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Electrofrog Point Stalling


JC
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4 minutes ago, Gilbert said:

Can you isolate the power from the "mainline" upper frog  powered rail and feed power separately to it? Just try it with a jump lead before you fix it all in place

Sorry not quite sure what you mean? 

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I wondered if the electrofrog on the mainline was messing up the track beyond leading to your troublesome point and by trying with  a gap and a separate power feed on the "lefthand" rail heading to the troublesome point may help?

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9 minutes ago, Gilbert said:

I wondered if the electrofrog on the mainline was messing up the track beyond leading to your troublesome point and by trying with  a gap and a separate power feed on the "lefthand" rail heading to the troublesome point may help?

I see, yes it's worth a try. Thing is there is power to the track beyond the mainline EF leading to the troublesome point...that's what's confusing me.

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OK two developments. I swapped in the EF that I know works (from the siding on the left hand side of the layout) and that works!! Which now indicates that the point was faulty. I have also run a multimeter on the faulty points and there is no continuity across the tiny gaps in the rails leading into the frog vee whereas there is on the points that work. I don't know if you can see the photos I attached clearly enough, but on visual inspection I can see no difference between the faulty points and the points that work (the pics are just of a faulty point).

 

The EF points I am using are brand new and I bought 5 of them. Having now tested them, 3 of those do not work because there is no continuity. If that's down to faulty manufacture then surely that's unacceptable....or is that the norm (it shouldn't be surely)?

 

Which leaves me with 3 duff points. What is the solution to this? Any suggestions gratefully received.  I wondered if the modification shown at 8:26 into this video might be the answer?

 

 

DSC_0236.JPG

DSC_0237.JPG

Edited by JC
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11 hours ago, smokebox said:

The upper wire link in the middle image looks suspect to me.  Is it connected solidly?  The left end of it looks as if the weld isn't quite right.

Do you mean where I've circled in red?

DSC_0236_LI.jpg

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14 hours ago, JC said:

. Having now tested them, 3 of those do not work because there is no continuity.

If there is no continuity, they are faulty and that leads to 2 options. Return and request replacements or at your own risk, try to restore connectivity by soldering a bridge wire in place. As soon as you go near them with a soldering iron though, that's the warranty fininshed. 

 

Never experienced that sort of problem but have not bought any recently. Guess it may be a batch related issue if you have 3/5 failed.

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8 minutes ago, JimFin said:

If there is no continuity, they are faulty and that leads to 2 options. Return and request replacements or at your own risk, try to restore connectivity by soldering a bridge wire in place. As soon as you go near them with a soldering iron though, that's the warranty fininshed. 

 

Never experienced that sort of problem but have not bought any recently. Guess it may be a batch related issue if you have 3/5 failed.

Yeah those were my thoughts exactly. That's why I wondered if the modification done in that video would resolve this issue? I think I could do that, but don't want to invalidate returning them if it won't. At the end of the day points are not cheap.

 

It is very frustrating as a beginner in the hobby.

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47 minutes ago, JC said:

don't want to invalidate returning them if it won't

 

See this thread: there does seem to be a batch of bad electrofrog points out there at the moment.  As they are brand new my inclination would be to send them back for refund/replacement rather than attempt a repair myself.  (Since they are faulty, you should be reimbursed the return postage - some retailers will provide a return label with return postage already paid.)  However, you may feel it worth having a go.

 

I wonder whether Peco have been struggling to keep up with demand recently?  I know from personal experience that new OO Streamline points became very difficult to find during full lockdown; perhaps they've let a few duds through while trying to build stocks up again?

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3 hours ago, ejstubbs said:

 

See this thread: there does seem to be a batch of bad electrofrog points out there at the moment.  As they are brand new my inclination would be to send them back for refund/replacement rather than attempt a repair myself.  (Since they are faulty, you should be reimbursed the return postage - some retailers will provide a return label with return postage already paid.)  However, you may feel it worth having a go.

 

I wonder whether Peco have been struggling to keep up with demand recently?  I know from personal experience that new OO Streamline points became very difficult to find during full lockdown; perhaps they've let a few duds through while trying to build stocks up again?

Having spoken to the shop (Roxley Models, extremely helpful) they've said that the modification shown in the video should work and if it doesn't they'll take the points back anyway for exchange/refund.

