Class 121 DTS (Class 149?)

[TravisM]

I'm really not sure if Bachmann have scored a little bit of a "own goal" regarding their excellent Class 121 bubblecar as they've not offered the Driving Trailer Second (DTS) which a large percentage ran with, especially the Thames Valley branches.  I emailed Bachmann and to be honest, got a very lukewarm reply considering the easy option of how to create one.  Basically I said that they just needed a body shell of a DMS without the gangway as I'm not sure if any were refurbished with them, but I stand to be corrected; and the chassis of the TS.  I know there will be small detail differences but I think they could be easily dealt with.

 

I've got a Class 117, a Class 121 and I'd really like to have one to go on my branchline layout but the only way I think I can achieve it is by butchering a Lima 117, which I think is a retrograde step given the Bachmann 121's detail.

 

Thought's on a postcard please.

Edited September 21, 2020 by jools1959

[Robert Shrives]

Hi In N I just chopped up a Dapol 122 and 121 shells to make a DTS  I guess you can do the same with the OO  version.   No doubt Bachamann will see the sense eventually.

 

Robert   

[TravisM]

13 minutes ago, Robert Shrives said:

Hi In N I just chopped up a Dapol 122 and 121 shells to make a DTS  I guess you can do the same with the OO  version.   No doubt Bachamann will see the sense eventually.

 

Robert   

 

Hi Robert, I thought about doing the same with butchering a Lima Class DMS and TS which I think would be easy enough but would the models age in it's moulding compare well with the Bachmann model?  It's almost in the same league as making comparisons between Lima/Hornby Class 156 and Realtrack's version.  Hopefully Bachmann will read this and offer the DTS which I now believe was TOPS coded Class 149 either on it's own or as a boxed set with a Class 121.

[rembrow]

I have built both a 121 dts and 122 dts trailers using Lima class 117 parts and they look fine. Unlike the Lima 156, the 117 is very well detailed if a little generic, having marker lights and gangways for BR green. The marker lights are fine for a dts trailer and the gangway can be removed and the depression filled with plasticard. Some had gangways fitted later, presumably to run in mixed sets with a different dmu class power car.

The major work is replacing the brake/luggage area, as Lima only produced the dmbs car. I used the replacement part sides made by Silver Fox Models which are the ex Taylor Precision Plastics conversion parts. It includes the extra seating and partitions. I use mine with a Dapol 121 and having got that done I went for the 122 dts trailer which needed the cab roof box changes

Edited September 21, 2020 by rembrow

[TravisM]

20 minutes ago, rembrow said:

I have built both a 121 dts and 122 dts trailers using Lima class 117 parts and they look fine. Unlike the Lima 156, the 117 is very well detailed if a little generic, having marker lights and gangways for BR green. The marker lights are fine for a dts trailer and the gangway can be removed and the depression filled with plasticard. Some had gangways fitted later, presumably to run in mixed sets with a different dmu class power car.

The major work is replacing the brake/luggage area, as Lima only produced the dmbs car. I used the replacement part sides made by Silver Fox Models which are the ex Taylor Precision Plastics conversion parts. It includes the extra seating and partitions. I use mine with a Dapol 121 and having got that done I went for the 122 dts trailer which needed the cab roof box changes

I think I might have to resort to butchering a Lima Class 117 but the problem I’m having is which DTS trailers had gangways fitted as there’s loads of pictures of the driving end, but precious few of the of the non driving end.  If anyone has a list or pictures of those that did and those that didn’t, it would be most useful.

Edited September 21, 2020 by jools1959

[rembrow]

18 minutes ago, jools1959 said:

I think I might have to resort to butchering a Lima Class 117 but the problem I’m having is which DTS trailers had gangways fitted as there’s loads of pictures of the driving end, but precious few of the of the non driving end.  If anyone has a list or pictures of those that did and those that didn’t, it would be most useful.

According to Railcar website, only 2 of the Class 121 dts were converted to gangways fitted in 1988, so quite late. This was after the vehicles were renumbered into the series 54280 - 54289 in 1983. The two gangways fitted coaches were 54287 converted in July 1988 and 54289 in November 1988.

[The Stationmaster]

I'm trying hard to remember which Thames Valley (in its wider sense) branches ran with DETs.  (We always referred to them as Drive End Trailers and showed them as such on notices etc).  Windsor I'm pretty sure normally ran with a DET but it was about the only one - not so sure about Marlow but in earlier years it seems to have been a lone SPC gaining a DET in the 1970s; Henley was invariably just an SPC until the Pressed Steel cars were moved away,; the DN&S between Didcot  & Newbury was just an SPC and so was the Abingdon branch car.    I can't remember what happened with the Greenford car and in any case that would have been influenced by the available length in the car park (= turnround siding) at Ealing Broadway which was fairly short.

