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LNWR 4-4-0s on goods trains?


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26 minutes ago, Buhar said:

The Improved Claughtons, later called Jubilees, pre-dated the Black Fives and were known colloquially as Red Fives. Black Five followed from this.

Alan 

What the enthusiasts called 'Jubilees' were always known to enginemen as 5Xs, even to the end of steam, but also sometimes as 'Red Fives' or 'Red 'uns'. I spoke to a driver at Liverpool Exchange in April 1968. His comment, 'Unless its an express working I'd rather have a Black 'un than a 5X any day,' has stayed with me ever since.

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Jubilees was the official class name from IIRC 1936 when 5552 got the black and chrome livery, not just a spotters name. Enginemen may have taken little note of this unless dealing with a company pedant.

Alan 

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51 minutes ago, Buhar said:

Jubilees was the official class name from IIRC 1936 when 5552 got the black and chrome livery, not just a spotters name. Enginemen may have taken little note of this unless dealing with a company pedant.

Alan 

Absolutely true, bur enginemen paid no attention to the official appellations, e.g:,

 

Parallel boiler 2-6-0 - Crab (also by spotters)

Taper Boiler 2-6-0 - Crab

Patriot - Baby Scot (the official name adopted to discourage the unofficial one, without success!)

Jubilee - 5X or Red 'un

Princess Royal - Lizzie

Princess Coronation - Lizzie, Big Lizzie, Big 'un

 

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Many years ago I did some research at Kew on the Jubilees and the only title I could come across until they were named 'Jubilee' Class was 'Improved Taper Boiler Claughton' which is an odd designation for a railway that was very publicity conscious. It's no wonder that footplate crew referred to them as '5X', but the other name of 'Red 5' must have come after the introduction of the 'Black 5'. Just when crews started to call the engine '5X' isn't AFAIK recorded.

 

In 1941, because of the introduction of services that penetrated it's lines from the LMS, the LNER gave LMS designs their own designation, '5XA' for the Patriots and '5XB' for the Jubilees. These lasted until the end of steam on the former LNER, but there was no such designation for the surviving large boilered Claughtons.

 

Cheers

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On 21/09/2020 at 03:12, PenrithBeacon said:

Many years ago I did some research at Kew on the Jubilees and the only title I could come across until they were named 'Jubilee' Class was 'Improved Taper Boiler Claughton' which is an odd designation for a railway that was very publicity conscious. It's no wonder that footplate crew referred to them as '5X', but the other name of 'Red 5' must have come after the introduction of the 'Black 5'. Just when crews started to call the engine '5X' isn't AFAIK recorded.

 

In 1941, because of the introduction of services that penetrated it's lines from the LMS, the LNER gave LMS designs their own designation, '5XA' for the Patriots and '5XB' for the Jubilees. These lasted until the end of steam on the former LNER, but there was no such designation for the surviving large boilered Claughtons.

 

Cheers

That isn't surprising about the LNER, who it seemed to prefer sub classes for differences in their locos. Makes a lot of sense.

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On 20 September 2020 at 18:12, PenrithBeacon said:

Many years ago I did some research at Kew on the Jubilees and the only title I could come across until they were named 'Jubilee' Class was 'Improved Taper Boiler Claughton' which is an odd designation for a railway that was very publicity conscious. It's no wonder that footplate crew referred to them as '5X', but the other name of 'Red 5' must have come after the introduction of the 'Black 5'. Just when crews started to call the engine '5X' isn't AFAIK recorded.

 

In 1941, because of the introduction of services that penetrated it's lines from the LMS, the LNER gave LMS designs their own designation, '5XA' for the Patriots and '5XB' for the Jubilees. These lasted until the end of steam on the former LNER, but there was no such designation for the surviving large boilered Claughtons.

 

Cheers

'improved Taper Boiler Claughton' sounds much more like a working title that the loco drawing office would have used long before the publicity department had come up with the 'posh' title for the class.

