Use of MK1 types on branchlines 1950-70

[MoarCrossovers]

I am hoping that someone will help me out.

 

I have a layout in the works depicting a small branchline terminus during the period of transition when BR introduced diesels and branchlines were getting the axe.

 

For this, some of the rolling stock I will need is some MK1 coaches, but I am unsure what type, between Corridor and Open versions, were used. Can anyone clarify?

[The Stationmaster]

2 minutes ago, MoarCrossovers said:

I am hoping that someone will help me out.

 

I have a layout in the works depicting a small branchline terminus during the period of transition when BR introduced diesels and branchlines were getting the axe.

 

For this, some of the rolling stock I will need is some MK1 coaches, but I am unsure what type, between Corridor and Open versions, were used. Can anyone clarify?

General location you have in mind and what sort of train service would they be used on?

 

If you look at my pictures in the thread linked below you will see a number of examples of gangwayed Mk1 coaches on WR branch in the 1960s.

 

 

[MoarCrossovers]

The area I intend to model is the North West, particularly around the Blackpool, Preston and Fleetwood region. As for train service... I'm not sure. 

[TravisM]

From what I've read on here and other places, the Southern Railway and later the Southern Region's Atlantic Coast Express (ACE) with it's multiple sections would be a great jumping off point but as I've read, your area is the North West, it wouldn't apply.  I'm pretty sure that coaching stock would have still been used on branch lines during the transition period before DMU's finally took over.  Remember Rule 1 on your layout and you could say that the train is either deputising for a failed DMU or DMU's were being phased in as loco hauled stock is being phased out.

[Bomag]

Local services which were not already DMU may have been formed of Mk1 Suburban stock.

 

The only mainline Mk1s you likely see is a portion working of a longer distance service. e.g. off a Blackpool service split at Preston. Given that corridor Mk1 stock outnumbered open stock by about 3 to 1 you would likely have a portion of BSK/CK or for three coaches BSK/CK/SK or BSK/CK/BSK

[Steven B]

BR(M) liked formations centered on CK book ended with BSK+SK.

eg.

BSK CK SK BSK

BSK SK CK BSK

BSK SK SK CK SK SK BSK

 

SO's weren't common.

 

Is your branchline one slated for closure? Early on in your period you're probably best looking at pre-BR stock. Later on, first generation DMUs would be much more common on branch-lines than Mk1 stock.

 

Mk1s would only be likely on longer distance trains that joined other portions en-route - e.g. Windermere/Carlisle to Euston, joining at Oxenholme, or Blackpool & Windermere to Euston (joining at Preston). 

 

It's only on these splitting services that you're likely to see full first class & catering vehicles:

BFK+FK+SO+RKB+TSO+TSO+BSK (Blackpool - Euston)

BSK+CK+CK+SK+BSK (Windermere - Euston - attached rear of Blackpool portion)

 

 

Steven B.

[Marshall5]

In the N.W. area, up to about 1965, most local services that hadn't been turned over to DMU's would be formed of ex LMS or LMS designed non-corridors with some Stanier period 3 BSK/SK/CK's thrown in.  Through the early 60's the latter would gradually be replacing the older non-corridors as they were replaced by Mk !'s on more important services.  Some branches such as Bacup were early converts to DMU operation in the mid 50's but others such as Horwich remained steam worked up to closure in1965.  By then very few branches remained in the N.W.  With the notable exception of the Windermere, as mentioned above, or Alnwick in the N.E. M.k 1's would seldom be seen on branchlines.  Maybe it's because most preserved branches are now using Mk 1's we get the wrong idea?

Ray.

[The Johnster]

There’s branchlines and then there’s  branchlines, and your area didn’t really have any, with short branches that were more ‘main line’ in character, seaside resorts and ferry/fishing ports attracting through as well as local trains and excursion traffic.  The local trains would have probably gone over to dmus in the late 50s, certainly no later than about ‘62, with a very occasional loco hauled relief.  You are lucky in that the dmu types you want are available RTR. 
 

Loco hauled stock on a small branch on this part of the world is going to be very predominantly exLMS designed during the steam era, non-gangwayed and hauled by tank locos up to about 62, gangwayed Staniers with bigger locos afterwards, Black 5s being the go to, tender first operation being common and perhaps the odd class 24 or 25 putting in an appearance.  Most of the Stanier coaches were gone, replaced by mk1s by 1966, by which time blue liveried dmus with syps were appearing, and even the odd blue/grey gangwayed mk1. 
 

I would go easy on the mk1s, and there is probably no need at all for non-gangwayed mk1s.  Opens were favoured for excursion traffic, and this should be very largely 2nd class.  Catering vehicles would be very rare; excursionists brought their own beer and sarnies.  

