Unconventional scales and/or gauges.

[009 micro modeller]

1 minute ago, rocor said:

On seeing that the 2mm scale association produces track components and locomotive wheel rims, I did consider joining so as to buy the components, and adopting this as a standard in building a 1:120 scale layout, (though if the association had found out, I would probably have been black balled).

 

Meaning 12mm gauge in 1:120 but with 2mm FS rail/wheel profile? Or using 9.42mm for narrow gauge?

[rocor]

10 minutes ago, 009 micro modeller said:

 

Meaning 12mm gauge in 1:120 but with 2mm FS rail/wheel profile? Or using 9.42mm for narrow gauge?

 

1:120 scale/12mm (standard gauge) with a 2mm FS rail/wheel profile. I was thinking more in terms of a Victorian or a light railway rather than a more modern main line. So that if the rail/wheel profile was a little under scale it would not be so incongruous.

Edited September 24, 2020 by rocor
too many thans.

[sncf231e]

The next train does not have an unconventional scale, since as a toy it has no scale. The gauge however is unconventional being 30 mm (so 2 mm less than 0 gauge). Around 1900 the French toymaker FV started to use this gauge. Later its successor JEP/JdeP (Jouets de Paris (Toys from Paris)) still used this gauge for smaller and cheaper train sets while their normal range of trains used 0 gauge. 

Regards

Fred

Edited September 30, 2020 by sncf231e

[009 micro modeller]

10 hours ago, sncf231e said:

The next train does not have an unconventional scale, since as a toy it has no scale. The gauge however is unconventional being 30 mm (so 2 mm less than 0 gauge). Around 1900 the French toymaker FV started to use this gauge. Later its successor JEP/JdeP (Jouets de Paris (Toys from Paris)) still used this gauge for smaller and cheaper train sets while there normal range of trains used 0 gauge. 

Regards

Fred

 

Similarly, weren’t there a few S scale tinplate trains that still used 0 gauge track? While going more modern, the electric Lego train sets have an unusual gauge of about 37.5mm. Do you have any idea why FV chose 30mm?

[PatB]

9 minutes ago, 009 micro modeller said:

 

Similarly, weren’t there a few S scale tinplate trains that still used 0 gauge track? While going more modern, the electric Lego train sets have an unusual gauge of about 37.5mm. Do you have any idea why FV chose 30mm?

US manufacturers were very keen on S scale, but 0 gauge. American Flyer were a major proponent, but eventually went to S gauge proper. Marx, however, where they had any pretensions to "scale", almost always went for 3/16" to the foot, whilst retaining 0 gauge track. Lionel's less expensive 0-27 items were also often decidedly undercooked for 0 but scaled nicely for S.

[009 micro modeller]

Also I had a quick look at this earlier and it seems that manufacturers chose various gauges, including 25 and 30mm (though sometimes measured 28 and 33, rail centre to centre) before a ‘standard’ 0 gauge was decided on.

 

While we’re on the subject, has anyone mentioned American 00? 4mm scale but on more accurate (but not finescale) 19mm gauge track.

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_OO_scale

 

It’s unclear what the point of this was, given that British 00 was only chosen due to the smaller size of UK prototypes and still used 16.5mm gauge, although possibly there are similar size problems with specific, early US prototypes?

Edited September 30, 2020 by 009 micro modeller

[sncf231e]

3 hours ago, 009 micro modeller said:

 

Do you have any idea why FV chose 30mm?

When FV made its first 30 mm trains (around 1890) there were no gauges standardised; why they choose 30 mm I wouldn't know. Märklin introduced the "standards" Gauge I, II and III in 1892 and introduced a smaller gauge (which of course had to be called gauge 0) much later in 1898. All this described in my (free to download) e-book on gauge and scale: http://sncf231e.nl/gauge-and-scale/

As far as I know the 30 mm gauge (called 33 mm) was typical French (also used by the toy train maker CR (Rossignol). Bing in Germany made tinplate trains to a smaller gauge called 28 mm (being 25 mm as we measure between rails); JEP and CR also made trains to this gauge.

 

Regards

Fred

 

 

[sncf231e]

4 hours ago, 009 micro modeller said:

While we’re on the subject, has anyone mentioned American 00? 4mm scale but on more accurate (but not finescale) 19mm gauge track.

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_OO_scale

 

It’s unclear what the point of this was, 

I assume the point of this was the marketing strategy of Lionel. In 1938 American Flyer introduced their H0 gauge range. American Flyer was the main competitor of Lionel, so Lionel also had to introduce something similar and they introduced 00 gauge. Lionel was known for introducing new gauges to kill the competition. They did the same by introducing Standard Gauge which caused the end of Gauge 1 in the US. Well, with 00 gauge did did not go as expected, in 1942 American 00 gauge was gone.