 

Can't say fairer than that even though the whole thing is frustrating.

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20 hours ago, JC said:

I wondered if the modification shown at 8:26 into this video might be the answer?

 

If you mean soldering jumper wires between the stock rails and the switch rails, as the fellow is pointing to here:

 

557590145_Screenshot2020-09-16at14_16_44.png.6e1134c42bc0a294d02b421661443d03.png

 

then no, that won't solve your problem because the electrical discontinuity is beyond there, at the rail gap to the left of where he's pointing.

 

If, on the other hand, you mean going the whole hog and switching the frog using the dropper wire provided by Peco (making sure that the factory-fitted jumper wires are cut/removed, as it says in the video) then that would indeed solve your problem - but it would seem an unnecessarily complicated way to do it, requiring an external switch and additional wiring to energise the frog, when all that's required to bring your point in to the state in which it should have left the factory is to bond the factory-fitted jumper wire properly across the rail gap.  A drop of solder should fix it.

 

That said, there are those who will advocate strongly in favour of frog-switching anyway, as being a more robust and reliable way to deploy and use electrofrog points over the long term.  But, as your experience with the other electrofrog point on your layout that is working has shown, that is not necessary to make the thing work.  Just rectifying the suspected manufacturing defect identified by smokebox above should be sufficient - as confirmed by Johnster's post in the thread I linked above:

 

 

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8 minutes ago, ejstubbs said:

 

If you mean soldering jumper wires between the stock rails and the switch rails, as the fellow is pointing to here:

 

557590145_Screenshot2020-09-16at14_16_44.png.6e1134c42bc0a294d02b421661443d03.png

 

then no, that won't solve your problem because the electrical discontinuity is beyond there, at the rail gap to the left of where he's pointing.

 

If, on the other hand, you mean going the whole hog and switching the frog using the dropper wire provided by Peco (making sure that the factory-fitted jumper wires are cut/removed, as it says in the video) then that would indeed solve your problem - but it would seem an unnecessarily complicated way to do it, requiring an external switch and additional wiring to energise the frog, when all that's required to bring your point in to the state in which it should have left the factory is to bond the factory-fitted jumper wire properly across the rail gap.  A drop of solder should fix it.

 

That said, there are those who will advocate strongly in favour of frog-switching anyway, as being a more robust and reliable way to deploy and use electrofrog points over the long term.  But, as your experience with the other electrofrog point on your layout that is working has shown, that is not necessary to make the thing work.  Just rectifying the suspected manufacturing defect identified by smokebox above should be sufficient - as confirmed by Johnster's post in the thread I linked above:

 

 

 

Your point makes perfect sense and I think I should try a drop of solder to fix the wire across the gap - however, surely if the modification shown in the video allows an EF point to work with the wire across the gap cut, then there isn't any continuity across that gap in that case anyway? And the point still functions? So surely that mod will fix the issue?

 

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45 minutes ago, JC said:

the point still functions

 

Yes, but it requires more than just fitting those jumper wires: as I said in my previous post, you also have to energise the frog externally via a switch that selects the correct polarity depending on the setting of the points.  In electrofrog points as they come from the factory (assuming they are not faulty) that is achieved by using the moving rails of the point to switch the correct polarity of current to the frog, via the factory-fitted jumper wires that bridge the rail gap.  Remove or cut those jumper wires and there's no frog polarity switching via the point rails, so you have to add an external switch and additional wiring.  That's a lot more complicated than just fixing the manufacturing fault with a single drop of solder.

 

The jumper wires in the screenshot I posted are pretty much of a red herring in respect of that manufacturing fault: they actually have nothing to do with switching the frog polarity - people fit them to avoid having to rely on electrical contact between the moving point rails and the stock rails, which can be poor if the contact areas get dirty or contaminated e.g. with loose bits of ballast.   So it's about improving the reliability of the points in long-term use rather than providing the basic functionality of the point.  If you do choose to fit those jumper wires then you must cut/remove the factory-fitted jumper wires - otherwise you will have a permanent short circuit - and you have to switch the frog polarity externally.

 

It's that palaver vs re-soldering one joint.  Your choice.  Or just take the faulty ones back and get them replaced - they have a manufacturing fault which makes them "not fit for purpose" and you have every right to reject them.  Roxley Models aren't being 'nice' about offering to take them back: they are legally obliged to make sure that you either get properly working points, or your money back.