Edited September 21, 2020 by The Johnster

[Zunnan]

One of my old haunts for drinking and dining out (The Elephant indian restaurant at Ormskirk was great! I think its called Nellie thesedays), so I did engross myself in the local railway history a fair bit. Plenty of photos in the '60s showing Mk1 corridor stock on local stoppers throughout the area mixed with a profusion of ex-LMS types. The area was of course the last bastion of steam, right to the end.

 

Steven has it spot on, typical formations were centred around a composite and typically the local stoppers seemed to be 3 or 4 coach rakes, for which you can legitimately run a full Mk1 corridor coach rake or a full ex-LMS rake or a mix thereof. Generally hauled by anything from an Ivatt 2MTT to a Black 5, but much of the motive power seemed to be the 2-6-4 tanks. Venturing off down the various smaller branches things got a bit more suburban, but the formations were very much similar to the local stoppers. Hornbys Stanier suburbans are probably a better choice, but the Mk1 non-corridor stock did feature too. That is not to say a local stopper set didn't sometimes venture up the branches for the odd special occasion.

 

Echoing Stevens post, to represent a typical local stopper I'd go for a 4 coach rake comprising ~

corridor brake third/corridor composite/corridor third(or open third)/corridor brake third

For a 3 car rake I've seen either the corridor third or the brake third omitted.

Haulage, to give a flavour of the area I'd side with a grotty Black 5 or a Stanier 4P tank for '60s traction.

To represent the transition period, I would give consideration to running a mixed rake comprising Mk1 corridor, Porthole and P3 Stanier stock. One of my favourite photos from the era in this area was of a L&Y class 5 2-4-2 hauling a 4 coach train comprising all corridor stock and was formed Porthole BTK/P3 TK/Mk1 CK/P3 BTK

 

For the branches typical day to day service, I'd side with Hormby ex-LMS non-corridor stock, but Bachmann Mk1 non-corridor will work equally with pretty much the same base 4 coach rake ~

brake third/composite/third/brake third

Same thing for a 3 car, omit one brake third or the all third.

2 coach services also existed, not always with any first class accommodation, so you could also split a 4 coach non corridor rake and run two trains thus ~

brake third/third and brake third/composite.

Haulage was more typically an Ivatt 2MTT for the '60s transition but I'd really fancy a late surviving Lanky tank as they lasted to 1961 around this very area, and that really would nail down a location being modelled.

Edited September 21, 2020 by Zunnan

[The Johnster]

Many of those Ormskirk photos will have been taken in the very last years of steam, when the Liverpool Exchange-Preston run was the only regular booked passenger steam service left.   In it’s final couple of years with steam it was mk1 stock, and on the last run I had on it we had a 25, which I have to say despite my poor opinion put in a spirited performance, 6 mk1s IIRC but I can’t recall formation. 
 

I thought that the occasional combination of a reasonably clean lined Black 5 and a blue/grey mk1 was not unattractive!

Edited September 21, 2020 by The Johnster

[fezza]

Excursions sometimes saw Mk1s on branches. The Oldham branch saw Mk1s on Adex and Footex as late as the 1980s.

[Zunnan]

3 hours ago, The Johnster said:

Many of those Ormskirk photos will have been taken in the very last years of steam, when the Liverpool Exchange-Preston run was the only regular booked passenger steam service left.   In it’s final couple of years with steam it was mk1 stock, and on the last run I had on it we had a 25, which I have to say despite my poor opinion put in a spirited performance, 6 mk1s IIRC but I can’t recall formation. 
 

I thought that the occasional combination of a reasonably clean lined Black 5 and a blue/grey mk1 was not unattractive!

 

Your previous post is pretty much on point. Branch lines in the area around Preston were next to non existant with everything being more akin to a secondary route. And as for the route between Preston-Blackpool, that at the time was more like an extension of the WCML with its need to cater for extremely heavy peak season traffic. Even the 'branch' on to Fleetwood was a rather significant affair. I think DMUs arrived on the scene a bit later than '62 mind you, at least not in too great a number, loco hauled services persisted for a very long time. So long in fact that even alongside the DMU services of the '90s you could still bash a 31/4 and later still 37/4 loco hauled service to Blackpool.

 

My deflection towards Ormskirk was a bit deliberate, I'll admit. It had one of the few true branchlines coming from the routes on the coastal side of Preston, off the Liverpool-Preston route, namely the branch to Skelmersdale from Ormskirk. Sadly this one closed to passengers even before the transition era, but it was Ivatt 2MTT push-pull operated from the very early '50s up until its demise in Nov '56. Even so, I always felt the lines Southwest from Preston had a bit more of a rural feel to them. I think in this instance a 'what if?' is going to fit the bill, so the generic stopper 3 or 4 set is probably the ideal.

