Unconventional scales and/or gauges.

[sncf231e]

I do not model in gauge 2 (but in gauge 1 (and other gauges)). Is this a clockwork or an electric version? For the latter you need to make a garden layout with 3-rail track. I doubt whether (2- or 3-rail) gauge 2 rail is available on the market.

Regards

Fred

[Timber]

it is 3 rail.......i would make my own track........could i use gauge 1 rail do you think?  

[sncf231e]

The rail to be used has to be compatible with the flanges. I use Tenmille (http://www.tenmille.com/) Bullhead rail and rail-chairs and all gauge 1, including tinplate Bing and Märklin etc, and LGB/MTH stock with high flanges can run on it. Another possibility (but not that nice looking) would be LGB type of rail which is much higher.

Regards

Fred

[Nortonville Phil]

On 22/12/2020 at 10:24, Timber said:

I am an S Scale modeller but want to build a Gauge 2 garden railway so that I can run this beautiful loco I aquired a few years back.

 

If anyone models in Gauge 2 I would be keen to hear their experiences....

Building a gauge 2 layout is a neat idea. I have been thinking about doing something in this size. A model of a standard gauge loco should be built in 1:28.25 scale to be exact. In the past some built to 7/16” to the foot scale. This makes the loco a bit big for the gauge. A simple way to get started in American outline would be to convert 1:29 scale equipment to Gauge 2. This would make the track gauge just a bit wide in 1:29. But certainly a bit better looking than 1:29 on gauge 1 track. David Viewing has been doing some work in vintage Gauge 2. 

 

 

http://www.viewing.com/Model Railways/Gauge 2/The Gauge 2 Model Railway.html

 

P.A. Randall

Dallas, Texas

[Timber]

Thank you Phil - very helpbful......so the commercially made gauge 2 that Bing and others made.....was this compromised in some way between track gauge and the exact scale.....bit like OO and 4mm....

 

Do you know of anyone whop may have gauge 2 standards....there just seems to be a lack of any real info on this gauge.

[sncf231e]

According to this table of Henry Greenly (engineer with Bassett-Lowke) the scale used with No 2 gauge was 1:27.1 while the correct scale as mentioned above is 1:28.25 

 

As mentioned in my (free to download) e-book on gauge and scale (http://sncf231e.nl/gauge-and-scale/) there are no standards for gauge 2.

 

Regards

Fred

Edited January 3, 2021 by sncf231e

[sncf231e]

Some extra info from 1929 (when gauge 2 was still "alive"):

 

 

 

Regards

Fred

Edited January 4, 2021 by sncf231e

[009 micro modeller]

According to Wikipedia (more accurate sources are probably available) pre-1909 “Gauge 2” was what we now call Gauge 3. I’m not sure if this is likely to cause any confusion in this case though: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2_gauge

 

Has 2 inch gauge been used in any other scales?

 

 

[sncf231e]

34 minutes ago, 009 micro modeller said:

more accurate sources are probably available?

 

 

Yes: http://sncf231e.nl/gauge-and-scale/

Regards

Fred

[Nortonville Phil]

Fred, thanks for posting the old scale info sheets. Nice to have these.

 

P.A. Randall

[Nortonville Phil]

On 04/01/2021 at 07:25, 009 micro modeller said:

 

Has 2 inch gauge been used in any other scales?

 

 

OO9,

 

There was an American toy train maker called Carlisle & Finch that made large scale mine train toys that ran on 2 inch gauge track. They were more of a caricature than a scale model of mining equipment.

 

Phil 

[009 micro modeller]

11 hours ago, Nortonville Phil said:

OO9,

 

There was an American toy train maker called Carlisle & Finch that made large scale mine train toys that ran on 2 inch gauge track. They were more of a caricature than a scale model of mining equipment.

 

Phil 

 

And here are some photos and video: https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/topic/carlisle-and-finch-mining-train-circa-1908?nc=1

 

I wonder if they’re close to 2ft gauge in 1:12 scale?

