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Very good points Nearholmer.

 

Another concern for me, as both someone accomodating a home worker in my house and a customer of various financial institutions, is data security; How can any company guarantee that an employee working for home does not have confidential phone calls overheard by other person(s) in the house, intentionally or otherwise, or that the IT equipment they use is not hacked or misused ?

 

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The company I used to work for up until mid May when I was made redundant are going to invoke the mid lease break clause and ask all of the surviving employees to work from home permanently, they are so scared for their jobs they will agree, whether it is good for them physically, mentally or financially.

 

An example I can cite from personal experience and I am sure this must not be unique.

 

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In my area (admittedly a VERY different pitch to UK) there were already worries about city centre office revenue. That trend looks to be cemented by the current Covid restrictions. 

 

Despite the comparatively low rate of infection, the office workforce seems petrified of even leaving home. Retail numbers are down and online purchases are significantly up, but the commute here is completely different.  Out here on the Prairies we don't have any passenger trains, and in Calgary there is limited tram availability and a very suburban bus service.

 

Lessons around the world need to be learnt before leaping into new franchise structures and new Govt spending.

 

Before paying for a reduction in season ticket revenue, the 'Western World has got to work out how to pay for furlough and equivalent, and for a testing and treatment regime. 

 

Covid has not settled yet, the future is as ever, unknown...

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14 hours ago, 62613 said:

Would anyone working from home become liable to be charged a portion of business rates?

 

No, and in fact they can claim some income tax relief as per this link

 

https://www.gov.uk/tax-relief-for-employees/working-at-home

 

No brainer really, like the high street, the move will be towards the internet way of working things

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On 17/09/2020 at 17:57, steve45 said:

The company I used to work for up until mid May when I was made redundant are going to invoke the mid lease break clause and ask all of the surviving employees to work from home permanently, they are so scared for their jobs they will agree, whether it is good for them physically, mentally or financially.

 

And the next step will be to make them all redundant and hire them back as individual contractors to reduce the legal liability.

 

Whether it be the previous mentioned pet, or something like carpal tunnel, the danger is the threat of legal action which means businesses are going to see their insurance rates increase (whether the result of a lawsuit or the insurance companies seeing the suits coming in advance).

 

It will be interesting.

 

On 18/09/2020 at 06:46, steve45 said:

No, and in fact they can claim some income tax relief as per this link

 

https://www.gov.uk/tax-relief-for-employees/working-at-home

 

Take advantage while you can - at some point the dramatic increase in home workers paying less tax combined with businesses paying less tax as they shed floor space will force the government's hand.

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On 17/09/2020 at 18:31, Nearholmer said:

 

 

And, there is a big issue that will surface about the mental wellbeing of people working isolated from their colleagues - it can cause serious mental helth issues for some people.

 

*Buying a house with an extra study/bedroom to permit dedicated use for WFH is an expensive business, and it can push on into a new council tax band for instance.


WFH isnt a prison, or solitary confinement.

WFH is a very good excuse to meet thy neighbours.


The whole tax thing is a mess, our street identical houses. Our neighbour built an extension, converted his garage and loft. Yet despite adding 4 usable rooms to his property, his council tax band is actually 1 lower than the whole rest of the street !

 

As for paying for covid.. you cant tax what people don't have. This will be a 100 year bond, inflated away,  paid for in interest payments until its no longer relevent. Compared to the USD salaries in the UK are nearly 60% less than they were in 2007, no wonder the US invests here, were cheaper than almost all the Anglo speaking world, bar South Africa. If the UK continues the next decade the same way it has the last, i’d expect the country to issue a “new pound” and new denomination devaluing out £ &p, just as with decimalisation as a big hit way of walking out on its debts.

 

Edited by adb968008
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My office already had 6 desks for every 10 staff so have been trying to get us to wfh for years; the difference has been now everyone has had to wfh the paranoia and assumptions about our productivity have gone.  There are people who want to return full time, and people like me who would happily go in 1-3 a week and wfh the rest of it.

 

I’d still have to commute on office days, if the train company let me buy a ticket that was good for 10 trips useable over up to 6 weeks that would be ideal. If not I’d just go in less, or go in off-peak to my pre-booked desk...

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10 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

WFH isnt a prison, or solitary confinement.

