RMweb Premium Andy Kirkham Posted September 20, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted September 20, 2020 This photo from the Isengard website show Merddin Emrys and David Lloyd George together at Harbour Station They are clearly painted different shades of red- DLG being more brick red than indian red Looking in Little Giants by Chris Jones & Peter Dennis, I see no mention of any red other than indian red. Does DLG's shade have a historical precedent, or is it a caprice of the preservation era? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bomag Posted September 21, 2020 Share Posted September 21, 2020 Yes it was historically accurate for the date of the photo . Given the loco was built in 1992 even if was 'Indian' red it would have not have been actuate for 1879-1946. On a more technical side, the chemicals used in colours in the late C19 and early C20 (man made or natural) were much less UV fixed so they would have faded much quicker and, while they may not be as dark as DLG, you would have had a mixed bag of shades. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidB Posted September 21, 2020 Share Posted September 21, 2020 That’s a gorgeous photo. I’m not sure how helpful the following quotes will be, but ex-FR General Manager Gordon Ruston’s recent FR & WHR stockbook Ffestiniog Finery states that DLG’s “rather strange nickname of The Soup Dragon came about through the locomotive’s rather unusual colour, a terracotta red (said to be an original FR colour). Always likely to be a matter of contention, it is alleged that the colour has a negligible effect upon locomotive performance”. David Payling’s excellent book Fairlie Locomotives of North Wales of a couple of years ago states that DLG was repainted in 2015, “the details representing the results of research at Boston Lodge into the railway’s Victorian livery and lining”. David 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Andy Kirkham Posted September 21, 2020 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted September 21, 2020 The crux of my question is whether the pre-preservation FfR changed the formulation of its red paint at some time, or whether the two reds currently on show represent two different attempts to reproduce the same historical shade. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidB Posted September 22, 2020 Share Posted September 22, 2020 (edited) David Payling’s book has an appendix on the liveries carried by the FR Fairlies. He states that, In the absence of colour photographs or other evidence, the FR collection in the Gwynedd Archives has been searched for documentary evidence of the paints purchased by the FR for use on rolling stock. The documents from 1889, 1896 and 1899 apparently give very similar lists, including red lead paint, Indian red paint and two kinds of varnish. Payling’s conclusion is that the paint for engines, including the Fairlies, was most likely to have been Indian red, but how that colour relates to today’s pigments is unknown, along with the effects of time and weathering on appearance. He adds that “the growing knowledge of the old company’s lining style has allowed painting and lining practices to become steadily more authentic”. DLG, Merddin Emrys and Taliesin currently all have different shades of red, with Taliesin’s changing in 2015 from a deep Victorian maroon similar to ME’s livery to a lighter and richer shade described as “Fairlie engine maroon”. All of which is a long-winded way of saying that it looks as if the FR company is not trying to recreate the same historical shade, because they recognise that nobody knows what it looked like. But they are using the archive records to get as close as they can to the overall appearance of the old liveries. If 19th century red paint faded in service like my brother-in-law’s 1990’s Vauxhall, the range of colours used across Taliesin, DLG and ME is probably as authentic as you’re going to get. And as a matter of interest, I’ve just noticed in the Isengard photo that both DLG and ME appear to have gained Triang style boiler skirts just behind the smoke box. Any idea why they’ve been added? Some kind of splasher perhaps? David Edited September 22, 2020 by DavidB 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GlennW Posted September 23, 2020 Share Posted September 23, 2020 Merddin Emrys and Taliesin are now both in the same shade of red along with Palmerston. This colour has been nixed by us based on archive evidence and from what the local used to describe the colour as, in this case Ruabon brick red. Prince and Princess are also in a shade that almost exactly the same. David Lloyd George is also in a colour mixed by us but is the colour that was perceived as correct almost 30 years ago now. We now know this to be incorrect from the evidence we have but it'd be boring if all the engines were the same ;o) and hence at its last repaint we kept it the same. We do know that the original colour of ME was green with rounded corner lining. Glenn 6 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Andy Kirkham Posted September 23, 2020 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted September 23, 2020 12 hours ago, DavidB said: And as a matter of interest, I’ve just noticed in the Isengard photo that both DLG and ME appear to have gained Triang style boiler skirts just behind the smoke box. Any idea why they’ve been added? Some kind of splasher perhaps? Photos show that ME had these pre-preservation. They are referred to in Little Giants as splashers. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Andy Kirkham Posted September 23, 2020 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted September 23, 2020 2 hours ago, GlennW said: Merddin Emrys and Taliesin are now both in the same shade of red along with Palmerston. This colour has been nixed by us based on archive evidence and from what the local used to describe the colour as, in this case Ruabon brick red. Prince and Princess are also in a shade that almost exactly the same. David Lloyd George is also in a colour mixed by us but is the colour that was perceived as correct almost 30 years ago now. We now know this to be incorrect from the evidence we have but it'd be boring if all the engines were the same ;o) and hence at its last repaint we kept it the same. We do know that the original colour of ME was green with rounded corner lining. Glenn Thanks. That is just the sort of answer I was after. Are you in a position to say what the livery of James Spooner will be? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben B Posted September 23, 2020 Share Posted September 23, 2020 3 hours ago, Andy Kirkham said: Thanks. That is just the sort of answer I was after. Are you in a position to say what the livery of James Spooner will be? Would a historical livery be used, or would the opportunity be taken to try a 'new' livery, or with lining? Have the Fairlies traditionally been red or green? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nearholmer Posted September 23, 2020 Share Posted September 23, 2020 54 minutes ago, Ben B said: Have the Fairlies traditionally been red or green? Yes. