Unconventional scales and/or gauges.

[009 micro modeller]

1 hour ago, 6990WitherslackHall said:

 

One of the members at the club I went to before That-Which-Shall-Not-be-Named has a T gauge layout. We had it operating on a club open day one time. We had some running difficulties with it (as you do with model railways) but with T gauge it was that small, you couldn't tell if the loco was on the track properly. I've also seen the T gauge layout Forth Bridge operating at a model railway show. It looked absolutely incredible.  

 

 I've posted a pic of my co-member's layout below...

 

 

 

 

I do like T gauge, and have even used a bit of it to model a working 0 gauge train set in 1:12 scale (where it is only 4mm over-gauge). I’m not sure whether I’d like to build an actual 1:450 scale layout as I might find it a bit too small. One of the main problems I had with T gauge originally was the amount of fiddling about needed on the track itself (cleaning but also sparingly applying the lubricator pen), to get it to be clean while still allowing the stock to have enough traction, although this has massively improved with the new motors, which are much smoother and more controllable. I could probably improve it even more with a new controller, but the cost isn’t worth it for my current 1:12 scale layout, which only requires a KiHa 40 railcar to run round an oval at a fairly high speed.

 

With the ZZ stuff, partly I’m just interested in it because it’s an unusual scale, and partly because the toylike way it was done is such a different approach to a sub-Z scale model railway when compared with T gauge. In particular the fact that it’s battery-powered may turn out to be an advantage, as well as the larger size (50% larger than T gauge). However, ZZ gauge has a lot of other limitations; as well as how toylike it is, there’s the practical issue of everything being second hand and the rarity in the UK, which often means importing from Japan. Currently, this has made it cost more than originally planned but still a lot less than equivalent T, Z or N gauge stock. I’ve now imported a few more E3 Shinkansen vehicles to go with my original Bandai ZZ set (which came from the UK), which will hopefully allow me to modify the stock to create a passable representation of a full 6-car train. Whether it is suitable for development into a 1:300 scale layout depends on how well this goes.

[009 micro modeller]

On 07/03/2021 at 12:13, 009 micro modeller said:

I do like T gauge, and have even used a bit of it to model a working 0 gauge train set in 1:12 scale (where it is only 4mm over-gauge).

 

This is a picture of it:

 

 

I’m posting again because, taking the ‘unusual scales’ theme even further, it occurs that me that in some ways I should have done this layout in 1:10 scale, rather than 1:12. In 1:12 the gauge is roughly correct for 0 scale (36 rather than 32mm), yet the scale is a bit off (it is either 1:450 or sometimes 1:480 for T gauge, yet should be 1:522 (i.e. 43.5 x 12) for ‘scale’ British 0 gauge. Yet moving up to 1:10 scale it becomes almost exactly right - the gauge is now even closer but is under- rather than over-scale, and the scale ‘scale’ is now either 1:45 or 1:48, absolutely spot on for European or American 0 and much closer for British 0 than before. It’s been a while since I built this layout and I can’t remember if I considered the way that the T gauge train would scale up - I did make sure the gauge was fairly close to a scale 32mm though. In any case, it doesn’t really need overthinking that much and using 1:12 scale meant that I could get slightly more in the space and use dolls’ house items, which I don’t think would be available in 1:10. However, I’ve often thought about doing a follow-up layout modelling an 0 gauge garden railway, again using T gauge stuff to represent a model railway in the same way. Since this would be an outdoor setting, I’m wondering whether the reduced need for furniture and interior fittings would tip the balance towards 1:10 instead of 1:12. What sort of things are available in 1:10?

 

Somebody over on Gnatterbox a few years ago was thinking about doing a 1:6 scale model, on which a T gauge train would have run to represent an 00 model railway (although of course it would actually be closer to EM... ). The scale ‘scale’ of the T gauge stuff would have been very close for 1:76 (6 x 76 = 456) and not particularly correct for 1:87 (same issue as for ‘0 gauge’ in 1:12 scale). While I like the idea of doing this sort of thing with T gauge equipment in 1:12 or 1:10, when the scale gets to be as large as 1:6 it’s perhaps getting a little silly. I didn’t ask if they’d looked into the idea of modelling N gauge in 1:3 scale...  