WFH is a very good excuse to meet thy neighbours


For many, yes. But for a few, working in isolation is something that tips them into a very bad place mentally. Fact.
 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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8 hours ago, Nearholmer said:


For many, yes. But for a few, working in isolation is something that tips them into a very bad place mentally. Fact.

 

Ive had a conference call with my knees in a swimming pool with a cocktail in my hand before now... tell me thats bad for my mental health.

 

The statement means little, other than to bias a view point, without any “facts” to support the fact... numbers please.. 1,10,100 or just point aimed at trying to make something miserable that doesn't need to be,.

 

I dont think anyone is forced to work in isolation.. people can work where ever they like.. WFH doesnt mean your forced to sit in a wet mildewy cellar.. A field, bench, park, coffee shop, bakery, pub, restaurant, golf course...


Wfh gives people a chance to make employment how they would like it, which as an alternative isnt a black and white choice... they can chose to go back to the office...  covid has opened eyes about work.. and no matter how bad you try to portray it, the genie aint going back in the bottle.

 

Edited by adb968008
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ADB

 

you seem to be leaping from me pointing out that WFH can have negative mental health affects for some people, which is a fact, to an assumption that somehow I’m attacking the concept of WFH, which at no point have I done.
 

All I’ve done is point out that a lot of people have had to default to WFH I short order, and that as a society we will need to sort-out (or sweep under the carpet at our peril) the un-thought-through consequences of that.

 

Intro to the mental health questions here https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.ft.com/content/315095c0-7da0-11ea-8fdb-7ec06edeef84

 

At the moment, the mental affects of WFH are possibly inextricable from the mental affects of living through a pandemic, which sure as heck aren’t wonderful, so we need to get to ‘normal times’ to really see things clearly.

 

The CBI are beginning to get their heads round this now and are talking about a future best practice model that allows people to choose whether to WFH or to go to an office, by having firms continue to provide Some office space. But, as is the way of the world, not all firms will be interested in best practice - that tends to be the province of firms that operate ‘high end’ using hard to find/retain staff.

 

Where is the bias in what I’m saying?

 

K


 

 

 

Edited by Nearholmer
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I agree good employers will offer a mix of home working and office attendance/space. The office could change into a more collaborative workplace with some hotdesking at well. However both of those will be dependent on a post Covid or at least a Covid vaccine world.

 

However I already know of a few employers who have closed their offices for good and moved to home working only. Capita is the big name one who I think are closing 30%. However in the area I am familiar with that is in fact 100% so staff don't have a choice.

 

My workplace will be scaling back unnecessary on site attendance in the coming days and weeks unless some how we don't see the predicted rise. 

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4 hours ago, adb968008 said:

I dont think anyone is forced to work in isolation.. people can work where ever they like.. WFH doesnt mean your forced to sit in a wet mildewy cellar.. A field, bench, park, coffee shop, bakery, pub, restaurant, golf course...

 

When in his office my son, who deals with confidential customer details and financial information, was not allowed to have his mobile phone at his desk, or even paper and pens. His employer now has no control over his work environment, whatsoever, but the rest of the family stays downstairs when he is working, so yes, he most certainly is forced to work in isolation, and cannot possibly work 'wherever he likes'. And he's not a particularly sociable animal anyway, so the loss of interraction with his work colleagues is, IMHO, detrimental. 

 

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The best we can do so far to see what level WFH will eventually reach is look at the "what are you likely to do?" surveys being carried out by a number of institutions. These seem to suggest that a mix of home and office working will be the future, with previously 4 or 5 days per week commuters reducing their trips to 2 or 3 days a week.

 

Employers will have to assess what effects this will have on their business with regards to productivity but, again, they have little data so far (the usefulness of WFH during a pandemic might be different once normality resumes; there are a few businesses I'm avoiding as their WFH model is of no use to my needs).

 

In terms of the railway, it has carried on largely untouched during recent financial downturns, but I'd be very surprised if this is the case this time. 

 

An announcement on the Emergency Measures Agreements following government/TOC discussions is due either tonight or tomorrow morning, as the original ones expire today.

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Somebody has raised the issue of council tax and HMRC allowances.  Before you go down this route be aware that when (IF?) you sell your main residence, you get exemption from capital gains tax (Currently 40% of profit).  If you claim business use relief, then this can/will be used to claw back some of that relief.  i.e. it may cost you more than you have gained.  Don't ask me to work out some figures as it is 53 years since I did 'O' level maths.  