Edited by ejstubbs
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25 minutes ago, ejstubbs said:

 

Yes, but it requires more than just fitting those jumper wires: as I said in my previous post, you also have to energise the frog externally via a switch that selects the correct polarity depending on the setting of the points.  In electrofrog points as they come from the factory (assuming they are not faulty) that is achieved by using the moving rails of the point to switch the correct polarity of current to the frog, via the factory-fitted jumper wires that bridge the rail gap.  Remove or cut those jumper wires and there's no frog polarity switching via the point rails, so you have to add an external switch and additional wiring.  That's a lot more complicated than just fixing the manufacturing fault with a single drop of solder.

 

The jumper wires in the screenshot I posted are pretty much of a red herring in respect of that manufacturing fault: they actually have nothing to do with switching the frog polarity - people fit them to avoid having to rely on electrical contact between the moving point rails and the stock rails, which can be poor if the contact areas get dirty or contaminated e.g. with loose bits of ballast.   So it's about improving the reliability of the points in long-term use rather than providing the basic functionality of the point.  If you do choose to fit those jumper wires then you must cut/remove the factory-fitted jumper wires - otherwise you will have a permanent short circuit - and you have to switch the frog polarity externally.

 

It's that palaver vs re-soldering one joint.  Your choice.  Or just take the faulty ones back and get them replaced - they have a manufacturing fault which makes them "not fit for purpose" and you have every right to reject them.  Roxley Models aren't being 'nice' about offering to take them back: they are legally obliged to make sure that you either get properly working points, or your money back.

 

Right well thank you that all makes sense. I'll try the solder and if that doesn't fix it then they'll be going back.

 

Ref the shop, yes I know the legal standpoint but what I meant was they're happy for me to modify the point and if it still doesn't work then I can send them back. I would think that 99% of the time if you modify an item, whatever it is, then the shop concerned doesn't have to replace/exchange.

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It's not just me then!  This is good in a way, as it means there is not a plot by Peco to mess me about and I don't have to take it personally or blame myself for not understanding how these things work.  If I every buy any more of them, doubtful at the moment as I have no plans to extend the layout further, I'll solder the gaps as a matter of course before attempting to install the turnout without wasting time testing them.  My new colliery spur is now installed, wired up and the isolating section switched, buried in plaster, painted, ballasted, scenickified, and is running perfectly with the little W4 traversing the frog at scale walking pace faultlessly.  

 

It was installed, apart from the hiccup, by the standard Johnster track laying method, which for your edification, delight, and possible amusement at the bodgery and amateurism, is as follows:-

 

1) lay the track and lighly pin it down, joining it to the adjoining piece with Peco joiners to ensure level and a smooth join keeping to gauge.

 

2) test run it thoroughly with all locos and stock hauling and propelling.

 

3) when this is established as 100% reliable, remove the turnout be cutting through the joiners, which were sacrificial.

 

4) replace the turnout with new joiners, and paint the sides of the rails rail colour or similar, matt.

 

5) repeat 2).

 

6) wire permanently to whatever requirement you need.  In my case I am happy to employ blade-stock rail contact, which requires occasional cleaning attention, and can be wired around later if it fails, but in 4 years of frequent operation I've had no trouble.

 

6) repeat 2)

 

7) do any ground level work, polyfilla  in this case but usually pva glue, and when the polyfilla hasn't quite gone off, the 'crusty' stage, run an old wheelset, the coarsest profile that will manage your flangeways, through the area to create flangeways for running the stock.

 

8) repeat 2), taking care to clean the railheads and the areas of contact between the blade and stock rails.

 

9) paint the ground cover.

 

10) repeat 8).

 

11) apply ballast, flock, static grass, etc, final scenic work.

 

12) repeat 8)

 

13) spray regulation pva/soapy water mix over everything

 

14) when it's dry, vacuum the surplus and repeat 8)

 

15) repeat repeat 8)

 

16) vacuum area.

 

17) repeat 15) 

 

18) operate trains.

 

19) repeat 18) at will, until will's fed up with it being repeated at him...

 

Take care to thoroughly clean out flangeways and blade contact areas to below sleeper level, even if you've wired around the blade contact, and make sure you maintain this cleaning regime anyway, or it'll build up and be harder to remove it you ignore it.  I have a set of pound shop stiff nylon bristle children's paint brushes for this which are pathetic as paint brushes but could have been purpose designed for this job.  