 

I remember reading about a dolls’ house with an attic layout on Carl Arendt’s site, originally posted many years ago but possibly still viewable now. This pre-dated T gauge and used Z gauge equipment, I think to represent a Gauge 3 layout or some similarly large scale.

[rue_d_etropal]

I think that might have been me on the gNatterbox, as I did have one of the first of the T gauge sets. It almost got more interest than the lyout I was exhibiting at the time!,

I difd not do anything in 1/6, but did build a small layout in 1/12, using the T gauge on model tables, to represent O or G1 .I eventually dismantled it and sold off the T gauge.

 

Another scale/gauge combination might be using the super sharp radius system(Rokuhan) for Z gauge, and use a scale of 1/55 or 5.5mm/ft, as this comes close to15in gauge. I built a small working layout in a cakebox.

 

[009 micro modeller]

2 hours ago, rue_d_etropal said:

I think that might have been me on the gNatterbox, as I did have one of the first of the T gauge sets. It almost got more interest than the lyout I was exhibiting at the time!,

I difd not do anything in 1/6, but did build a small layout in 1/12, using the T gauge on model tables, to represent O or G1 .I eventually dismantled it and sold off the T gauge.

 

As you say, it comes out also being close to Gauge 1 in 1:12 so the visual effect still works. Apologies, my comment that 'when the scale gets to be as large as 1:6 it’s perhaps getting a little silly' was not meant as a serious criticism, but just wondering how far up into larger scales with small gauges it would be possible to go without it becoming difficult to get anything in the space and still create the right effect.

 

1:55 on 6.5mm gauge is an interesting one. I've never seen anyone do anything much with that gauge above 4mm scale, with the exception of 06.5 (7mm scale smaller miniature railways), which oddly does have some limited commercial support from Avalon Line. I don't know if anyone has actually gone through with the idea of 2mm scale with T gauge stuff to represent 18" gauge yet. I always thought that T could be used in 3mm scale to model the 12" gauge  Ruislip Lido Railway, which, helpfully, is mostly Bo-Bo locos hauling bogie stock, though I think I would probably go for either 06.5 or 1:32 scale on 9mm gauge instead, which are more suitable if slightly less accurate. Another one that would be interesting, though a bit larger, would be 16.5mm gauge in 16mm scale - I think there is now a company producing freelance kits for this combination.

[Victorian]

On 22/12/2020 at 16:24, Timber said:

I am an S Scale modeller but want to build a Gauge 2 garden railway so that I can run this beautiful loco I aquired a few years back.

 

If anyone models in Gauge 2 I would be keen to hear their experiences....

 

I'm sorry to come late to the party, but I've only just found this thread!

 

That George is magnificent, so much so that you think "It must have been restored" but no, some treasured items actually have survived in that condition all the way down to the present. That one looks pretty original to me, although there have been some very clever restorations....

 

Regarding running the engine, you are into track building whatever you do. I was fortunate to acquire a decent amount of Bonds pre-war G3 rail, which is very similar to modern code 332 as used by LGB et al. I used hardwood sleepers and thousands of self-tapping screws to clip the foot of the rail. With only 1/4" between G2 and G1, dual gauge is difficult and pointwork risky from the de-railment point of view. I built to 10' radius for the Carson loco in my clip mentioned above and have run the coarsest of early G2 stock on it.

 

It says something about Edwardian period steam locos like the Carson Precursor that after a year of running G2, every tenth sleeper on average is charred by a meths fire. The track itself has survived it's first winter without issue.

 

Regarding 3 rail, you do have a choice because modern LiPo batteries like the 18650 have adequate power for most of these older motors. It would be most interesting to see a pic of your mechanism in this regard. I believe my Lipo powered ex 3 rail locos perform as well, or better, than ther did originally and with several hours battery life it's lot more convenient than maintaining continuity on an outdoor 3 rail set-up. (All these locos are converted to battery R/C without any holes being drilled or mechanisms butchered.)

 

Here's the 1910 Bing LNWR Bowen Cook 4-6-2 tank running on LiPo power with a set of Carette bogie coaches. As I've said elsewhere, this is the smallest scale where you actually feel the train coming through vibrations in the ground!

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/p20ldn08qmgiarx/V_20210404_163508_vHDR_Auto.mp4?dl=0

 

 

Welcome to the chunky world of G2! David

 

[Timber]

Fantastic thank you! - the loco is non restored I picked it up at auction for as modest price compared to a Gauge 1 equivalent.....