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7 hours ago, caradoc said:

 

When in his office my son, who deals with confidential customer details and financial information, was not allowed to have his mobile phone at his desk, or even paper and pens. His employer now has no control over his work environment, whatsoever, but the rest of the family stays downstairs when he is working, so yes, he most certainly is forced to work in isolation, and cannot possibly work 'wherever he likes'. And he's not a particularly sociable animal anyway, so the loss of interraction with his work colleagues is, IMHO, detrimental. 

 

If his employer has no control why does his family have to remain downstairs? I think the employer is OTT and I would be looking for another position if I was in that situation

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55 minutes ago, CEINEWYDD said:

Somebody has raised the issue of council tax and HMRC allowances.  Before you go down this route be aware that when (IF?) you sell your main residence, you get exemption from capital gains tax (Currently 40% of profit).  If you claim business use relief, then this can/will be used to claw back some of that relief.  i.e. it may cost you more than you have gained.  Don't ask me to work out some figures as it is 53 years since I did 'O' level maths.  

The WFH allowance is an additional personal allowance you can claim, nothing to do with a business allowances.

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7 hours ago, caradoc said:

 

When in his office my son, who deals with confidential customer details and financial information, was not allowed to have his mobile phone at his desk, or even paper and pens. His employer now has no control over his work environment, whatsoever, but the rest of the family stays downstairs when he is working, so yes, he most certainly is forced to work in isolation, and cannot possibly work 'wherever he likes'. And he's not a particularly sociable animal anyway, so the loss of interraction with his work colleagues is, IMHO, detrimental. 

 

 

2 minutes ago, steve45 said:

If his employer has no control why does his family have to remain downstairs? I think the employer is OTT and I would be looking for another position if I was in that situation

It's not uncommon for people doing sensitive work or dealing with the general public whilst working from home to have to be isolated from others in the house.

 

My wife works for the NHS and I work in Software development - we work in seperate rooms from home - when she is on a call she shuts the door so her conversation isn't audible, though generally I have no idea what is going on due to the headphones and you tube mixes I have on.

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Following from what Ceinewydd was saying regarding Capital Gains Tax, I believe he is correct that any changes in the nature of your home from pure residential to another sort (in rating terms) MAY well make you liable to pay some or all the CGT due. AIUI, the exception from paying CGT occurs when you use any gains from the sale wholly in the purchasing of another property - and be grateful in the UK, 'cos over here in France you pay CGT when you sell up regardless of whether you buy some other property or not. (The rate is reduced gradually depending how long you've had the property - after 30 years it becomes 0%).

 

BTW, DO keep bills that you may have IF you've had any work done to enable WFH, as these can be used to offset any tax liabilities.

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

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I don't think WFH directly affects council tax if/while you are an employee of a business based elsewhere, but possibly does if you are self-employed  https://www.gov.uk/introduction-to-business-rates/working-at-home although TBH I'm not totally sure, so don't take my reading as gospel.

 

The reason I dragged council tax into this earlier wasn't actually the direct affect, but the indirect affect on how much council tax you pay if you have to buy a bigger house in order to secure a room to use for WFH and that bigger house is "in the next band up".

 

Should we migrate all this WFH discussion into its own thread?

 

 

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13 hours ago, adb968008 said:

I dont think anyone is forced to work in isolation.. people can work where ever they like.. WFH doesnt mean your forced to sit in a wet mildewy cellar.. A field, bench, park, coffee shop, bakery, pub, restaurant, golf course...

 

I would challenge this.  In my previous career in the defence industry, had I been found to have viewed (and the IT had allowed me to view) the sort of Restricted material I worked on at any of the locations you've listed, I would have quickly been looking forward to a career outside the defence industry.

 

I have no spare room in this house and nowhere to erect a permanent desk in a room away from everyone (there seems to be an assumption from lots of well-paid journos that all middle class people live in 4-bedroom houses in North London) so until the schools went back, my "office desk" has been on our dining table, while everyone else continues their life around me.  A colleague recently described Home Working in Lockdown as "A Luxury of the Middle-Classes"; he's dead right.  There are huge numbers of the population whose jobs cannot be done from home.  They aren't working from home, they're furloughed and probably waiting nervously for when their employer tells them enough is enough, everyone is being made redundant.