 

On a slightly different note, does anyone know what gauge the model railway at Anglesey Model Village is? It’s 1:12 scale (and unlike a lot of other model villages the railway is too, rather than being Gauge 1, but I’m not sure exactly what gauge it is).

[Damo666]

I thought we had it complicated enough with our H0 -v- 00 (and EM, P4 and all the variants in between). And that's before we go to 0 Gauge and N Gauge.

 

But have a little sympathy for our U.S. Cousins. Came across this today (I thought they had it all sorted in H0 being the holy grail of scale gauge track -v- scale models):

H0, H0n2, H0n3, H0n3.5, H0n30

S, Sn2, Sn3

0, 0n2, 0n3, 0n30

N, Nn3

Z, Zm

TT

 

From the https://www.handlaidtrack.com/quicksticks website.

 

[rocor]

There would appear to be two distinct approaches for anyone who wishes to model in gauge 2.

 

Modelling to current standards of scale accuracy to produce models of a size that the individual finds to their liking.

 

Taking the retro outlook, and producing models that match the original tinplate gauge 2 size and style.

 

The first option would require devising a whole new set of modelling standards, whilst the second entails matching up to items that already exist.

[Satan's Goldfish]

On 04/01/2021 at 13:25, 009 micro modeller said:

According to Wikipedia (more accurate sources are probably available) pre-1909 “Gauge 2” was what we now call Gauge 3. I’m not sure if this is likely to cause any confusion in this case though: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2_gauge

 

Has 2 inch gauge been used in any other scales?

 

 

 

To add to the confusion, i understand that what we call gauge 3 is known as gauge 2 (Spur 2) on the continent, basically used as a standard gauge alongside 45mm G gauge (Spur 2m). Combinations of scale and gauge seem to get a bit fluid when dealing with 45mm G gauge. LGB produce everything from 2ft narrow gauge prototypes to standard gauge items all to run with each other on the same track; gauge stays the same, scale changes, but somehow the same model figures work with it all! Would need to look at some numbers, but that does make me wonder whether 2inch gauge would be a better fit with their standard gauge DB items than 45mm gauge is (LGB standard gauge models on 45mm track are not the same scale as gauge 1)

[Mol_PMB]

I once had plans for an Irish layout in 6mm:ft scale. I got as far as building a few items of rolling stock and then interest waned.

In 6mm scale, the Irish track gauge scales out at 31.5mm so I used ordinary O gauge track, wheelsets etc. Except that that I had to go down a size on the wheels so the wagons had 'lowmac' wheels etc.

American O gauge is 1:48 (6.3mm:ft) so loco chassis and detail fittings were close enough for my purposes. I bought a switcher with flexicoil trucks intending it to rebody it as a 141 class but never did the conversion.

 

I also had a serious foray into Om scale which I may well return to in due course. That's an established scale for modelling Swiss prototypes, and uses 1:45 scale and 22.2mm gauge track. A lot of scratchbuilding involved!

[Nearholmer]

Interesting thread; two thoughts:

 

- has anyone mentioned F scale? This is a very good combo using 45mm gauge for 3ft, so 15mm/ft. It has some following in the US among ‘finescale garden railway’ fans and ditto in the U.K., and Accucraft have supplied live steam and electric locos for both. The scale is 1:20.3, but I confess to having used straight 1:20 when I built Irish wagons, because I have a 1:20 scale rule!

 

- someone back up-thread says that LGB flexes as far as 2ft gauge prototypes, but I’m not convinced. Their feldbahn stock is based around German Army WW2 750mm gauge 4W wagon type that was built by the thousands, and the two locos are based on a metre gauge Deutz OMZ117f preserved in Germany, and an O&K 20hp steamer preserved in New Zealand, which is actually 3’6” gauge, both instances of standard 600mm gauge designs that were stretched not in model form by LGB but in the real world. The OMZ117f was a special order from the factory, built to metre gauge; the O&K steamer was I think originally 2ft gauge, and rebuilt to 3'6" in preservation.