 

Jim

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7 hours ago, kevinlms said:

That isn't surprising about the LNER, who it seemed to prefer sub classes for differences in their locos. Makes a lot of sense.

They were very much telegraph codes, but came into general use on the LNER, BR(NE) & (E).

 

About 20 years ago there was a Yahoo group on the LMS and one of the members was a former BR(NE) man whose name I never knew but he was a very abrasive character who didn't like enthusiasts, which was a shame because most of the group's membership were enthusiasts! He used to use these codes freely in his posts which is how I found out about them. I can remember one particular controversy where he insisted that Jubilees were never used on Bradford-Carlisle services because their 'RA' number was too high. I did the research and learned a lot by and by.

 

The LMS did use the Jubilees on Bradford-Carlisle services and there is a lot at Kew which proves it. There was one issue though, the south to west chord at Shipley which was very tight and the LMS did specific live clearance tests on the curve with a very strict speed restriction designed to ensure that the locomotive didn't lean over when negotiating it. When the former LMS routes in Yorkshire were taken over by NER the region applied the RA concept to the engines and this caused the Jubilees to theoretically fall out of loading gauge at Shipley. And theoretically is the word because it appears that the RA system was very much a drawing office construct, nobody actually repeated the tests the LMS had done in the early 30s. Eventually the platforms on the south to west chord were taken out (early sixties, not exactly sure when) and Jubilees and Scots could then be used. I believe this was particularly useful for fast fitted freights. In the 70s the chord was singled and re-aligned  which further helped heavy trains running over the curve.

 

Funny the things you can learn when a loudmouth annoys you!

 

Cheers

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7 minutes ago, jim.snowdon said:

'improved Taper Boiler Claughton' sounds much more like a working title that the loco drawing office would have used long before the publicity department had come up with the 'posh' title for the class.

 

Jim

Yes, very much so, but it was several years before the LMS management came up with the catchy 'Jubilees'. What did they call them in between, perhaps 5X!

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16 minutes ago, jim.snowdon said:

'improved Taper Boiler Claughton' sounds much more like a working title that the loco drawing office would have used long before the publicity department had come up with the 'posh' title for the class.

 

I wonder if it's more a piece of phraseology that originated with the Operating Department, who had a considerable say on locomotive policy on the LMS, as has been mentioned. It's of a piece with "Improved Prince of Wales" for the Black 5s. What the operating people wanted was locomotives that could do the work of the worn-out LNWR types; they certainly got them! (Once the initial problems with the Jubilees were sorted out - though I don't think I've read of any early problems with the Improved Claughtons aka Patriots.)

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14 minutes ago, PenrithBeacon said:

About 20 years ago there was a Yahoo group on the LMS and one of the members was a former BR(NE) man whose name I never knew but he was a very abrasive character who didn't like enthusiasts, which was a shame because most of the group's membership were enthusiasts!

That unfortunately is true of many railwaymen and ex-railwaymen, and I have to confess to it myself on occasion; being told that something was so by someone who has never been there can grate on the nerves! Perhaps I've mellowed a bit since then.

 

One such person who told me of his intense dislike of railway enthusiasts was Patricroft man and brilliant photographer, Jim Carter. I always had to hide a smile: Jim was one of the greatest enthusiasts I ever met!

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2 hours ago, PenrithBeacon said:

They were very much telegraph codes, but came into general use on the LNER, BR(NE) & (E).

 

About 20 years ago there was a Yahoo group on the LMS and one of the members was a former BR(NE) man whose name I never knew but he was a very abrasive character who didn't like enthusiasts, which was a shame because most of the group's membership were enthusiasts! He used to use these codes freely in his posts which is how I found out about them. I can remember one particular controversy where he insisted that Jubilees were never used on Bradford-Carlisle services because their 'RA' number was too high. I did the research and learned a lot by and by.

