Has anyone got a line drawing with dimensions for this loco

[Londontram]

Hi guys and gals a tital change for you. Discussing with fellow member Andy (uax6) we were wondering if anyone has a line drawing for this loco with the basic dimensions or know where we could find one for the Midland Kirtley out side framed 6ft 2 1/2 inch wheel 2-4-0 like the one preserved at the Midland Railway center.

 

 

 Thanks in advance Steve

 

Edited September 18, 2020 by Londontram
Spelling correction

[Ben Alder]

Is the Ratio one this class?

 

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Ratio-Midland-Johnson-2-4-0-Motorized-HO-Kit-with-Lima-Tender-Drive/264836021641?hash=item3da974fd89:g:O~YAAOSwOFJfOtk~

[Gordon A]

I believe Ratio used to do a plastic kit for a Kirtley , I think a 2-4-0.

[Londontram]

Hello Richard no sorry as it says thats the Johnson (passenger) loco, Ratio also made a 4-4-0 as well I believe.

 We're interested in the Kirtley (freight) loco.

 

 Don't all jump on me here I'm just generalizing if I refers to them as  passenger of freight.

[Joseph_Pestell]

I'm assuming that we want 4mm scale.

 

K's did the 0-6-0 Kirtley. The mould tools, if still usable, should be with NuCast Partners. I don't think that the conversion would be all that easy.

[Steamport Southport]

London Road do an inside framed version.

 

http://www.londonroadmodels.co.uk/

 

I think we were discussing the lack of these recently. Particularly of the outside frame 2F 0-6-0, some of which managed to scrape into BR days.

 

 

Jason

[Londontram]

1 hour ago, Steamport Southport said:

London Road do an inside framed version.

 

http://www.londonroadmodels.co.uk/

 

I think we were discussing the lack of these recently. Particularly of the outside frame 2F 0-6-0, some of which managed to scrape into BR days.

 

 

Jason

I believe evrn 158A the 2-4-0 at the Midland Railway center made it to the early 1950s as the station pilot at Nottingham station before being preserved.

[PenrithBeacon]

The K's white metal kit of the 0-6-0 turns up on eBay often enough but I think you'd be very brave to attempt to convert one into the 2-4-0

Cheers

[The Johnster]

The Ratio 2-4-0 might be a starting point, but the chassis has a poor reputation which is no doubt why the eBay loco has Lima tender drive.  There are better tender drives than Lima's...  One would need to fabricate the outside frames and the curved running plate, but the boiler and tender parts of the Ratio should be useable, as should the framing and axleboxes for the leading axle.  The loco is never going to be up to modern standards of scale or accuracy, but might be an acceptable 'layout' model.

 

Another possibility might be to use the chassis and mech from the Bachmann 1P as the 'works' of it'' this will definitely give you better and smoother running.

[Steamport Southport]

13 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

The Ratio 2-4-0 might be a starting point, but the chassis has a poor reputation which is no doubt why the eBay loco has Lima tender drive.  There are better tender drives than Lima's...  One would need to fabricate the outside frames and the curved running plate, but the boiler and tender parts of the Ratio should be useable, as should the framing and axleboxes for the leading axle.  The loco is never going to be up to modern standards of scale or accuracy, but might be an acceptable 'layout' model.

 

Another possibility might be to use the chassis and mech from the Bachmann 1P as the 'works' of it'' this will definitely give you better and smoother running.

 

The later chassis was the good bit. Once they realised that plastic doesn't work for a chassis they reissued it with a proper etched chassis from Perseverance.

 

So if you can find one with that chassis they are fine. Just need a bit of weight which is where the problem is.

 

http://www.wmcollectables.co.uk/index.php?pg=es&cat=702

 

I doubt that a Bachmann 1P will be of much use. If it's like the LNWR Coal Tank and L&YR 2-4-2T then all available space will be full of motor and other bits. Especially where the tanks are. They also weigh a ton so I'm assuming there is a lot of metal in them.

 

 

Jason

[Londontram]

Thanks chaps I'm beginning to build a picture here of what if l take it forward will be the direction to go. As l said it will be a joint project with Andy (uax6) so the first thing we will need is a good line drawing,

 A GA drawing might be to complex for our needs in OO but at the moment anything that has the main basic dimensions, something like a photo copy from a book or something like that please if any one can help.

 

 Thanks again Steve 

[Londontram]

Just now, Londontram said:

Thanks chaps I'm beginning to build a picture here of what if l take it forward will be the direction to go. As l said it will be a joint project with Andy (uax6) so the first thing we will need is a good line drawing,

 A GA drawing might be to complex for our needs in OO but at the moment anything that has the main basic dimensions, something like a photo copy from a book or something like that please if any one can help.

 

 Thanks again Steve 

,,

[JCL]

Hi Steve, is this something that @Knuckles might be interested in looking at with you?

[t-b-g]

I have an  800 Class Midland 2-4-0 which was built from a Jidenco kit many years ago, not by me.

 

It was one of their better kits.

 

I believe there may have been more than one Kirtley 2-4-0 with outside frames but perhaps one of our tame Midland experts can fill in the gaps in my knowledge!

 

 

[Steamport Southport]

I'm pretty sure there are drawings in the Midland Railway Locomotives books. Both the Wild Swan set and the Irwell books. I've only got a couple of each, but not the relevant volumes.

 

Dave Hunt and Compound would know where to find them.