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PenrithBeacon Posted September 23, 2020 Share Posted September 23, 2020 Because of the variety of colour schemes on show at the Ffestiniog, not just the reds, I came to the conclusion a number of years ago that the railway didn't have a corporate scheme but was commemorating the variety of pre-group railways that served mid and north Wales. Clearly I was wrong, or was I? Cheers Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Andy Kirkham Posted September 23, 2020 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted September 23, 2020 (edited) In Little Giants the following sequence of liveries is postulated: The original livery of the Small Englands is unknown but might have been royal blue as this was George England's default livery Green was adopted for all locos in the 1860's. From the mid-1880s, Indian Red was adopted. From the early 1930s green was the usual livery with exceptions - Welsh Pony being light blue and Prince "Bright Brown" In the Garraway era all locos were strictly green Subseqently native Ffr locos have generally been red, while Linda & Blanche and Earl of Merioneth remained green except when Linda was dark blue for a while (no historical precedent but looked nice) Edited September 23, 2020 by Andy Kirkham Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PenrithBeacon Posted September 23, 2020 Share Posted September 23, 2020 But post Garraway and from my observations over the last 15 years or so, the reds seemed to be Furness and North Staffs (both of which could be seen on the C&H), then there was LNW blackberry black fully lined out, and a nice shade of green which I took to be indigenous. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Andy Kirkham Posted September 23, 2020 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted September 23, 2020 5 minutes ago, PenrithBeacon said: But post Garraway and from my observations over the last 15 years or so, the reds seemed to be Furness and North Staffs (both of which could be seen on the C&H), then there was LNW blackberry black fully lined out, and a nice shade of green which I took to be indigenous. I imagine the black one would be Lilla, which would have been wearing the authentic livery of the Penrhyn Quarry where it used to work. And as Glenn explained, the various reds are different attempts to recreate the livery of the old Ffr. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PenrithBeacon Posted September 23, 2020 Share Posted September 23, 2020 To the best of my recollection I've never seen Lilla Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Andy Kirkham Posted September 23, 2020 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted September 23, 2020 21 minutes ago, PenrithBeacon said: To the best of my recollection I've never seen Lilla Perhaps Sgt Murphy or Hugh Napier - both ex-Penrhyn. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PenrithBeacon Posted September 23, 2020 Share Posted September 23, 2020 Linda or Blanche is a better bet, never heard or seen the others you mention. Enough of that, I'm getting the impression that my conclusions about Ffestiniog liveries were wrong! Cheers Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul.Uni Posted September 23, 2020 Share Posted September 23, 2020 Linda was Blue in the early 90s and Penrhyn Black in the late 90s & 00s, before going into FR green. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold papagolfjuliet Posted September 2, 2023 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 2, 2023 A sneak peak here of James Spooner II in 'Victorian Plum' livery, as currently carried by Welsh Pony. Also a first sighting of the FfR's two new battery electric locos. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold papagolfjuliet Posted October 3, 2023 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 3, 2023 James Spooner was out and about on test yesterday, and a screengrab from the Minffordd webcam has been posted on Isengard. http://www.isengard.co.uk/images/JS_F&WHR2-10-23B.png 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteamLance Posted October 6, 2023 Share Posted October 6, 2023 Nice to know Prince was brown at one point, gives a reason for Awdry's "Duke" to be in brown Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowan Posted November 23, 2023 Share Posted November 23, 2023 Hi Guys, A bit of pre-planning here. Can anyone kindly point be in the direction of a list of FR locos operating in about 1910? In about a year's time (God willing) I will be starting an 009 model loosely based on the FR. I plan to have 2 locos, one pulling coaches and the other slate and returning with general freight. I am considering Machmann's Fairlie for the passenger train but am confused over the colour - maroon or green? I would like to use a non-Fairlie for the slate/goods train, DCC ready preferably. Any suggestions? The time period for the model is 1910ish so I can use surplus figures, etc. from my current 00 gauge model which is similarly set in the Edwardian era. Cheers. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold mcowgill Posted November 23, 2023 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 23, 2023 (edited) It looks like all the remaining locomotives were in traffic at some point in 1910 and they would all have been in red/maroon livery. Small Englands: Princess, Prince & Palmerston Large Englands: Welsh Pony & Little Giant Note that the forthcoming Kato models are undersized and have the Small England wheelbase and cab Single Fairlie: Taliesin Double Fairlies: James Spooner, Merddin Emrys & Livingston Thompson At this time Prince still had a simple arc smokebox handrail like Princess & Palmerston as modelled by Kato on Princess. The wrap round handrail was acquired in 1913 when the smokebox off Welsh Pony was used. Palmerston re-entered service in 1910 after an overhaul started in 1907. Note that Palmerston's cab is shorter than Princess & Prince, Kato's forthcoming model will be incorrect in this respect. Welsh Pony was taken out of service in 1910 and did not return until 1915. The James Spooner of this period is of course not the same as the recent new loco. By 1907 it had been rebuilt to be visually similar to Merddin Emrys & Livingston Thompson but was shorter and had bogies with a smaller wheelbase. Martin Edited November 23, 2023 by mcowgill typo Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BernardTPM Posted November 24, 2023 Share Posted November 24, 2023 On 23/11/2023 at 09:21, mcowgill said: The James Spooner of this period is of course not the same as the recent new loco. By 1907 it had been rebuilt to be visually similar to Merddin Emrys & Livingston Thompson but was shorter and had bogies with a smaller wheelbase. Martin Yes, the bogies had 4' 6" w.b. against 4' 8" and a total wheelbase of 18' 8" against 20'. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowan Posted November 25, 2023 Share Posted November 25, 2023 Many thanks, guys, for the extremely useful information. Does anyone have any feedback on the Peco 'Prince' and 'Princess' locos? Cheers, Rowan. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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