Which Kit for a novice to build

[doilum]

On 23/09/2020 at 21:33, doilum said:

Speaking from the safety of the larger scale, the real challenge is that of current collection. A topic surprisingly rarely discussed on this forum.

And to prove my point: on what has been a lively and quick witted thread, no-one has replied!

[ianLMS]

13 minutes ago, doilum said:

And to prove my point: on what has been a lively and quick witted thread, no-one has replied!

As I mentioned earlier, current collection is a real problem when building kits to work with DCC. Its not impossible, just requires a bit more effort to get things perfect and adding as many pick up points as possible. My next kit I plan on building a "live chassis" to see if that makes it any easier. Just need to be super careful that the chip is very well isolated.

[Jeff Smith]

Electrical pick-up is a whole subject on its own....  I have been putting off installing pick-ups on my 63xx as I'm not sure how to hide them effectively.  Tank engines are much easier!

[AJCT]

2 hours ago, Jeff Smith said:

Electrical pick-up is a whole subject on its own....  I have been putting off installing pick-ups on my 63xx as I'm not sure how to hide them effectively.  Tank engines are much easier!

 

This is my preferred MO - pickups on the tender only.  I have four 0-6-0s which work this way: LNER (ex-NBR) J35, J36 and 2 J37s, with an LNER J38 under construction.  Ideally there should be pickups on all wheels, but at least my method reduces the amount of clutter under the loco when you allow for brake- and sanding gear.  This is the J38 tender: the pickups are just cobbled together with bits of PCB strip, copper and brass wire, with scraps of plasticard for insulation.  Connection to the loco is by 2-pin plug and socket - I've used the Comet Models ones, but others are available - see the RH end of the chassis underside pic.  The top tread-wiper pickups help to keep the wheels clean, and the extra weight of the cast tender body also helps to counteract the extra "springing" effect of the brass wire pickups.

 

My stuff is built to P4 standards for analogue control, so I don't know if it helps DCC users ?  HTH anyway -

 

Alasdair

[Jeff Smith]

This solution had not occurred to me....  makes a lot of sense.  Mine is also DC P4.

 

Having the wipers on the treads is good as you only have to make sure the treads are clean without worrying about the backs as well.  I like to bend the last mm at about 45 deg (of phosphor bronze strip) so that the contact is an edge rather than just flat.  This gives a higher pressure per area and tends to self clean.  Flat pick-ups can trap debris and lose contact.

[doilum]

6 hours ago, ianLMS said:

As I mentioned earlier, current collection is a real problem when building kits to work with DCC. Its not impossible, just requires a bit more effort to get things perfect and adding as many pick up points as possible. My next kit I plan on building a "live chassis" to see if that makes it any easier. Just need to be super careful that the chip is very well isolated.

I have a couple of tender locos which use the American collection system. Eventually I plan to fit a chip to allow them to use the club layout which is  dcc. The tender chassis is totally isolated from the body, I need to do the same with the loco to avoid any potential shorting out.

[ianLMS]

I think the easy answer is if u like building kits, stay on analogue. I will try a couple more kits on dcc and if its still not happening i will sell the dcc stuff and revert back to analogue. Or build a second layout lol!!!

[hayfield]

51 minutes ago, ianLMS said:

I think the easy answer is if u like building kits, stay on analogue. I will try a couple more kits on dcc and if its still not happening i will sell the dcc stuff and revert back to analogue. Or build a second layout lol!!!

 

I think from the little I have seen at our club, those who prefer running stock love DCC. Those who build items prefer DC as its so east to test, I know there are some who crossover both ways. But rather than spend a lot out on electronics I rather buy another kit. 

[doilum]

37 minutes ago, hayfield said:

 

I think from the little I have seen at our club, those who prefer running stock love DCC. Those who build items prefer DC as its so east to test, I know there are some who crossover both ways. But rather than spend a lot out on electronics I rather buy another kit. 

The bit they miss is that all kits should be built DC. Only when fully tested and sorted and running perfectly should a chip be installed. Otherwise the invisible gremlins of dcc make mechanical and current collection issues difficult to isolate and resolve.

[Jeff Smith]

1 hour ago, hayfield said:

 

I think from the little I have seen at our club, those who prefer running stock love DCC. Those who build items prefer DC as its so east to test, I know there are some who crossover both ways. But rather than spend a lot out on electronics I rather buy another kit. 

Well said.  I dabbled with a RTR On30 DCC setup but ended up selling the layout complete with the DCC controller.  The locos I retained have dual chips so will run on DC.