 

 

 

Jason

[Poor Old Bruce]

There were two variations of Kirtley's double framed 2-4-0s. 1907 numbers 1-22 (No.2, aka 158A, is the preserved one) had 6ft 3in driving wheels and nos 23-67 (the 800 Class) had 6ft 8in wheels. Looks like Jidenco/Falcon did kits for both. The engine diagrams given in Summerson's book show no details but do give the wheelbase as 8ft + 8ft 6in (what else would they be?).

[Nicktoix]

There is an excellent series of articles in Midland Record 32 to 34 on Kirtley 240s with GAs and .a side sketch

Better to work from a GA where they exist rather than a weight diagram which are notoriously unreliable. 

Also remember to check that the horizontal and vertical scales are the same. Printing often causes distortions. 

Nick

[Nick Holliday]

J N Maskelyne prepared a drawing for the 800 class, which appears in Locomotives I Have Known, which is reproduced at 4mm in Essery and Jenkinson Volume 2, which also has a Woodhead drawing of a 156 class, at 4mm, but only showing the loco side elevation - more detailed than a simple weight diagram though.

[Florence Locomotive Works]

I suggest you go and look at @Mrkirtley800s fantastic thread on his midland layout. He may have drawings. I also believe someone who frequently posted there made a model of your loco, or late least had a picture of a model one as their profile picture. 

[doilum]

I have a drawing labelled Johnson no 253 class 1P. If this is any use, PM me an address and I will put it in the post.

[Compound2632]

The preserved engine is a member of the 156 Class, built at Derby from 1866. They were not goods engines but intended for secondary passenger duties, which work they remained on for most of their lives. What they look like (and what tender they have) depends very much on the date you're modelling, though constant features are the outside frames with the standard Derby 8'0" + 8'6" wheelbase. 

 

There is a rather good drawing showing "late Midland / LMS condition" - much as preserved - in R.J. Essery and D. Jenkinson, An Illustrated History of Midland Locomotives Vol. 2 (Wild Swan, 1998) Fig. 1 p. 11. For the origins and early appearance of the class, there's D. Hunt, The Kirtley Era 2–4–0s, Part 2, Midland Record No. 33 (Wild Swan Publications, 2011) pp. 3-34; this has Beyer Peacock drawings of the similar 170 Class, which could at least provide a guide to the shape of the outside frames. For full details of re-boilerings, tenders, etc., the place to go is S. Summerson, Midland Railway Locomotives Vol. 2 (Irwell Press, 2007) Ch. 6. If you think any of this will be of interest or use, PM me.

 

On 19/09/2020 at 09:08, Poor Old Bruce said:

There were two variations of Kirtley's double framed 2-4-0s. 1907 numbers 1-22 (No.2, aka 158A, is the preserved one) had 6ft 3in driving wheels and nos 23-67 (the 800 Class) had 6ft 8in wheels. 

 

If only the history of Kirtley 2-4-0s was quite so simple! But the 156 and 800 Classes were the ones that survived to be taken into LMS stock and hence (via Messers Jenkinson and Essery) into most enthusiasts' and modellers' consciousnesses.

[Londontram]

The actual loco were interested in is this one Number 4 which was tested on the former Highland railway at Inverness in 1928 

 As 158A was number 2 and as this is number 4 one would presume that they are of the same class of 6ft 2 1/2inch Kirtley 2-4-0

  This image supposedly taken while at Inverness, can any one also confirm the tender type.

 Thanks

Image from the Highland Railway Album volume 2 by Anthony I Lambert. Ian Allan LTD

Edited September 22, 2020 by Londontram
Add more information

[Compound2632]

Aha, I thought that might be it. No. 4, pre-1907 No 89A*, is indeed a member of the 156 Class, built at Derby in November 1866. Its condition is pretty much the same as the preserved example and the drawing in Essery & Jenkinson. Summerson reports: "After Grouping, the LMS cast about for suitable replacements for some of the older Highland Railway engines and in 1928 despatched No. 4 to Inverness for trials. It was recorded at Forres but was soon returned whence it came." According to the LMS 1927 tender list, No. 4, along with the majority of surviving class members, had a Johnson 2,750 gal tender; it seems reasonable presume it took this tender with it to Scotland. 

 

*No. 115 when built, on the duplicate list as 115A in 1880, back on the capital list as No. 89 in 1883, then back on the duplicate list 1896.

[Poor Old Bruce]

On 19/09/2020 at 09:08, Poor Old Bruce said:

There were two variations of Kirtley's double framed 2-4-0s. 1907 numbers 1-22 (No.2, aka 158A, is the preserved one) had 6ft 3in driving wheels and nos 23-67 (the 800 Class) had 6ft 8in wheels. Looks like Jidenco/Falcon did kits for both. The engine diagrams given in Summerson's book show no details but do give the wheelbase as 8ft + 8ft 6in (what else would they be?).

 

On 22/09/2020 at 11:38, Compound2632 said:

If only the history of Kirtley 2-4-0s was quite so simple! But the 156 and 800 Classes were the ones that survived to be taken into LMS stock and hence (via Messers Jenkinson and Essery) into most enthusiasts' and modellers' consciousnesses.

 

Admonishment accepted. There were, indeed, earlier examples of Kirtley double-framed 2-4-0s although no members of other classes survived to be included in the 1907 re-numbering, let alone become candidates for Jidenco/Falcon kits.

[Londontram]

Thank you Compound2632 for the PM with the drawing and additional information which has given us more than enough to take it further.