Regards

Fred

 

 

Edited September 30, 2020 by sncf231e

[009 micro modeller]

7 hours ago, sncf231e said:

Well, with 00 gauge did did not go as expected, in 1942 American 00 gauge was gone.

 

Though not completely - it does still have a small following: http://americanoo.blogspot.com/?m=1

 

Having a quick read about this, it sounds as though it was not related to H0 scale in the way that British 00 is, but was actually intended to be a distinct scale from the start (or at least, neither of the two similar scales was then sufficiently established to become the standard). With hindsight, it’s perhaps a shame that no British manufacturers adopted the American 00 standard on 19mm gauge, as it would have given us a more accurate gauge while still being able to use 4mm scale. How this would have affected the use of H0 scale in Europe and America is another matter though. Apparently modern American 00 can be done in such a way as to use 0n3 components (nearly identical at 19.05mm). I’ve also heard of a couple of British-built 00 scale early US prototype layouts built some time ago, but using British 00 (on 16.5mm gauge) with things like the Triang ‘Davy Crockett’ loco and relevant Airfix figures.

 

In N, as usual there is a slightly larger scale for British prototypes (1:148 as opposed to 1:160) but the 000 standard is 1:152 (true 2mm/ft - presumably used by most 2mm FS modellers and I think also by Lone Star for their RTR 000 trains). I’m not completely clear on why 1:148 was adopted later. A further bizarre aspect of this is that Lone Star’s original unpowered diecast trains were based on Hornby and Triang stock at half size, which extended to the use of 8.25mm gauge track (half of 00/H0), although the electric ones were 9mm gauge.

 

In the very small scales, there’s also the similarly weird and apparently proprietary (in the sense of ‘specific to a particular manufacturer’) standard of ZZ: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZZ_scale

 

As an aside, can anyone confirm that ZZ is actually a distinct scale (1:300 as in the Wikipedia article as opposed to 1:220) and not, as I’d originally thought, a way to model Japanese 3’ 6” gauge railways in Z scale?

Edited September 30, 2020 by 009 micro modeller

[sncf231e]

12 hours ago, 009 micro modeller said:

 

As an aside, can anyone confirm that ZZ is actually a distinct scale (1:300 as in the Wikipedia article as opposed to 1:220) and not, as I’d originally thought, a way to model Japanese 3’ 6” gauge railways in Z scale?

Models in ZZ scale are based on modern Japanese trains like the Shinkansen; these run on standard gauge and not on the Japanese 3’ 6” gauge. All Japanese high speed lines are standard gauge and 4.8 mm * 300 is  1440 (almost the correct  standard gauge of 1435 mm).

Regards

Fred

[009 micro modeller]

38 minutes ago, sncf231e said:

Models in ZZ scale are based on modern Japanese trains like the Shinkansen; these run on standard gauge and not on the Japanese 3’ 6” gauge. All Japanese high speed lines are standard gauge and 4.8 mm * 300 is  1440 (almost the correct  standard gauge of 1435 mm).

Regards

Fred

 

I’m not sure they all are - one of the Bandai ZZ trains seems to be based on a commuter EMU which could be 3’ 6” (but equally could be 4’ 6”, which is also used in Japan). Most of them seem to be various generations of Shinkansen stock though. Bandai ZZ seems very toylike, although having run a simple layout with T gauge equipment for several years I wonder whether the battery power might be more reliable than track power for these small sizes.

 

I get the impression that ZZ was immediately eclipsed by T as the smallest scale, while not offering as much RTR as either T or Z (perhaps in a similar way to S scale, which is stuck between 00/H0 and 0, although I doubt that ZZ will ever attract the following that S does). It does seem a nice size though, being close to 1mm/ft. I wonder whether Zm (4.5mm gauge) components could be useful for ZZ in any way. Out of interest, I realise they’re out of production but does anyone know where it might be possible to acquire Bandai ZZ equipment?

[009 micro modeller]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/253_series

 

These 3’ 6” gauge units appear to be the prototype for one of the Bandai sets, so I wonder if it’s actually Z scale on a smaller gauge. Although they seem to be a similar size to the Bandai Shinkansen, so potentially they’re just 1:300 also and using an incorrect gauge, as with Japanese N.