 

The LMS did use the Jubilees on Bradford-Carlisle services and there is a lot at Kew which proves it. There was one issue though, the south to west chord at Shipley which was very tight and the LMS did specific live clearance tests on the curve with a very strict speed restriction designed to ensure that the locomotive didn't lean over when negotiating it. When the former LMS routes in Yorkshire were taken over by NER the region applied the RA concept to the engines and this caused the Jubilees to theoretically fall out of loading gauge at Shipley. And theoretically is the word because it appears that the RA system was very much a drawing office construct, nobody actually repeated the tests the LMS had done in the early 30s. Eventually the platforms on the south to west chord were taken out (early sixties, not exactly sure when) and Jubilees and Scots could then be used. I believe this was particularly useful for fast fitted freights. In the 70s the chord was singled and re-aligned  which further helped heavy trains running over the curve.

 

Funny the things you can learn when a loudmouth annoys you!

 

Cheers

Yes, I seem to remember such a discussion about the Jubilees and Shipley.

 

There was also someone (could have been the same person) who hated enthusiasts and published some books on coaching allocations. He went on a bit, so I asked if he was going to limit sales of his books, to ex-railwaymen only! Never did get an answer to that question, for some reason.

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4 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I wonder if it's more a piece of phraseology that originated with the Operating Department, who had a considerable say on locomotive policy on the LMS, as has been mentioned. It's of a piece with "Improved Prince of Wales" for the Black 5s. ...

 

though I don't think I've read of any early problems with the Improved Claughtons aka Patriots.)

The Patriots were first mentioned in minutes as 'Improved Claughtons' by Fowler. Whether he got the phrase from others I don't know. I think it became part of management speak and was enhanced by the use of a taper boiler in the Jubilee!

I think you have to bear in mind that the the Patriot boiler was designed at Derby before the GW influence brought about by Stanier. John Jennison, in one of his books on the Black 5s, mentions that the DLDO changed the superheater header to one that had a smaller cross sectional area. This boiler was first introduced on the Jubilees and was re-used on the early 5s. It might be that softer exhaust on the 5X was why it didn't work so well on the design. Whatever, I'm convinced that if Stanier knew more about superheating (or knew his limitations) that the superheating issues wouldn't have arisen, either GW practice would have been fully adopted (which it clearly wasn't) or existing Derby practice would have continued. As it was Derby practice was eventually reverted to, no doubt enhanced by the trauma of the early Jubilee boiler.

Cheers

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The 3 Series boilers (3A - Jubilee; 3B - Black Five; 3C - 8F; 3D 2-6-0) were all designed around common parameters and, importantly, the same flanging blocks . All except the 3D started with 14 element superheaters, both saturated and superheated steam sharing the same header, unlike GWR where they were separated. All suffered from poor tube ratios, although the 3B, 3C and 3D had adequate steaming from the start. All were increased to 21 elements (the 3Cs had these from new), but the other big change was the reduction in tube diameter from two inches and above to 1 7/8 (3A and 3B) and 1 3/4 (3C and 3D) Some 3A and 3B boilers later got 24 elements and some 3B even got 28 (only one 3A got 28) but the 3C and 3D stayed at 21, which was medium degree superheat.

 

The initial problems with the 3As on the Jubilees were multiple so fixing one problem didn't necessarily make a big improvement, which is why it took so long to achieve, and even then they were never 100% reliable for steam. As well as the tube ratios and low degree superheat (which magnified rather than caused the problems), there were also problems with the blastpipe and chimney dimensions and positions. I have heard it said that this was result of Stanier having no experience of three-cylinder engines on the GWR, but I find it difficult to believe that he became that involved in the detail design to specify these dimensions. On the other hand, Derby was well versed in three-cylinder engines with the Scots and Baby Scots, both good steam raisers.

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1 hour ago, jim.snowdon said:

It only seems fair to point out that the Royal Scots were designed by North British rather than Derby.

 

Jim

 

That is a myth. May I refer you to Locomotive Profiles No. 15 which provides a detailed and less simplistic account of the design process for the Royal Scots.

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