[009 micro modeller]

19 hours ago, Victorian said:

All these locos are converted to battery R/C without any holes being drilled or mechanisms butchered.

 

I’m unlikely to get into gauge 2 any time soon (it looks lovely but I don’t have the space) but out of interest how do you do the conversions without this? I would have thought some modifications would need to be made to fit batteries.

[Victorian]

Hi

 

If you look toward the end of the thread 'Playing with an old train set' (Sorry, I don't know how to link to this directly) you can see how the batteries and electronics were fitted in without disturbing the original, other than removing the skate. The crucial part is to have a radio with an extendended antenna, because radio signals don't propagate well inside metal locomotives!

 

Reference the George, I have the Gauge 1 version in a similar state of finish which also may be original. It's run for some time with Lipo batteries as discussed above and unfortunately picked up a few scratches after plummeting off a high level track into a thorn bush!

 

David

 

[Timber]

Once again not so much an unconventional scale but one that is not as popular as others.....this is my latest S Scale locomotive.  Full details in the S Scale forum.

[AndyH]

On 23/10/2020 at 13:50, rocor said:

 

I have not attempted it, but have considered it. Since acquiring the book ' The Royal Arsenal Railways' by Mark Smithers, I have been considering building a small layout loosely based based upon a small section of the Royal Arsenal's 18" gauge railway. My musing have taken on everything between 7mm scale/10.5mm gauge to 1/10th scale /gauge 1.

Similar thoughts, as am slowly working at 12mm/ft (1:24.5?) as it makes sense to me! Large enough to represent a high level of detail, small enough to be manageable. Also in terms of materials, easy to work to scale too.

[Victorian]

Hello again. Here's some more Gauge 2 news:

 

In 1910, Mr WH Jubb built a 2" gauge freelance Atlantic for his layout 'Greystones', residing in a spare bedroom in Mr Jubb's house in Sheffield. We know this because he wrote it up in Henry Greenly's "Models, Locomotives and Railways". The Atlantic must have been modestly successful (perhaps he sold it?) because in 1911 he produced a second one, also described in Greenly's journal.

 

It is this second Atlantic that has come, via a long chain of fortuitous co-incidences, into my care. And here it is, running in full cry in April, 2021, 110 years after it was built.

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/bfcbsc4kn2jnmfn/V_20210424_142804_vHDR_Auto.mp4?dl=0

 

Please believe me, it was worth building a gauge 2 track just to see this! 

 

The Jubb Atlantic is unusual amongst early model locos in that not only do we have an account of it's construction, but also a report (probably written by Greenly) of it's performance! Writing in 1912, an article in ML&R said that this loco had run on test with a scale load of 147 tons for 18 1/2 minutes covering 63 laps of a 53' track at an average speed of 2-3 mph. Is that a challenge or what?

 

It's taken quite a while to get the Atlantic 'on form'. It is well worn and has loose driving wheels that have been secured more than once by drilling and tapping 1/8" Whitworth screws into the gap between wheel and axle - no doubt an original fault due to Mr Jubb boring the wheels slightly oversize. The original Asbestos wicks had been discarded although the original burner survives, itself a rarity amongst early models. And the fuel feed involves an open sump under the cab with a drip feed regulated by a simple and very loose and inaccessible  plug cock.

 

After a lot of experimentation, it turned out that rolled up stainless mesh is the best substitute for Asbestos. And a modern globe valve regulates fuel flow without vibrating full open and setting fire to the track and loco! With these tiny concessions to the modern world, the Jubb was performing well, but could it repeat it's exploit of so long ago? In the meantime, I'd acquired a rake of superb wood construction Gauge 2 bogie coaches, themselves built closer to 1/2" scale than 7/16", just like Mr Jubb's locomotive. And at 7 scale tons / lb weight, they make a train weight similar to that in Greenly's report.

 

In the video, you can see the Atlantic making one lap in about 30 secs. The distance is about 80 feet and the train ran for 20 mins, closely matching it's own 1912 record of 3,300' or 2/3 mile with a run of 3200' 109 years later.

 

 

Actually, I'm confident that it can break it's own record....