 

 

Edited February 11, 2021 by Nearholmer

[Satan's Goldfish]

1 hour ago, Nearholmer said:

Interesting thread; two thoughts:

 

- has anyone mentioned F scale? This is a very good combo using 45mm gauge for 3ft, so 15mm/ft. It has some following in the US among ‘finescale garden railway’ fans and ditto in the U.K., and Accucraft have supplied live steam and electric locos for both. The scale is 1:20.3, but I confess to having used straight 1:20 when I built Irish wagons, because I have a 1:20 scale rule!

 

- someone back up-thread says that LGB flexes as far as 2ft gauge prototypes, but I’m not convinced. Their feldbahn stock is based around German Army WW2 750mm gauge 4W wagon type that was built by the thousands, and the two locos are based on a metre gauge Deutz OMZ117f preserved in Germany, and an O&K 20hp steamer preserved in New Zealand, which is actually 3’6” gauge, both instances of standard 600mm gauge designs that were stretched not in model form by LGB but in the real world. The OMZ117f was a special order from the factory, built to metre gauge; the O&K steamer was I think originally 2ft gauge, and rebuilt to 3'6" in preservation.

 

 

 

My bad. tbh, i've never paid that much close attention to the feldbahn range as it doesn't match with what i play with in the garden. Still a big amount of flex from 750mm to standard gauge prototypes though! I've a vague memory of reading somewhere that LGB (and G in general) can be a bit flexible with their scales, but the swiss meter gauge items generally conform to 1:22.5. Checking wikipedia (always a reliable source!) it quotes G as anywhere from 1:13 to 1:32 on 45mm track https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G_scale despite the fact that 1 gauge is also 1:32 on 45mm track.

 

F scale looks interesting, is it a different catagory to G as it has finer wheel and rail standards?

 

 

Edit: Just done a bit of Maths, 45mm at a 1:13 scale is 585mm gauge. is that for modelling 1' 11.5'' narrow gauge on G track? they must be some good chunky models!

Edited February 11, 2021 by Satan's Goldfish

[Nearholmer]

F-scale tends to use the same wheel standard as 16mm/ft, which is an evolution from "Gauge 0 guild coarse", which is mainly "coarse" in terms of b-t-b and tread-width, rather than flange-depth. Once you take it up from 7mm/ft to 15 or 16mm/ft, it is pretty close to scale, and crucially is about the finest standard that works in practice in the garden without vast amounts of faffing about (all the 'fine' in the world is NBG if it derails if it runs over a grain of sand!). Here's one I prepared earlier:

 

Don't decry the LGB wheel profile, though, as many do. It is a very smart piece of engineering design, with full compatibility with their point-work design - it might not be 'scale' in one sense, but it certainly is proper railway engineering made small, which is why their trains. on their points, ride so smoothly.

 

'G' is a terribly 'catch all' term now. When LGB started it, they nailed it specifically to 1:22.5, but they wandered a tiny bit, stretching 750mm prototypes to fit, then US makers started using it for under-gauge, smaller-scale, based on standard-gauge stuff, and LGB had to compete in that market, and total anarchy set in! Their feldban stuff is a bit over 1:22.5 scale, probably nearer 1:20, which suits me, and their European 750mm and metre gauge are close to 1:22.5, although some coaches are compressed in length.

 

1:13th on 45mm also has a following, and again Accucraft now supply live steamers for it. It is known as '7/8th scale', as in "seven eighths of an inch to the foot". IMO it is the best scale for small industrial n.g. prototypes of the kind I like, it looks really good outdoors, but I committed heavily to c1:20 when I was properly into garden railways, so I don't think I'll ever go there.