[Barry O]

Try using phosphor bronze wire.. it is far better than using the strip! It can be bent to shape and seems to work well for me. The biggest chassis which cause headaches in fitting pick ups too are those with large spring hangers on them (like the DJH standard chassis). It takes a bit more time but it can be done!

 

I have some "american style" pick up locos (ie tender is live to one rail, chassis of loco live to the other. It is a real pain - especially when people can't be bothered to fasten an insulated  draw bar to keep them apart ( it does result in lots of sparks..in DCC it does result in lost of smoke from the chip.

 

0-6-0s can have all wheel pick ups. Seems to work for my Agenoria loco (NOT recommended for beginners!0 - 

 

This has 6 wheel pick up (including the flangeless middle pair and works well on DCC (Digitraxx chip fitted) on Herculaneum Dock. Its performance has been transformed since a Graphite stick has been run on bits of the track.

 

Baz

[doilum]

5 minutes ago, Barry O said:

Try using phosphor bronze wire.. it is far better than using the strip! It can be bent to shape and seems to work well for me. The biggest chassis which cause headaches in fitting pick ups too are those with large spring hangers on them (like the DJH standard chassis). It takes a bit more time but it can be done!

 

I have some "american style" pick up locos (ie tender is live to one rail, chassis of loco live to the other. It is a real pain - especially when people can't be bothered to fasten an insulated  draw bar to keep them apart ( it does result in lots of sparks..in DCC it does result in lost of smoke from the chip.

 

0-6-0s can have all wheel pick ups. Seems to work for my Agenoria loco (NOT recommended for beginners!0 - 

 

This has 6 wheel pick up (including the flangeless middle pair and works well on DCC (Digitraxx chip fitted) on Herculaneum Dock. Its performance has been transformed since a Graphite stick has been run on bits of the track.

 

Baz

No need for isolated draw bar if the frames are insulated and the draw bar attached to the superstructure. Hi

[Barry O]

Just now, doilum said:

No need for isolated draw bar if the frames are insulated and the draw bar attached to the superstructure. Hi

Makes it more difficult to build - I try to keep things as simple as I can. All of the locos with "American style" pick ups are being worked to have pick ups on all wheels. It can be inetersting trying to use bankers if you don't get the "body" polarity right! You then need to have insulated couplings..if like me you use DGs that is...

 

Baz

[Barry O]

Of course you can also see how a professional model maker and kit designer does pick ups..

 

Mike Edge pick ups

 

Baz

[doilum]

22 minutes ago, Barry O said:

Makes it more difficult to build - I try to keep things as simple as I can. All of the locos with "American style" pick ups are being worked to have pick ups on all wheels. It can be inetersting trying to use bankers if you don't get the "body" polarity right! You then need to have insulated couplings..if like me you use DGs that is...

 

Baz

Exactly why I intend looking at insulating the loco frames from the superstructure.

[Barry O]

Just now, doilum said:

Exactly why I intend looking at insulating the loco frames from the superstructure.

Good luck with that one.. tried it (using very thin insulating material) which again was a pain to make and fit...

 

Baz

[doilum]

2 minutes ago, Barry O said:

Good luck with that one.. tried it (using very thin insulating material) which again was a pain to make and fit...

 

Baz

The tenders were quite easy ( I have done five) using a strip of 10 thou Plastikard and insulating the mounting screw using part of a discarded fountain pen cartridge. I am under no illusions that something with outside valve gear like the WD might be more challenging so I will probably start with the J25. Still it should provide a low cost  project for the winter lockdown!

[Michael Edge]

5 hours ago, doilum said:

No need for isolated draw bar if the frames are insulated and the draw bar attached to the superstructure. Hi

That's how I do it in 7mm with cast iron wheels.

[Michael Edge]

I should have added that it's the tender inner frames which are insulated, not the loco frames - much too difficult.

[Barry O]

On 26/09/2020 at 10:37, ianLMS said:

I think the easy answer is if u like building kits, stay on analogue. I will try a couple more kits on dcc and if its still not happening i will sell the dcc stuff and revert back to analogue. Or build a second layout lol!!!

Ian

 

This is not right. Can you pm me a photo of the pick up arrangements as, normally  if it works ok on dc it should be fine on dcc.

 

Baz

[ianLMS]

Ive tried various pick up arrangements, usually fitted to all driving wheels using phospher bronze strips, dcc concepts type, or nickel silver in both .33 and .45mm on standard copper clad board. Works fine analogue, very intermittent dcc using zimo chips. Some locos run fine, some dont. Im positive its something not quote right when its all reassemblef such as motion gear not perfectly smooth etc. I am building a comet chassis now so will check each stage and make sure its perfect before moving to the next stage and will report back.