Mink C - now with added V12 goodness.

[Craigw]

I have posted this in a couple of other places so some of you may have seen it. The last few years I have been buying negatives on Ebay. Nothing serious and no plans, just things I like. A few weeks back this negative turned up and I was lucky enough to win it at a sensible price. While you see a few BR era negatives come up, pre nationalisation Goods wagon negs are not real common. Hence my excitement.

 

The subject in question is a Mink C from Lot 528, built in 1906-1907. The centre body side bracing has been changed and is different to all other photos I have seen. The van behind is a V33 which were built 1929 - 1933. 

 

Please do not post this photo elsewhere.

 

Regards,

 

Craig W

 

Edited October 18, 2022 by Craigw
Photo reloaded

[Miss Prism]

It's been fitted with post-1927 doors.

 

[WillCav]

Craig,

 

The ends are interesting - original flat cross bracing with top corners removed to make 'space' for the later double bonnet vents. Contrasts with the later end fitted on the V33.

 

Thanks for posting the picture. I might have to try and build this (I'm waiting for an order of Mink Ds that I can cut and shut for the ends/roof/underframe).

 

I'm guessing that the roof isn't white but is reflecting light? Shouldn't be white with post 1942 lettering.

 

Regards

 

Will

[57xx]

2 hours ago, WillCav said:

I'm guessing that the roof isn't white but is reflecting light? Shouldn't be white with post 1942 lettering.

 

Given the state of the paint on the sides I doubt very much the roof is still white and it will be reflections/over exposure making it look that way. The small 5" lettering returned from 1936 onwards.

[WillCav]

34 minutes ago, 57xx said:

 

Given the state of the paint on the sides I doubt very much the roof is still white and it will be reflections/over exposure making it look that way. The small 5" lettering returned from 1936 onwards.

I think you are right about reflections / over exposure.  I was thinking that the lettering could be smaller than 5"? Difficult to be sure. Definitely painted in the 1936 to 1948 period.

Will

[Bulwell Hall]

An excellent and interesting photo Craig and a potential subject for modelling.  I don't think the roofs - rooves? - are white.  My initial thought on first looking at the photo was that it was taken whilst it was raining.  The sides of both vehicles look wet and both have light coloured roofs which have the appearance of a wet surface reflecting the light.  Of course I could be completely wrong!

 

Any idea where the photo was taken - I would speculate that it is not on the GWR?  There appears to be an interesting supported rail joint in the foreground.

 

Gerry

[Craigw]

A new negative that I have acquired from Ebay.

 

V12 van 82464 from lot 575.  There has been some discussion of the photo in a facebook group where I posted it and the photo is thought to be post WW2 as the wagon appears to have wartime lettering.

 

Please do not distribute or post this photo elsewhere without my permission.

 

I have another two to follow on from this one when i have the time.

 

Regards,

 

Craig W

[K14]

With the eye of faith I **think** that the pad exam/oil/lifting dates end '37'

 

Any chance of a higher res scan of the solebar just above the left-hand axlebox (Ditto for the chalked inscription over the r/h box)?

[Craigw]

5 hours ago, K14 said:

With the eye of faith I **think** that the pad exam/oil/lifting dates end '37'

 

Any chance of a higher res scan of the solebar just above the left-hand axlebox (Ditto for the chalked inscription over the r/h box)?

 

I will do a san of that area and see how it goes. In the meantime, here is an X4 Meat Van. 

[simonmcp]

What date is the photograph please? I ask because of the seemingly old style of Tank wagon on the left contrasting with the (what I would have previously thought modern) electricity pylon showing above the X4 Meat Wagon.

[The Fatadder]

Another fascinating photo, interesting to see such an old tank wagon presumably in the 40s

[hmrspaul]

8 hours ago, The Fatadder said:

Another fascinating photo, interesting to see such an old tank wagon presumably in the 40s

Tanks like that survived into the mid 1960s, some later. Chemical companies and SMBP both kept their tanks for a long time. 

 

Paul

[Craigw]

10 hours ago, simonmcp said:

What date is the photograph please? I ask because of the seemingly old style of Tank wagon on the left contrasting with the (what I would have previously thought modern) electricity pylon showing above the X4 Meat Wagon.

 

I think it is taken around 1946-1947. It might be a little later

 

Regards,

 

Craig

[Craigw]

The final wagon photo for the moment, a V18 van. Photo is from late 1946-1947.

 

Regards,

 

Craig w

[K14]

On 30/10/2022 at 22:11, Craigw said:

The final wagon photo for the moment, a V18 van. Photo is from late 1946-1947.

 

Regards,

 

Craig w

May be earlier than that as the L(ift) and P(ad Exam) dates are both 9/10/45, & overall the paintwork appears to be unsullied.

The coincidental dates suggest to me a Works visit rather than an outlying depot.

 

Also:—

 

 

 

Pete S.

[Bulwell Hall]

On 30/10/2022 at 22:11, Craigw said:

The final wagon photo for the moment, a V18 van. Photo is from late 1946-1947.

 

Regards,

 

Craig w

 

I can't help thinking that this might be an example of a van painted in wartime brown. There is no way in which we can be sure, but it has been painted recently and looks lighter than if it were in the usual GW wagon grey.  But I'm probably completely wrong......