 

The repetition of cleaning railheads, blade contacts, and flangeways at each stage is necessary IMHO because it you are tempted to leave it to the end and do it all at once, you may not be able to clean obstructions to running or electrical contact that you have now buried in pva, polyfilla, paint, scenic material, and pva spray, or isolate running problems to deal with them.

 

 

Edited by The Johnster
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33 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

 

 

It was installed, apart from the hiccup, by the standard Johnster track laying method, which for your edification, delight, and possible amusement at the bodgery and amateurism, is as follows:-

 

1) lay the track and lighly pin it down, joining it to the adjoining piece with Peco joiners to ensure level and a smooth join keeping to gauge.

 

2) test run it thoroughly with all locos and stock hauling and propelling.

 

3) when this is established as 100% reliable, remove the turnout be cutting through the joiners, which were sacrificial.

 

 

 

The rate I'm going, it's going to be a long time before I get past stage 3. :(

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7 hours ago, ejstubbs said:

 

See this thread: there does seem to be a batch of bad electrofrog points out there at the moment.  As they are brand new my inclination would be to send them back for refund/replacement rather than attempt a repair myself.  (Since they are faulty, you should be reimbursed the return postage - some retailers will provide a return label with return postage already paid.)  However, you may feel it worth having a go.

 

I wonder whether Peco have been struggling to keep up with demand recently?  I know from personal experience that new OO Streamline points became very difficult to find during full lockdown; perhaps they've let a few duds through while trying to build stocks up again?

Well hardly. Letting the odd dud through is not good for business. Much better to sell a product and never see it again! Returns cost money.

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Peco may not as yet be fully aware of the situation (I just got on with soldering my gappable joints and didn't tell them), or what percentage of the last batch are dud yet, so we should give them a chance.  Are these made in Beer or subcontracted?  It might be some time before the extent of the problem is known and a recall organised.  Just my luck to be one of the first to find out, but the problem is resolved; a newbie taking our advice to avoid insulfrogs might be confused and frustrated, assuming it was something he was doing wrong, in fact that was my first thought, but it didn't make sense so I asked...

 

I am not insensible to the irony of using insulfrogs successfully, then buying an electrofrog for a situation in which I required a Hornby W4 Peckett to traverse a junction smoothly and slowly, then finding that the turnout in question had a dead frog big enough to completely isolate a Bachmann 8750 with half an inch to spare either end; the W4 on test traverses all of my insulfrogs without demur, incidentally!

 

Alls well that ends well even if it starts badly.

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3 hours ago, kevinlms said:

Letting the odd dud through is not good for business.

 

For the avoidance of confusion: I wasn't trying to suggest that Peco had deliberately been shipping duds simply to meet orders.  I had in mind more that pressure to meet higher than normal production volumes might have exposed some unforeseen weaknesses in their QC processes.

 

Even in the best run company such things do occasionally happen.  At least it's only model railways we're talking about, not (for example) medical equipment...

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Well, after a week of pi$$ing about thinking I don't know anything about electrics (which I don't as it goes), or about logic (better at that), or about the mystique that may surround EF wiring, I finally have 5 EF points out of 5 fully functioning. A few minutes of soldering has sorted it.

 

It turns out that wiring EF points, at least for DC, doesn't require any electric skill/knowledge. You just need points which come out of the factory that are actually built correctly.

 

Thank you for your help sorting this out :D

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For DC wiring if you are prepared to rely on blade contact, all you need to do with a faulty turnout is solder across the gap where the cuttable wire connections are, the inner' gap, and wire to the Peco instructions.  But when the Peco connections have failed, it becomes very confusing until one realises that the turnout is faulty, and as this seems to be the 'current batch' there is little point in wasting time with sending it back for replacement as you'll only get another faulty one; soldering is the answer but you'll invalidate a warranty which is effectively useless until the matter is addressed; I am not aware of any response from Peco yet.

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19 hours ago, The Johnster said:

For DC wiring if you are prepared to rely on blade contact, all you need to do with a faulty turnout is solder across the gap where the cuttable wire connections are, the inner' gap, and wire to the Peco instructions.  But when the Peco connections have failed, it becomes very confusing until one realises that the turnout is faulty, and as this seems to be the 'current batch' there is little point in wasting time with sending it back for replacement as you'll only get another faulty one; soldering is the answer but you'll invalidate a warranty which is effectively useless until the matter is addressed; I am not aware of any response from Peco yet.