Edited February 11, 2021 by Nearholmer

[009 micro modeller]

On 30/09/2020 at 22:57, 009 micro modeller said:

In the very small scales, there’s also the similarly weird and apparently proprietary (in the sense of ‘specific to a particular manufacturer’) standard of ZZ: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZZ_scale

 

I have now bought one of the Bandai ZZ sets secondhand on eBay, partly out of curiosity. It is based on one of these, a standard gauge prototype and thus probably avoiding any gauge issues: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/E3_Series_Shinkansen

 

For standard gauge, the 4.8mm gauge scales to an accurate 1440mm (the actual standard in some countries and very close in any case). I understand that the 3’ 6” prototype models are to 1:285 scale, still over-gauge though at about 4’ 6”.

 

It is rather coarse and toylike although better than I’d expected. The set was made in 2005.

 

 

 

The track is very coarse but looks OK from a distance.

 

 

Some prototype information is displayed on the box (including some dimensions, although I haven’t yet had time to go round it with a ruler to see if it matches up). Edit: I’ve now measured the coaches: they are exactly scale length and only slightly overscale in width and height (by about 0.5-1.0mm in each). The wheels are gauged to allow plenty of sideways tolerance. It is noticeably larger than T gauge in any case, and having never had much Z gauge I don’t really have a sense of the size compared to that. I did also get an extra centre car from another set although there don’t seem to be any additional coupler bars for this.

 

 

It also comes with this slightly odd ‘station.’

 

 

The (only) curve radius is enormous compared to the gauge, although as with T gauge this may be caused by the limitations of the technology at such a small size.

 

 

This shot shows both of what I think are the weakest and most toylike aspects. The coupler bars seem liable to get lost or broken and must be removed to fit the coaches back in the box. They also mean that the coaches all have to be re-railed together after coupling up which is very fiddly. The other thing, which is very toylike, is the single driven axle where two axles should be, but the side frames disguise this well once on the track. The driven axle is driven by a tiny, single-speed motor powered by a watch battery, although I haven’t been inside to work out how to change the battery yet (I gather that the front bogie lifts out to give access to the battery compartment but didn’t want to break anything by being too hasty). I was expecting lack of traction to be an issue given that only one axle out of eleven is driven, but actually it seems quite smooth and capable. This might change if more coaches were added of course.

 

 

I’m in two minds about what to do with it. On one hand it could potentially be used to construct a 4mm or S scale miniature railway of around 12-15” prototype gauge, or re-bodied in 1:300 scale to represent a UK prototype. However, I quite like it as it is and think that adding larger scale (heavier, less stable) bodies might be pushing the capabilities of the mechanism a bit too far, while I’m unlikely to produce anything reasonable in 1:300 without getting heavily into 3D printing. A small Japanese layout using some of the accessories produced in 1:300 for non-railway (including architects’) models seems like it could be fun at some point (when I have the time). It will probably end up being a bit coarse but no more so than larger scale layouts built to coarse standards.

Edited February 14, 2021 by 009 micro modeller

[PatB]

A bit late to the party here, as regards Gauge 2, but I'd see track and wheel standards in this size to be very much up to the preference of the individual modeller. After all, it's now so rare that interoperability with other enthusiasts' stock isn't likely to be much of an issue . Mind you, if I was working in it, I'd be inclined to treat it as a vintage, coarse scale proposition, using the "Greenly" type dimensions, to allow the use of any original items that might be found.

[Timber]

Not so much of an unconventional scale but here is my latest S Scale engine....full details of the build in the S Scale section of RMWeb,,,,,,

Edited February 28, 2021 by Timber

[bradfordbuffer]

On 13/02/2021 at 19:12, 009 micro modeller said:

 

I have now bought one of the Bandai ZZ sets secondhand on eBay, partly out of curiosity. It is based on one of these, a standard gauge prototype and thus probably avoiding any gauge issues: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/E3_Series_Shinkansen

 

For standard gauge, the 4.8mm gauge scales to an accurate 1440mm (the actual standard in some countries and very close in any case). I understand that the 3’ 6” prototype models are to 1:285 scale, still over-gauge though at about 4’ 6”.