 

The London Division DETs tended to work with 3 car sets as much as with SPCs and looking at the 1970/71 Pddington station working book the Hayes night staff & news trains were formed SPC on D72+ DET 82, and during the day there were sets D11+DET 85, D44+DET 91, &  D12+DET 86 on  Padd - Slough and Padd - Reading workings during the morning and evening peaks.  So that was 30% of the total Pressed Steel DET fleet on mainline workings with 3 car sets to/from Paddington every weekday without even considering what was happening further out on the London Division.  Don't forget too that the were only 10 Pressed Steel DETs against 16 SPCs .

[Mike_Walker]

The Marlow Donkey was regularly formed of SPC and DET often frustratingly usually with DET coupled to the saloon end of the SPC.

[No Decorum]

18 hours ago, jools1959 said:

 

I emailed Bachmann and to be honest, got a very lukewarm reply considering the easy option of how to create one.

 

I wouldn’t read too much into that reaction. Bachmann has gone tight-lipped about new projects and is likely to be poker-faced about anything not already announced.

[TravisM]

4 hours ago, No Decorum said:

I wouldn’t read too much into that reaction. Bachmann has gone tight-lipped about new projects and is likely to be poker-faced about anything not already announced.

I perfectly understand about being tight lipped but a polite reply speaks volumes and gives a sense that their suggestion has been listened to.

[Metr0Land]

On 21/09/2020 at 23:04, The Stationmaster said:

 I can't remember what happened with the Greenford car and in any case that would have been influenced by the available length in the car park (= turnround siding) at Ealing Broadway which was fairly short.

 

 

 

My recollection is that the non-powered trailer was always at the London end, so could be placed in the turnback siding whilst the bubble car operated solo during the middle part of the day.

[rob D2]

Yes I’d like one too - Marlow born and bred so you’ll know why 

[keefer]

the page at railcar.co.uk:

https://www.railcar.co.uk/type/class-121/description

 

as you suggested to Bachmann, the simplest way to a DTS would be a 117 DMS body on a TC chassis - they were made by the same builder after all (Pressed Steel).

I suppose a thing to look out for would be a retailer selling off individual cars (e.g. the 3-car 117 has a faulty motor/drive) or keep an eye on eBay etc for them.

Or the 121 DMBS could even  be thought of as 117 DMBS with an extra cab. So buy a 117 and mix & match as above (although that would depend on finding a matching extra cab front)

Either way, you would have a TC body and DMS chassis left over - the former possibly easier to find a chassis for (Lima etc) due to less detail,  the latter possibly more useful (under a spare 121 body).

 

A big factor of course, is the price of the new items required - unless they can be sourced as spares/breakages etc from retailers/other modellers

[TravisM]

5 minutes ago, keefer said:

the page at railcar.co.uk:

https://www.railcar.co.uk/type/class-121/description

 

as you suggested to Bachmann, the simplest way to a DTS would be a 117 DMS body on a TC chassis - they were made by the same builder after all (Pressed Steel).

I suppose a thing to look out for would be a retailer selling off individual cars (e.g. the 3-car 117 has a faulty motor/drive) or keep an eye on eBay etc for them.

Or the 121 DMBS could even  be thought of as 117 DMBS with an extra cab. So buy a 117 and mix & match as above (although that would depend on finding a matching extra cab front)

Either way, you would have a TC body and DMS chassis left over - the former possibly easier to find a chassis for (Lima etc) due to less detail,  the latter possibly more useful (under a spare 121 body).

 

A big factor of course, is the price of the new items required - unless they can be sourced as spares/breakages etc from retailers/other modellers

I have spoken to the Bachmann spares department in the past and found them extremely helpful.  I think the model has to have been out on general sale for about 6-9 months before they will release spares to the general public.  If you have damage to a item, say a body shell before then and can produce a receipt, they will sell you a replacement if there in stock.

 

I think I might just sit quietly and wait until the clamour of the units has died down, then contact them and see what they can offer.

[TravisM]

I spoke to a friend yesterday about the DTS and he said that it will appear from Bachmann about the same time the Class 205 Centre coach arrives, which has been screamed out to be done for ages.  Best I not hold my breath then 

Edited September 28, 2020 by jools1959
Spelling

[dibber25]

Regardless of how easy it might be to make a DTS from different bits of the 117, that's not how production works. Each model has its own suite of tools, a complete set to make that model, otherwise you get two problems. First, you have to communicate to the factory which bits from which models they need to use. We've seen examples where that's gone wrong with wrong interiors in coaches, for instance. Secondly, and more importantly, you introduce differential amounts of wear on the tools, so for instance, your trailer composite chassis tools would see far more wear than your trailer composite body tool causing problems and potential retooling when you come to make another batch of the original model. So, a DTS would be great but it needs to stand on its own financial feet as project. (CJL)