 

Not quite....Roxley Models said do the solder and if it doesn't work we'll replace/refund. So for their part they were prepared to have the warranty invalidated. Perhaps it was low risk on their part as (as I now know) the solder is going to 100% fix the issue.

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20 hours ago, The Johnster said:

For DC wiring if you are prepared to rely on blade contact, all you need to do with a faulty turnout is solder across the gap where the cuttable wire connections are, the inner' gap, and wire to the Peco instructions.  But when the Peco connections have failed, it becomes very confusing until one realises that the turnout is faulty, and as this seems to be the 'current batch' there is little point in wasting time with sending it back for replacement as you'll only get another faulty one; soldering is the answer but you'll invalidate a warranty which is effectively useless until the matter is addressed; I am not aware of any response from Peco yet.

I don't see why carefully soldering will invalidate any warranty.

 

Something like a point is intended to be used on a layout. That means stuff like pushing pins through sleeper blind holes, soldering wires to it for traction purposes, ballasting it, applying paint of some sort to weather it, are normal tasks to a railway modeller.

Tasks such as any or all of the above, appear in every single issue of the Railway Modeller, indeed it is actively encouraged to do such tasks. There is NEVER any warning that following advice in the magazine, will invalidate any warranty. Railway modellers are sort of expected to do something more with it.

 

It doesn't mean that you can abuse a point, an example might be as has been seen in Railway Modeller or the web, is some instructions on how you might hack a few points around to make a scissors crossover, for example. Another example is bending a straight point by cutting the webbing. Now doing that will almost certainly invalidate any warranty, because you are significantly altering it.

 

So if you think a Peco point is 'faulty', then you should be fully entitled to return it for repair, replacement or refund, if the point has been reasonably used within expectations.

So JC is exactly right on what he says about Roxley Models.

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1 hour ago, JC said:

 

Not quite....Roxley Models said do the solder and if it doesn't work we'll replace/refund. So for their part they were prepared to have the warranty invalidated. Perhaps it was low risk on their part as (as I now know) the solder is going to 100% fix the issue.

Roxley Models are saying that, because its within the scope of what is expected usage of a Peco point. See my other post on this topic above.

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40 minutes ago, kevinlms said:

I don't see why carefully soldering will invalidate any warranty.

 

Something like a point is intended to be used on a layout. That means stuff like pushing pins through sleeper blind holes, soldering wires to it for traction purposes, ballasting it, applying paint of some sort to weather it, are normal tasks to a railway modeller.

Tasks such as any or all of the above, appear in every single issue of the Railway Modeller, indeed it is actively encouraged to do such tasks. There is NEVER any warning that following advice in the magazine, will invalidate any warranty. Railway modellers are sort of expected to do something more with it.

 

It doesn't mean that you can abuse a point, an example might be as has been seen in Railway Modeller or the web, is some instructions on how you might hack a few points around to make a scissors crossover, for example. Another example is bending a straight point by cutting the webbing. Now doing that will almost certainly invalidate any warranty, because you are significantly altering it.

 

So if you think a Peco point is 'faulty', then you should be fully entitled to return it for repair, replacement or refund, if the point has been reasonably used within expectations.

So JC is exactly right on what he says about Roxley Models.

Fair enough, but I wonder if Peco, as opposed to a dealer, would honour the warranty on a turnout that they could claim had been altered to be used in a way not intended by the design and construction.  It'd be a moot point (sorry) but I wouldn't like to have to argue it with them.  And in any case, if we are assuming that the problems are being caused by a faulty batch, they'll only replace it with another faulty turnout anyway, as that's all they'll have in stock, and I doubt they'd bother to check every electrofrog turnout in the warehouse; as I've said, they may not be fully aware of the problem yet anyway.  Repair is unlikely in this day and age, replacement simply replaces the same problem, and a refund, which most businesses regard as a last resort and offer all sorts of 'credit notes' as alternatives to ensure the money is kept 'in house' is useless if you want a lh insulfrog code 100 small turnout and nothing else will do the job.

Edited by The Johnster
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