 

It is rather coarse and toylike although better than I’d expected. The set was made in 2005.

 

 

 

The track is very coarse but looks OK from a distance.

 

 

Some prototype information is displayed on the box (including some dimensions, although I haven’t yet had time to go round it with a ruler to see if it matches up). Edit: I’ve now measured the coaches: they are exactly scale length and only slightly overscale in width and height (by about 0.5-1.0mm in each). The wheels are gauged to allow plenty of sideways tolerance. It is noticeably larger than T gauge in any case, and having never had much Z gauge I don’t really have a sense of the size compared to that. I did also get an extra centre car from another set although there don’t seem to be any additional coupler bars for this.

 

 

It also comes with this slightly odd ‘station.’

 

 

The (only) curve radius is enormous compared to the gauge, although as with T gauge this may be caused by the limitations of the technology at such a small size.

 

 

This shot shows both of what I think are the weakest and most toylike aspects. The coupler bars seem liable to get lost or broken and must be removed to fit the coaches back in the box. They also mean that the coaches all have to be re-railed together after coupling up which is very fiddly. The other thing, which is very toylike, is the single driven axle where two axles should be, but the side frames disguise this well once on the track. The driven axle is driven by a tiny, single-speed motor powered by a watch battery, although I haven’t been inside to work out how to change the battery yet (I gather that the front bogie lifts out to give access to the battery compartment but didn’t want to break anything by being too hasty). I was expecting lack of traction to be an issue given that only one axle out of eleven is driven, but actually it seems quite smooth and capable. This might change if more coaches were added of course.

 

 

I’m in two minds about what to do with it. On one hand it could potentially be used to construct a 4mm or S scale miniature railway of around 12-15” prototype gauge, or re-bodied in 1:300 scale to represent a UK prototype. However, I quite like it as it is and think that adding larger scale (heavier, less stable) bodies might be pushing the capabilities of the mechanism a bit too far, while I’m unlikely to produce anything reasonable in 1:300 without getting heavily into 3D printing. A small Japanese layout using some of the accessories produced in 1:300 for non-railway (including architects’) models seems like it could be fun at some point (when I have the time). It will probably end up being a bit coarse but no more so than larger scale layouts built to coarse standards.

If its powered by a watch battery....simply take it to the well known cobblers/key cutters shop on the high st ..! Good value for money thay last week quoted my dad 28quid + for a life time warranty battery fitted! What! Not having any of that....Ironically dad got home and watch was now working and still is... shocks work for restarting stuff!...clear! Boom!

[009 micro modeller]

3 hours ago, bradfordbuffer said:

If its powered by a watch battery....simply take it to the well known cobblers/key cutters shop on the high st ..! Good value for money thay last week quoted my dad 28quid + for a life time warranty battery fitted! What! Not having any of that....Ironically dad got home and watch was now working and still is... shocks work for restarting stuff!...clear! Boom!

 

Not absolutely sure it is a watch battery - it’s an LR44, I think used for hearing aids and for some types of watches. Not sure what else it’s used for.

[6990WitherslackHall]

On 13/02/2021 at 19:12, 009 micro modeller said:

It is noticeably larger than T gauge in any case, and having never had much Z gauge I don’t really have a sense of the size compared to that.

 

The (only) curve radius is enormous compared to the gauge, although as with T gauge this may be caused by the limitations of the technology at such a small size.

 

One of the members at the club I went to before That-Which-Shall-Not-be-Named has a T gauge layout. We had it operating on a club open day one time. We had some running difficulties with it (as you do with model railways) but with T gauge it was that small, you couldn't tell if the loco was on the track properly. I've also seen the T gauge layout Forth Bridge operating at a model railway show. It looked absolutely incredible.  

 

 I've posted a pic of my co-member's layout below...