[rocor]

14 hours ago, 009 micro modeller said:

 

Though not completely - it does still have a small following: http://americanoo.blogspot.com/?m=1

 

Having a quick read about this, it sounds as though it was not related to H0 scale in the way that British 00 is, but was actually intended to be a distinct scale from the start (or at least, neither of the two similar scales was then sufficiently established to become the standard). With hindsight, it’s perhaps a shame that no British manufacturers adopted the American 00 standard on 19mm gauge, as it would have given us a more accurate gauge while still being able to use 4mm scale. How this would have affected the use of H0 scale in Europe and America is another matter though. Apparently modern American 00 can be done in such a way as to use 0n3 components (nearly identical at 19.05mm). I’ve also heard of a couple of British-built 00 scale early US prototype layouts built some time ago, but using British 00 (on 16.5mm gauge) with things like the Triang ‘Davy Crockett’ loco and relevant Airfix figures.

 

In N, as usual there is a slightly larger scale for British prototypes (1:148 as opposed to 1:160) but the 000 standard is 1:152 (true 2mm/ft - presumably used by most 2mm FS modellers and I think also by Lone Star for their RTR 000 trains). I’m not completely clear on why 1:148 was adopted later. A further bizarre aspect of this is that Lone Star’s original unpowered diecast trains were based on Hornby and Triang stock at half size, which extended to the use of 8.25mm gauge track (half of 00/H0), although the electric ones were 9mm gauge.

 

In the very small scales, there’s also the similarly weird and apparently proprietary (in the sense of ‘specific to a particular manufacturer’) standard of ZZ: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZZ_scale

 

As an aside, can anyone confirm that ZZ is actually a distinct scale (1:300 as in the Wikipedia article as opposed to 1:220) and not, as I’d originally thought, a way to model Japanese 3’ 6” gauge railways in Z scale?

 

 

I had posed the question in the past on a rmweb thread as to why British N gauge, once the established "foreign" scale of 1:160 scale had been rejected was to build to 1:148 scale, rather than the scale that British modellers had already adopted of 2mm/ft.

 

There does not appear to be clear answer to this question, other than to conclude that the first manufactures of RTR British N gauge chose the scale arbitrarily much in the way that the Japanese  kit manufacturer Tamiya started to produce model tank kits in the 1960's at 1:35 scale, oblivious to the fact that 1:32 was a long established scale for military modelling.

[scaro]

2.7mm/ft on 14.2mm for Victorian (Australian) 5'3" gauge. 1:112.89 or  TT-113? 

 

As many things work on it as with any weird gauge/scale combo. And the three wagon bodies I made looked okay. 

 

They all orbit around one gauge  working out to be 90% of another, or is it 11.11% bigger?

 

And Victorian trains being either 10% larger than British, or 10% smaller than American.

 

It gets complicated. Trust me. 

 

Ben

Edited October 21, 2020 by scaro

[KeithHC]

No has mentioned Gordon Gravett. I seamed to recall he used 18.2 gauge for metre gauge with a scale around 1/55

 

Keith

[009 micro modeller]

On 22/10/2020 at 13:37, KeithHC said:

No has mentioned Gordon Gravett. I seamed to recall he used 18.2 gauge for metre gauge with a scale around 1/55

 

Keith

 

Gordon and Maggie Gravett used 1:50, as I recall on the basis that it was a good ratio for converting metric measurements from full size. I think Gordon also mentioned in an article on Pempoul that the advantages of being able to use EM components outweighed the benefits of scratchbuilding to an accurate but very unusual 20mm gauge. Shortly afterwards a couple of other 1:50 scale layouts appeared at exhibitions, but using 16.5mm gauge (they were freelance). Edit: I think actually one of these did use 18.2mm like Pempoul, representing 3ft gauge. A couple of years ago I briefly looked at 1:50 (or 6mm/ft) as an option for modelling a potential 18” gauge prototype-based layout on 9mm gauge more accurately than 09. Similarly, has anyone attempted 7mm scale on 10.5mm gauge?

Edited December 23, 2020 by 009 micro modeller

[rocor]

2 hours ago, 009 micro modeller said:

 

Gordon and Maggie Gravett used 1:50, as I recall on the basis that it was a good ratio for converting metric measurements from full size. I think Gordon also mentioned in an article on Pempoul that the advantages of being able to use EM components outweighed the benefits of scratchbuilding to an accurate but very unusual 20mm gauge. Shortly afterwards a couple of other 1:50 scale layouts appeared at exhibitions, but using 16.5mm gauge (they were freelance). A couple of years ago I briefly looked at 1:50 (or 6mm/ft) as an option for modelling a potential 18” gauge prototype-based layout on 9mm gauge more accurately than 09. Similarly, has anyone attempted 7mm scale on 10.5mm gauge?