 

Incidentally, does anyone recognise those coaches? They are GW 'Toplight' style from the 1904-1908 period, but most likely built after 1930 when the Brittains introduced the cast lead flowers and pots which grace the dining car tables!

 

Any information welcome. Thanks, David

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 20, 2021 by Victorian

[009 micro modeller]

Another interesting scale/gauge combination that occurs to me is related to Gn15. For industrial prototypes this is usually a bit too narrow, and about a decade ago Trevor Coburn on Gnatterbox was building a layout using EM (18.2mm) gauge track in about 1:24 scale to give a closer match to 18” gauge. But what about using US 0n3 (3/4” gauge) stuff? This would give exactly the right track gauge in 1:24 (though if it was me I’d be going for the visual effect of the wider gauge - I’d not be very bothered about it being ‘finescale’). Is there much American 0n3 stuff (wheels, point kits/templates etc.) available? I know American 00 (19mm) is very close but that’s probably even rarer, especially in the UK.

 

Similarly, S gauge track could possibly be used. I don’t know if there’s a particular “standard” for 21mm gauge in any scale but this would also work quite nicely to represent a 50cm gauge line (but at that stage you’re roughly at the point where using 16.5mm in 1:32 or 10mm scale gives about the same result). Again, I’m not looking at it from a finescale perspective but more to better represent a slightly wider gauge than 15” (ideally 18” or more but less than 2’) and wondering if there’s anything to be gained from using an established standard rather than just laying track to a unique gauge.

[eldomtom2]

Precisely how "scale" they are may be questioned, but Sarissa Precision's range of trains and track for 28mm scale wargaming is certainly unconventional.

 

 

[009 micro modeller]

3 hours ago, eldomtom2 said:

Precisely how "scale" they are may be questioned, but Sarissa Precision's range of trains and track for 28mm scale wargaming is certainly unconventional.

 

 

 

Any idea what gauge these are?

[Binky]

On 01/04/2021 at 00:38, 009 micro modeller said:

 I’ve often thought about doing a follow-up layout modelling an 0 gauge garden railway, again using T gauge stuff to represent a model railway in the same way. Since this would be an outdoor setting, I’m wondering whether the reduced need for furniture and interior fittings would tip the balance towards 1:10 instead of 1:12. What sort of things are available in 1:10?

The 1:10 scale radio control car scene are quite into scale garages and accessories so a 1:10 scale garage/garden shed/garden would be do-able using parts sold for those folks. A google search brings up plenty of photos showing what's possible although just like model railways the examples can range from rather toy-like to very realistic.

[eldomtom2]

2 hours ago, 009 micro modeller said:

 

Any idea what gauge these are?

I believe somewhere around 50mm (the website quotes a width of approx. 55mm, which presumely includes the sleepers), so much wider than a scale standard gauge.

[Victorian]

Here's the Gauge 2 layout running in public for the first time at Northampton's Abington Park Museum last weekend. This is actually the G1MRA vintage Group layout set up by Stuart Rose (centre in Blue shirt) with the G2 running as the outside track using contemporary Bassett Lowke 'hollow rail' brass track, some of which is brand new and unused, All this track came to me courtesy of Ned Williams, who previously ran a G2 track at the Large Scale show at the Fosse.

 

 

Here's a shameless plug for a live running of G2 with the same layout this weekend at the Rushden Historical Society RHTS, Saturday and Sunday 18th and Sunday 19th September in the restored goods shed at Rushden Station, Northants NN10 0AW .

 

(Everything's a 'first' in G2: First public running of R/C trains in G2 - first use of LiPo batteries in G2 - etc. etc.). And the kids like the 'Chunky' trains!

 

 

[ianb3174]

I’ve built some 3ft gauge in S using 14.2mm gauge. 

[Florence Locomotive Works]

Hi guys,

 

I may have posted this here before but I am currently engaged in constructing the first gauge 2 engine made since the  1940s, and the first this century.

 

It has no real prototype, and combines the look of many different engines from the 1850s to the 1910s. The wood paneled cab and wheels for example lend themselves much to the ornamental American 4-4-0s of the civil war era, and the nose and streamlined boiler fittings come from a French PLM Railway C class “Coupé Vent” engine from 1894. The chimney is of uk design, and the livery is early broad gauge era GWR.

 

It just had the first two bogie wheels machined today. 90% of the engine is built from scratch.