 

[rob D2]

I think somebody will do it 3D printed or a resin kit,

can’t see Bachmann producing it , as it’s a bit niche 

[TravisM]

1 hour ago, dibber25 said:

Regardless of how easy it might be to make a DTS from different bits of the 117, that's not how production works. Each model has its own suite of tools, a complete set to make that model, otherwise you get two problems. First, you have to communicate to the factory which bits from which models they need to use. We've seen examples where that's gone wrong with wrong interiors in coaches, for instance. Secondly, and more importantly, you introduce differential amounts of wear on the tools, so for instance, your trailer composite chassis tools would see far more wear than your trailer composite body tool causing problems and potential retooling when you come to make another batch of the original model. So, a DTS would be great but it needs to stand on its own financial feet as project. (CJL)

 

 

Hi Chris, I really think had it been done as, or still can be done as a two car set, I think it could have sold well

[No Decorum]

2 hours ago, jools1959 said:

 

Hi Chris, I really think had it been done as, or still can be done as a two car set, I think it could have sold well

My first reaction was, “Well, Bachy would have sold me one,” meaning an unpowered trailer. However, I have removed the tension locks from both ends of the Bubble and fitted all the pipework. That’s one of the great virtues a Bubble, so long as it isn’t expected to haul anything. Of course, if Bachy were to make it irresistible, I might still go for a two car set.

Irresistible?

1. Tension locks on the inner ends, so that the power car could dump the trailer (extra versatility). Consequently, no wired connection.

2. A 21-pin socket, for full and independent lighting control.

The more I think about the idea, the more I like it. I’m getting a bit carried away. I think I need a distraction.

[TravisM]

3 hours ago, rob D2 said:

can’t see Bachmann producing it , as it’s a bit niche 

 

I have to disagree with you in saying it's "a bit niche" because not only were they attached to Class 121's, they strengthened Class 117's to four car set's from time to time as well as standing in for a DM when one went belly up, albeit either underpowered or just paired with another DM.

[rob D2]

1 hour ago, jools1959 said:

 

I have to disagree with you in saying it's "a bit niche" because not only were they attached to Class 121's, they strengthened Class 117's to four car set's from time to time as well as standing in for a DM when one went belly up, albeit either underpowered or just paired with another DM.

Did they , didn’t know that ! So the geographical spread was wide ?

[TravisM]

15 minutes ago, rob D2 said:

Did they , didn’t know that ! So the geographical spread was wide ?

 

Certainly in the Thames Valley.  I remember more than once a DTS subbing for a DM

[brushman47544]

8 hours ago, dibber25 said:

Regardless of how easy it might be to make a DTS from different bits of the 117, that's not how production works. Each model has its own suite of tools, a complete set to make that model, otherwise you get two problems. First, you have to communicate to the factory which bits from which models they need to use. We've seen examples where that's gone wrong with wrong interiors in coaches, for instance. Secondly, and more importantly, you introduce differential amounts of wear on the tools, so for instance, your trailer composite chassis tools would see far more wear than your trailer composite body tool causing problems and potential retooling when you come to make another batch of the original model. So, a DTS would be great but it needs to stand on its own financial feet as project. (CJL)

 

Whilst I agree about standing on its own feet financially, in principle those costs should be lower because some of the CAD work, such as the composite chassis, can be reused. So the “go” threshold should be lower.

[dibber25]

I think we've only got GWR No. 18 to do and every single-unit diesel railcar that operated for BR has been done in ready-to-run 'OO'. Two- and three-car sets are much less well covered because they are not 'dead certs' for good sales in the same way that single cars are. With the DTS, there are choices which further complicate matters. The single car has standard tension-locks both ends, so immediately you have a question mark over how you provide directional lighting in the trailer car or DCC with one decoder. If you re-make the DMBS with the multi-pin plug coupling, those who only run it as a single car will have an ugly redundant coupling at one end and you've got tooling and assembly revisions to the single car. We can, of course, do as BR often did and run two single cars coupled together if we really want a two-car set. I also wonder just how accurate the TC chassis would be for the DTS, bearing in mind that one has a toilet and the other doesn't - were there other differences aside from the toilet pipework? (CJL)

[rembrow]

12 hours ago, jools1959 said:

 

I have to disagree with you in saying it's "a bit niche" because not only were they attached to Class 121's, they strengthened Class 117's to four car set's from time to time as well as standing in for a DM when one went belly up, albeit either underpowered or just paired with another DM.

Although in a different scale 'O', Heljan have announced both class 149 and 150 dts vehicles to go with their planned Class 121 and 122 models, so might be an indication of how well an 'oo' model might sell, based on a) whether they reach market and b) their sales levels, as it will be expected sales that will drive the introduction of any model.