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Stanier Pacifics in the West country?


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Today I am clearing out and came across railway modeller March 1974. Inside front cover is this advert for the Hornby stanier princess Victoria. £5.20(!!)

But the write up says, "... Was used on London to the West Country and Glasgow express passenger trains".

Glasgow, yes of course, but West Country? Really? Did these locos ever operate down here?

Ian

 

20200915_161820.jpg.69bdab31fbffc726784d19c3f071fafa.jpg

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Yes, but not regularly. Two Princesses were loaned to the Western Region when the Kings were withdrawn with bogie trouble in 1956. 6207 and 6210, each for a few weeks only. It hardly justifies the advert's claims.

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12 minutes ago, LMS2968 said:

Yes, but not regularly. Two Princesses were loaned to the Western Region when the Kings were withdrawn with bogie trouble in 1956. 6207 and 6210, each for a few weeks only. It hardly justifies the advert's claims.

Ah, ok, that makes sense.

Thanks

Ian

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All depends on what you call "West Country".

 

Does anything left of the Pennines count? 

What about Holyhead?

Bristol was definitely classed as West Country. I'm pretty sure they must have got to Bristol Temple Meads occasionally.

 

Photo of 46207 when allocated to the Western Region here.

 

http://www.historywebsite.co.uk/Museum/Transport/Trains/gwr/mpd4.htm

 

But I think the person who wrote it probably meant West Coast as in WCML.

 

 

Jason

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4 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

All depends on what you call "West Country".

 

Does anything left of the Pennines count? 

What about Holyhead?

Bristol was definitely classed as West Country. I'm pretty sure they must have got to Bristol Temple Meads occasionally.

 

Photo of 46207 when allocated to the Western Region here.

 

http://www.historywebsite.co.uk/Museum/Transport/Trains/gwr/mpd4.htm

 

But I think the person who wrote it probably meant West Coast as in WCML.

 

 

Jason

Yes I wondered that too. But "London to the West coast and Glasgow express passenger trains" doesn't sound quite right grammatically. And was it called the WCML back in 1974?

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14 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

Bristol was definitely classed as West Country. I'm pretty sure they must have got to Bristol Temple Meads occasionally.

I don't think they did; I've never seen any photos of them there. Remember they were Western Division locos all their lives; Bristol was Midland Division and there were no diagrams to take the Lizzies on to the Midland, over much of which they were banned,

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21 minutes ago, LMS2968 said:

I don't think they did; I've never seen any photos of them there. Remember they were Western Division locos all their lives; Bristol was Midland Division and there were no diagrams to take the Lizzies on to the Midland, over much of which they were banned,

 

I was thinking more via Shrewsbury and Hereford rather than using a lesser railway.  ;) 

 

 

 

Jason

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From " Memories of the Mangotsfield to Bath Branch " Avon Valley Railway old publication :

Recorded as being at Bristol, 

46237 21/4/55 1300 - 1615

Also 22 and 23/4/55

46257 27/1//56 1300 -1615

28/1/65 1100 - 1400.

8/2/63 46220 0500 - 1800

20/4/63 46229 1630.

46229 was the only Coronation to travel via the Mangotsfield line, being towed by Grange 6825 en route to preservation at Minehead. 

46201 appeared at Bristol open day in 67 and was run around via the Mangotsfield triangle light engine.

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6237 and 6257 were loaned to the WR in 1956, same as 6207 and 6210 in an earlier post, so not a LMR working from Crewe / Salop. 6220 was withdrawn 20/4/63, so possibly a railtour? Not shown on Six Bells Junction. 6229 and 6201 both in preservation and not BR service.

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I think the time 46220 got to Bristol was on an overnight train from Crewe and beyond. It was a last minute replacement for something else and was the only spare loco Crewe had steamed up ready to go. There was a report of it in Trains Illustrated at the time.

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18 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

All depends on what you call "West Country".

 

Does anything left of the Pennines count? 

What about Holyhead?

Bristol was definitely classed as West Country. I'm pretty sure they must have got to Bristol Temple Meads occasionally.

 

Photo of 46207 when allocated to the Western Region here.

 

http://www.historywebsite.co.uk/Museum/Transport/Trains/gwr/mpd4.htm

 

But I think the person who wrote it probably meant West Coast as in WCML.