 

Gerry

[The Fatadder]

30 minutes ago, Bulwell Hall said:

 

I can't help thinking that this might be an example of a van painted in wartime brown. There is no way in which we can be sure, but it has been painted recently and looks lighter than if it were in the usual GW wagon grey.  But I'm probably completely wrong......

 

Gerry

Do you know if these were lettered with the usual white lettering or if they went for yellow on brown?

As far as I recall I have not previously read about grey stock ending up brown during the war, would love to read more about it if anything has been published.

 

[Craigw]

4 hours ago, Bulwell Hall said:

 

I can't help thinking that this might be an example of a van painted in wartime brown. There is no way in which we can be sure, but it has been painted recently and looks lighter than if it were in the usual GW wagon grey.  But I'm probably completely wrong......

 

Gerry

 

Gerry, 

 

The thought of being brown had not entered my head but I have been mulling over how light the colour is compared to the other van. I think it is an idea that is worth considering. It is in your modelling period, feel like going out on a limb?

 

Regards,

 

Craig

[kandc_au]

If it was brown, I would have thought that the van would look darker than what it is.
If the possibility is that it is a recent repaint, then the roof is darker than the wagon which to me would indicate that it isn't brown but a lighter colour.
Khris

[Bulwell Hall]

There is very little information on wartime repaints - especially relating to wagons - but there is some circumstantial evidence that this Mink could be painted brown.  I have dug deep into my files and came up with the following:

 

In the January 1945 issue of The Model Railway News R.P. Walford published the first part of an article on 'Coach Livery of the GWR 1910-1944'.  I don't know his sources for the earlier period but in the second part of the article - published in March 1945 - he goes into some detail on the changes caused by the prevailing wartime conditions.  These details are based on his own observations and give examples of actual carriages that received the wartime austerity brown livery.  He mentions that by 1942 many GWR passenger vehicles required repainting but that there were no supplies of cream paint.  He states that " By contrast, there was so much brown paint that many wagons were painted in it too, and goods brakes at any rate are still coming out in brown coats (a marked contrast to the raw, paintless efforts of the L.M.S!)". 

 

R.P. Walford was a long-standing member of the RCTS and took a particular interest in GWR rolling stock and recorded what he saw in his locality.  I believe he lived in Newton Abott, but if not, he was certainly in the South Devon area. For many years he reported on GWR rolling stock matters in the Railway Observer - the RCTS house journal - and an anonymous report of March 1942 could well have been by him viz "GWR goods rolling stock has been painted LMS brown".  I think that may be what we would now know as LMS Bauxite and if the modern-day Precision Paints version is anything to go by then it could very easily be mistaken for brown.  I would guess that as the brown was being substituted for the usual wagon grey any lettering would continue to be in white as they were not passenger rated 'brown' vehicles.  But this is all supposition on my part, and I don't have any hard information that this was how it was.

 

I do have a Parkside Mink on the bench at the moment and may well do it in brown to see how it looks - I have after all already done a Toad in brown - see below.  I hope this is of some interest.

 

Gerry 



 

Edited November 5, 2022 by Bulwell Hall

[The Fatadder]

Very interesting, I think I have a Parkside Mink in the to do pile so I think I will have a go at a brown one.    Certainly makes for something a little different.

[Cwmtwrch]

On 05/11/2022 at 15:07, Bulwell Hall said:

"GWR goods rolling stock has been painted LMS brown".  I think that may be what we would now know as LMS Bauxite

My father had a Hornby Dublo LMS brake van [which I still have] and two coal wagons bought soon after they resumed production after WW2, all of which were the darker shade carried by three of the four shown in https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/133981109124. He also had an LNER brick wagon which really was in bauxite https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/115583692773. I know they are tinplate models, but they are contemporary, so are at least suggestive that LMS brown really was brown, not bauxite.

[M.I.B]

On 04/11/2022 at 15:15, The Fatadder said:

Do you know if these were lettered with the usual white lettering or if they went for yellow on brown?

 

Looking at the photo and guessing at the contrasts, I think it is white on brown.

 

I'm seriously considering a TOAD and a MINK in "LMS Bauxite" now given my timeframe.

[The Fatadder]

A bit of work last night finishing this off 

painted in LMS wagon brown, I assumed given usual GWR practice was for the body and underframe on wagons / vans to be the same colour they would have followed the same approach when substituting brown for grey (particularly given wartime conditions).  However it looked rather odd, so I overpainted with my usual weathered underframe mix to dirty it up.  For the roof I figured no matter what the base colour, roofs seemed to weather to grey anyway so went with that.

I’ve tried to copy the markings on the real thing (those on the underframe need a wash of muck to tone them down).

edit: I’ve just spotted I’ve done this finishing on the wrong side!  Oh well…

edit edit: I should also point out that it’s on the wrong wheels, as with a fair bit of stock it’s awaiting me to get round to buying more spiked wheels…

 

I think I both like and dislike it in equal measure, it looks so wrong having GW branding on a wagon that’s not grey or white, but then it’s quite nice to have something different.

 

for contrast I’ve tried a B&W filter next to a gunpowder van that was close to hand

Edited November 10, 2022 by The Fatadder

[Miss Prism]

Craig W's V18 pic above, if it is in brown, has the solebar the same colour as the body, and the bits below the solebar in black.