 

That aside, it's remarkable, I've read more common sense analysis of the impact of the pandemic on the world of work on this thread, than I have seen/heard/read in all the professional media in the last six months.

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1 hour ago, woodenhead said:

 

It's not uncommon for people doing sensitive work or dealing with the general public whilst working from home to have to be isolated from others in the house.

 

My wife works for the NHS and I work in Software development - we work in seperate rooms from home - when she is on a call she shuts the door so her conversation isn't audible, though generally I have no idea what is going on due to the headphones and you tube mixes I have on.


My brother-in-law works for one of the embassies, he has a board that he must do all his work on at home because the board is symbolically part of the country he works for.  I have to have my headphones on and the door/window shut for some calls (and I’ve got one of those screen covers that stops people reading over my shoulder), but other things I’m fine to work in the garden for - it’s interesting to see how different industries have adapted.  We don’t have any meeting rooms big enough to safely hold more than 4/5 people, so all meetings will be online even after more people go back in.

 

One thing my place are doing is risk assessments to see if they can get the people who really feel isolated in first; someone I’m buddied with went back in the first wave and found it worse bringing the only person on the floor.


I was on the Southern train on the West London Line last week in the evening peak and there was 1 person per six-seat bay, even with masks on people didn’t want to share - maybe too many seats are provided now? You could get more people on the train with airline style seats in twos

 

 

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2 hours ago, steve45 said:

If his employer has no control why does his family have to remain downstairs? I think the employer is OTT and I would be looking for another position if I was in that situation

 

Which is exactly a way of people looking at things that might not make WFH quite as viable as people think. Just because work is being done in someone's home doesn't mean that some sort of "human rights on my soil" claim now overrides the need to protect sensitive data and so on.

 

As always with such a huge change in the way things are done, there are so many issues to be properly worked through. It's inevitable though that various protocol breaches will come to light in the near future, given the rush to WFH in March.

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I think it more than just a middle class thing, I think it also comes with age.

 

When we moved to our present home 8 years ago we had the luxury of an extra room on the ground floor which was to be the dumping room and a railway room for me.  I wasn't working from home full time at the beginning but soon realised I could slot in a desk with a screen, which became two screens plus my laptop and my days of commuting were over apart from business travel to Cumbria or south.

 

The little room was great but I never felt I could leave it with the window open at it was at the front of the house so when my eldest child moved out in 2019 I took his room as my new layout room / office - bigger desk and luxury of open windows and a view as it is on the second floor.

 

Having worked from home for 6+ years now this pandemic has seen other people mimic my lifestyle but I've had the time to get used to the isolation, if anything, the pandemic has brought the people who used to see each other in the office into my world and have to be more online.

 

But I am aware that it's not ideal for everyone, some people were stuck in bits of their house or their bedroom because their house was full or it was their parents - for them reopening the offices has to be a priority and my company is now beginning down that road, but we all have options, we are neither forced to the office nor discouraged from going in.

 

In terms of using your house as an office - don't set aside a room to be the office and nothing else, that's when it starts to become a business space, as long as it remains shared then no CGT concerns - mine remains a railway room with a desk in it where I also play games on my personal laptop.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Northmoor said:

 

I would challenge this.  In my previous career in the defence industry, had I been found to have viewed (and the IT had allowed me to view) the sort of Restricted material I worked on at any of the locations you've listed, I would have quickly been looking forward to a career outside the defence industry.

 

I have no spare room in this house and nowhere to erect a permanent desk in a room away from everyone (there seems to be an assumption from lots of well-paid journos that all middle class people live in 4-bedroom houses in North London) so until the schools went back, my "office desk" has been on our dining table, while everyone else continues their life around me.  A colleague recently described Home Working in Lockdown as "A Luxury of the Middle-Classes"; he's dead right.  There are huge numbers of the population whose jobs cannot be done from home.  They aren't working from home, they're furloughed and probably waiting nervously for when their employer tells them enough is enough, everyone is being made redundant.

 

That aside, it's remarkable, I've read more common sense analysis of the impact of the pandemic on the world of work on this thread, than I have seen/heard/read in all the professional media in the last six months.

So maybe for you, WFH is not the best choice.


As I’ve said all through it’s not for everyone.

But before COVID, they didn’t know it was possible, things changed, they now have a choice.

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