 

 

Jason

All the old English counties counted as Wrst Country came as far east as including Wiltshire and Dorset so Swindon is definitely in the West Country in geographic terms. (we might possibly have Thomas Hardy to thank for making that clear?).  The West of England has always been a different area from the West country' and includes only CornwaLl, Devon and, arguably, Somerset.

 

Coming to another question above Stanier pacifics were regulars at Shrewsbury from their early days because Crewe 0- Shresbury was a running in route for them.  Hence it was not at all unusual, at one time, to see streamlined Stanier pacifics at Shrewsbury and there is good photographic evidence of that.  There doesn't appear to be any evidence of them working south of Shrewsbury on the North & West in pre-preservation days but you never know!!

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Going slightly off topic I’ve long thought that “what pacific locos have worked scheduled passenger services along the south Devon sea wall?” Would make a good quiz question. 
 

The answer (I think) is quite interesting. The Great Bear quite probably didn’t but I can’t say for sure; it would have been outside of its normal sphere of operations. Brits certainly were used along the sea wall. As said above a couple of Princess Royals and Princess Coronations for a short time while the kings bogies were strengthened. West Country/ Battle of Britains were used on Exeter to Plymouth trains to keep Southern drivers familiar with the route but I don’t think Merchant Navy’s because although they were ok on the WR route they were too heavy for the SR route to Plymouth.

 

I’m sure others will be able to add to this list or correct me.


Once we get to the diesel era I reckon pretty much every preserved class of Pacific with a mainline ticket will have passed along the sea wall bit of course not on ordinary scheduled trains.

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35 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

  The West of England has always been a different area from the West country' and includes only CornwaLl, Devon and, arguably, Somerset.

 

 

That's what I would have thought for a long time, but nowadays it is being used to denote something like the area formerly covered by the County of Avon https://www.westofengland-ca.gov.uk/

 

In Bristol we have the University of the West of England and the Royal West of England Academy.

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17 minutes ago, Chris M said:

Going slightly off topic I’ve long thought that “what pacific locos have worked scheduled passenger services along the south Devon sea wall?” Would make a good quiz question...

In addition to those you mention, LNER A1*, A4**, SR MN**. (*1925 and **1948 exchange trials.)

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1 hour ago, The Stationmaster said:

Coming to another question above Stanier pacifics were regulars at Shrewsbury from their early days because Crewe 0- Shresbury was a running in route for them.  Hence it was not at all unusual, at one time, to see streamlined Stanier pacifics at Shrewsbury and there is good photographic evidence of that.  There doesn't appear to be any evidence of them working south of Shrewsbury on the North & West in pre-preservation days but you never know!!

They were also diagrammed to Salop on local passenger turns. This was because Crewe North's turntable was only 60 feet and too small to turn them. Pacifics arriving from the north were placed on these locals and turned on the triangle south of Salop station, so came back to Crewe right way round to return to Scotland. But that's as far south as they ventured!

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19 hours ago, LMS2968 said:

Fair enough, but I still con't think they got to Bristol!

 

15 hours ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

I think the time 46220 got to Bristol was on an overnight train from Crewe and beyond. It was a last minute replacement for something else and was the only spare loco Crewe had steamed up ready to go. There was a report of it in Trains Illustrated at the time.

 

1 hour ago, The Stationmaster said:

Coming to another question above Stanier pacifics were regulars at Shrewsbury from their early days because Crewe 0- Shresbury was a running in route for them.  Hence it was not at all unusual, at one time, to see streamlined Stanier pacifics at Shrewsbury and there is good photographic evidence of that.  There doesn't appear to be any evidence of them working south of Shrewsbury on the North & West in pre-preservation days but you never know!!

 

Didn't get it quite right earlier. I've now found the reference to 46220 in the April 1663 issue of Modern Railways. 

 

"On February 7 No. 46220 (12B) was put on a special from Crewe comprising through coaches from Glasgow which had been delayed further north and failed to connect with the 2 a.m. Crewe - Penzance. The Pacific travelled through to Bristol via Pontypool Road and the Severn Tunnel and then ran light to Pontypool Road shed, whence it appears to have run light to Shrewsbury on February 9."

 

A similar thing had apparently happened about 2 weeks earlier but the motive power on that occasion was an Ivatt Class 2 No. 46417 which was a Bury loco at the time

 

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28 minutes ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

 

 

 

Didn't get it quite right earlier. I've now found the reference to 46220 in the April 1663 issue of Modern Railways. 

