of the over prominent rivets) does make a difference.

 

Mike.

 

Thanks Mike. I have been looking, but few photos of 47402 are taken above!  I'll go for the Woven variety unless I can find any reference otherwise.

 

1 hour ago, PMP said:

The Shawplan laser glazing is tooled on the current Bachmann body. It also fits their 57. I don’t use the etched surrounds but be aware the rivets on the front cab surrounds need removing from Bachmann’s 47’s, as a hangover from the 57 tool.

 

Cheers @PMP

 

Does anyone do an etch or 3D print for the high intensity sealed beam headlight do you know? This was fitted to 402 by 1987.

 

So the plan so far is the etched Lazerglazing for the Bachmann 47, the Wovan grills (EEDP47-00A), the cab window surrounds (EEDP47-03 and EEDP47-18 - I presume both are needed for front and side?), plus DCC chip and cab/marker/tail lights option if the Bachmann ones cannot be converted, plus a couple of week warm LEDs for the cab lights.  After that it will be a repaint in to BR blue, and Realtec Transfers (4mm-C4704 (basic) and 4mm-1292(Gateshead logo) and Shawplan nameplates.

 

I think the head code panel on the Bachmann model is ok once its repainted yellow.

[johndon]

One thing to be aware of with the Bachmann 47, especially if you are using the Gibson wheels with smaller flanges than the RTR wheels is that the centre axle on each bogie can be ever so slightly lower that the outer bogies meaning that the bogies rocks about the centre axles.  With a set of P4 Ultrascale wheels, this 'rock' was enough to make my Bachmann 47 fall off even on straight track.  It can be overcome by some filing of the axle slot to make it a little taller.

 

John

[PMP]

4 hours ago, Rochdale Road said:

 

Does anyone do an etch or 3D print for the high intensity sealed beam headlight do you know? This was fitted to 402 by 1987.

 

http://www.replicarailways.co.uk/spares-and-accessories/accessories
RA105 for the headlamps 

[PenrithBeacon]

11 hours ago, johndon said:

One thing to be aware of with the Bachmann 47, especially if you are using the Gibson wheels with smaller flanges than the RTR wheels is that the centre axle on each bogie can be ever so slightly lower that the outer bogies meaning that the bogies rocks about the centre axles.  With a set of P4 Ultrascale wheels, this 'rock' was enough to make my Bachmann 47 fall off even on straight track.  It can be overcome by some filing of the axle slot to make it a little taller.

 

John

You could use these

[Roy Langridge]

Have you tried YouTube for roof detail? I often find that videos are taken from bridges. For example, this one has 47402 (as preserved):

 

For example, this one has 47402 (ok as preserved): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ge04y2t6lWQ

 

Roy

 

 

[BetweenTheTunnels]

11 hours ago, johndon said:

One thing to be aware of with the Bachmann 47, especially if you are using the Gibson wheels with smaller flanges than the RTR wheels is that the centre axle on each bogie can be ever so slightly lower that the outer bogies meaning that the bogies rocks about the centre axles.  It can be overcome by some filing of the axle slot to make it a little taller.

John

 

28 minutes ago, PenrithBeacon said:

You could use these

 

@johndon & @PenrithBeacon.  Thanks for the heads up, I'll watch out for the 'rocking' ... The Penbits bogie looks like it would probably solve that issue, and I like the springing idea. I had not come across those bogie modules before, so thanks. Something to think about there. It makes sense to do a proper job and get the running quality spot on, as well as the detailing.

 

10 hours ago, PMP said:

http://www.replicarailways.co.uk/spares-and-accessories/accessories
RA105 for the headlamps 

 

Thanks - I remember Replica Railways from being a kid, didn't realise they were still going!

 

18 minutes ago, Roy Langridge said:

Have you tried YouTube for roof detail? I often find that videos are taken from bridges. For example, this one has 47402 (as preserved):

For example, this one has 47402 (ok as preserved): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ge04y2t6lWQ

Roy

 

Cheers Roy, I never gave that one a thought. Oh dear, I can see me loosing a few hours now look back through video's of the time!

 

Richie