 

I have not attempted it, but have considered it. Since acquiring the book ' The Royal Arsenal Railways' by Mark Smithers, I have been considering building a small layout loosely based based upon a small section of the Royal Arsenal's 18" gauge railway. My musing have taken on everything between 7mm scale/10.5mm gauge to 1/10th scale /gauge 1.

[Alex TM]

Hi again,

 

Just a suggestion for the masochists, or the very skillful, in our midst:

 

Scotch Gauge - 4'6" gauge using 4mm: 1ft on EM gauge (out by 0.2mm  but is close enough); challenge is that you would mostly be modelling Scottish railways of the mid-19th century, or Tokyo trams.

 

(Another option would be 7mm:1ft on 32mm track; again it would be out but by only 0.5mm.)

 

Just a thought ....

 

Regards,

 

Alex.

[rocor]

34 minutes ago, Alex TM said:

Hi again,

 

Just a suggestion for the masochists, or the very skillful, in our midst:

 

Scotch Gauge - 4'6" gauge using 4mm: 1ft on EM gauge (out by 0.2mm  but is close enough); challenge is that you would mostly be modelling Scottish railways of the mid-19th century, or Tokyo trams.

 

(Another option would be 7mm:1ft on 32mm track; again it would be out but by only 0.5mm.)

 

Just a thought ....

 

Regards,

 

Alex.

 

Another subject for the modelling of non-standard gauge early railways in Scotland.

 

The Dundee and Arbroath Railway from 1838 to 1848, it had a track gauge of 5ft 6ins.

 

This could be modelled in 3mm/ft scale with a track gauge of 16.5mm.

[009 micro modeller]

5 hours ago, Alex TM said:

Scotch Gauge - 4'6" gauge using 4mm: 1ft on EM gauge (out by 0.2mm  but is close enough); challenge is that you would mostly be modelling Scottish railways of the mid-19th century, or Tokyo trams.

 

Or the Lee Moor Tramway and related lines, which latterly had two locos: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plymouth_and_Dartmoor_Railway

 

On the Japanese side, there are some heavier commuter lines using this gauge as well, although it did originate with trams.

 

Southend Cliff Railway (not the pier railway) is also 4’ 6”, but the track on which the counterweight runs is 1’ 9”. But that’s a rather bizarre niche example.

 

Similarly, finescale 00 (with 16.2mm gauge and properly-sized sleepers etc., or even regular 00) could be used to closely represent the Padarn Railway, Glasgow Subway or other 4ft lines.

Edited October 24, 2020 by 009 micro modeller

[sncf231e]

Here is a presentation of trains in rare gauges called 28 mm and 33 mm (the distance between the rails was 25 and 30 respectively(; so smaller than 0 gauge but larger than S gauge. And only used for toy train sets.

 

 

Regards

Fred

[Bristol_Rich]

I model Swedish Narrow gauge (891mm gauge/ Swedish 3 foot) which conveniently converts to 25.4mm (1 inch) gauge in 1/35 scale. As a result I can exploit 7mm scale wheels and 1/35 scale military (civilian) kits...and scratchbuild the rest....

 

 

 

[rocor]

15 hours ago, Bristol_Rich said:

I model Swedish Narrow gauge (891mm gauge/ Swedish 3 foot) which conveniently converts to 25.4mm (1 inch) gauge in 1/35 scale. As a result I can exploit 7mm scale wheels and 1/35 scale military (civilian) kits...and scratchbuild the rest....

 

 

 

 

Do you produce your models using photographs for your references?, or (unlikely as it seems) are there drawings available for Swedish narrow gauge rolling stock?. The third possibility that comes to my mind is that you have been to Sweden to collect the necessary information to produce your scale models from source.

[Bristol_Rich]

6 hours ago, rocor said:

 

Do you produce your models using photographs for your references?, or (unlikely as it seems) are there drawings available for Swedish narrow gauge rolling stock?. The third possibility that comes to my mind is that you have been to Sweden to collect the necessary information to produce your scale models from source.

There are plenty of drawings available via various forums, websites and members willing to share info, as well as much trawling through online images for specific details.
 

As niche as it may seem, the narrow gauge network across Sweden both - 891mm and 1098mm - were (in comparison to standard gauge) extensive.

 

 

 

[Timber]

I am an S Scale modeller but want to build a Gauge 2 garden railway so that I can run this beautiful loco I aquired a few years back.

 

If anyone models in Gauge 2 I would be keen to hear their experiences....