 

"On February 7 No. 46220 (12B) was put on a special from Crewe comprising through coaches from Glasgow which had been delayed further north and failed to connect with the 2 a.m. Crewe - Penzance. The Pacific travelled through to Bristol via Pontypool Road and the Severn Tunnel and then ran light to Pontypool Road shed, whence it appears to have run light to Shrewsbury on February 9."

 

A similar thing had apparently happened about 2 weeks earlier but the motive power on that occasion was an Ivatt Class 2 No. 46417 which was a Bury loco at the time

 

An excellent Control interpretation of the WR Route Availability Book which was rather ambiguous and could be read  as saying that if a Class isn't barred it is therefore permitted - we were still playing that one locally in my part of the WR in the early 1970s (until a Class 45 was derailed at Cranmore one day).

 

1 hour ago, Chris M said:

Going slightly off topic I’ve long thought that “what pacific locos have worked scheduled passenger services along the south Devon sea wall?” Would make a good quiz question. 
 

The answer (I think) is quite interesting. The Great Bear quite probably didn’t but I can’t say for sure; it would have been outside of its normal sphere of operations. Brits certainly were used along the sea wall. As said above a couple of Princess Royals and Princess Coronations for a short time while the kings bogies were strengthened. West Country/ Battle of Britains were used on Exeter to Plymouth trains to keep Southern drivers familiar with the route but I don’t think Merchant Navy’s because although they were ok on the WR route they were too heavy for the SR route to Plymouth.

 

I’m sure others will be able to add to this list or correct me.


Once we get to the diesel era I reckon pretty much every preserved class of Pacific with a mainline ticket will have passed along the sea wall bit of course not on ordinary scheduled trains.

Very amusingly there was a rather impressionistic Edwardian era postcard which shows the 'The Great Bear' at the head of a Down train emerging alongside the sea wall from what looks remarkably like one of the tunnels immediately west of Dawlish.  Load of total piffle of course as the engine wasn't allowed west of Bristol.

 

Incidentally the only way a Southern 'Merchant Navy' could reach Plymouth was via the WR route because both the originals and rebuilts were barred via the former L&SWR route

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5 minutes ago, LMS2968 said:

They were also diagrammed to Salop on local passenger turns. This was because Crewe North's turntable was only 60 feet and too small to turn them. Pacifics arriving from the north were placed on these locals and turned on the triangle south of Salop station, so came back to Crewe right way round to return to Scotland. But that's as far south as they ventured!

Didn't they turn the same way as Crewe South locos did via Gresty Bridge 

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1 hour ago, LMS2968 said:

They were also diagrammed to Salop on local passenger turns. This was because Crewe North's turntable was only 60 feet and too small to turn them. Pacifics arriving from the north were placed on these locals and turned on the triangle south of Salop station, so came back to Crewe right way round to return to Scotland. But that's as far south as they ventured!


Always thought their appearances on locals at Salop was for ex works running in turns....viz Crewe …Salop…Stafford. First mention of 5A turntable length reason I have heard.Interesting indeed.My first sight of a green Duchess was 46236 ex works at the front of 3 Stanier suburban stock Crewe bound from Salop,1954..Other than that,heavy North to West trains were their province,alongside Lizzies,Scots,Patriots ,Black 5’s etc.

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1 hour ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

 

 

 

Didn't get it quite right earlier. I've now found the reference to 46220 in the April 1663 issue of Modern Railways. 

 

"On February 7 No. 46220 (12B) was put on a special from Crewe comprising through coaches from Glasgow which had been delayed further north and failed to connect with the 2 a.m. Crewe - Penzance. The Pacific travelled through to Bristol via Pontypool Road and the Severn Tunnel and then ran light to Pontypool Road shed, whence it appears to have run light to Shrewsbury on February 9."

 

A similar thing had apparently happened about 2 weeks earlier but the motive power on that occasion was an Ivatt Class 2 No. 46417 which was a Bury loco at the time

 


And that was 1963 when almost anything could be seen anywhere.

In “ proper” steam days ( tongue in cheek ) the largest LMR loco seen south of Salop as far as Pontypool Road-was the daily Longsight ( 9A ) out&home turn,later Crewe North ( 5A) during Manchester-Crewe electrification.which produced 7P/6P motive power .A Longsight favourite in the 50’s was 46115....now a YouTube Settle &:Carlisle favourite.

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