 

edit ~

 

Found a thread I had in mind which is very relevant for this thread. From page 3 there are a series of posts with fantastic photos of the route through Treales and Kirkham, and by page 5 into Fleetwood; diesels becoming evident from around 1963/64. Of particular interest with the locals is the relatively high number of ex-LNER coaches in use on various services including one shot with a Gresley brake behind a push pull Ivatt. Pretty much anything and everything can be seen in photos on this thread from ex-LNER subs and Corridor stock, likewise ex-LMS and also Mk1 corridor and subs, and the whole thread conveys just how busy this route was.

 

 

 

Edited September 21, 2020 by Zunnan

[MoarCrossovers]

That is certainly a surprise to know that LNER coach stock was run locally on an LMS line.

[Zunnan]

I wouldn't call it so much a surprise that it happened, but it can certainly raise an eyebrow a bit. The BR(M) was well known for their 'borrowing' of vehicles, and when it came to replacements for faulty coaches or strengthening services with additional vehicles they were pretty much added in based on the seating capacity rather than where they came from. So actually it comes as little surprise to see an LNER vehicle drafted in to replace a local vehicle in a location such as Blackpool where LNER stock was prevalent in the carriage sidings, probably laid up for long periods too in the off peak season. That there is photo evidence of it occurring does help clear things up, though to model such occurrences will undoubtedly stir up howls of protest that it shouldn't and didn't happen!

 

On the evidence in Arthurs thread, I would therefore say that the 'branch' service you are looking for to represent this specific location in the transition period would primarily comprise of ex-LMS corridor coaches as supplied by Hornby and Bachmann in a 2 set for off season and a 3 set for peak season from 1960 to around 1964. For a bit of variety you could legitimately swap out a coach for an ex-LNER or a BR Mk1 as there are photographs proving this happened. The twist in the tale is that the few branches in this area didn't survive at all well, even Blackpool Central closed in'64, so really a smaller branch won't have seen diesels at all.

 

However, its your railway so you make the rules! So the branch survives a bit longer...Trains from 1964 onwards, steam lasted a while side by side on the branch with a DMU, perhaps to the end of the year when it will most likely have gone entirely DMU based for locals. Specials and longer distance stoppers will have been primarily steam with diesels appearing from 1963, steam persisted right up to 1968 with some ex-LMS coaches even lasting a bit beyond into the very early '70s. But generally speaking after around 1966/67 longer distance services will have been formed of Mk1 corridor stock and the occasional early Mk2 (even behind steam) alongside the local DMU, the old LMS vehicles by then will be an ever reducing sight.

[Steven B]

One thing to watch out for if mixing LMS and Mk1 stock is that they required adapters fitting to the corridor connectors to work together. With a mixed rake you're more likely to see groups of similar vehicles together to reduce the number of adapters needed.

 

e.g. LMS-LMS-Mk1-Mk1 rather than LMS-Mk1-LMS-Mk1

 

Steven B.

[MoarCrossovers]

Would you have seen "Porthole" type coach stock in the area, or were they reserved for work elsewhere?

[Gibbo675]

On 21/09/2020 at 18:51, The Johnster said:

Many of those Ormskirk photos will have been taken in the very last years of steam, when the Liverpool Exchange-Preston run was the only regular booked passenger steam service left.   In it’s final couple of years with steam it was mk1 stock, and on the last run I had on it we had a 25, which I have to say despite my poor opinion put in a spirited performance, 6 mk1s IIRC but I can’t recall formation. 
 

I thought that the occasional combination of a reasonably clean lined Black 5 and a blue/grey mk1 was not unattractive!

Hi Johnster,

 

Here is just the video.

 

 

 

Gibbo.

[Zomboid]

Nice black 5 with some maroon LMS coaches, B/G mk1s and a mk2 in there. A good one to run at an exhibition.

[Zunnan]

On ‎25‎/‎09‎/‎2020 at 16:01, Zomboid said:

Nice black 5 with some maroon LMS coaches, B/G mk1s and a mk2 in there. A good one to run at an exhibition.

 

B/G Porthole too, a proper mixed bag and wonderful to watch.

 

On ‎24‎/‎09‎/‎2020 at 16:46, MoarCrossovers said:

Would you have seen "Porthole" type coach stock in the area, or were they reserved for work elsewhere?

 

Portholes got everywhere, they won't have been the most common of the LMS designs on show but there will have been plenty.

 

I believe the very first photo in Arthurs thread of Treales 1961 shows a Porthole brake third at the head of the train, as does one at Kirkham 1963 with the Caprotti Black 5 and the colour shot of 45617 'Mauritius'. The locals too, the two coach train lead by 84011 shows a Porthole brake. Door between second and third corridor windows and deeper tumbleholm are the telltale signs at that range even when you can't see the round porthole window.