Lacathedrale Posted September 28, 2020 Author Share Posted September 28, 2020 (edited) Hi @Titanius Anglesmith - good point for the ground signal at 11, thank you - added here as 21.. As for the 8/13/x arrangement, I think I've got what you mean here: Ground signal 8 set to a yellow since at caution it will still permit access into the headshunt and goods shed at y. Presumably 1,2,3,4 and 18 would be on a signal gantry across the tracks, and the longer platforms (1 and 4) would have calling on arms, and the platform starters would have shunt signals (in the pre-group era) to permit movement out to 18. That particular formation in 'real life' looks like this, with the standard 4 tank on P1 and the two sidings off to the bottom-right of the photo: Originally I had depicted ?? as a double slip - the headshunt providing a trap for both the loco and goods shed roads. In reality I found while signalling the plan that there is no need for a route from P1 into the headshunt over y, since the goods siding was only long enough for 2-3 wagons and the engine shed lead would be fine for that, so I changed it to a barry slip (where the two curved roads never join) - however if there's a compelling reason to choose one over the other I'm all ears. Edited September 28, 2020 by Lacathedrale Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grovenor Posted September 28, 2020 Share Posted September 28, 2020 Whether 13 is a Barry slip or a double slip you have a problem there, since Platform 1 isa passenger line it has to be trapped from the sidings and engine shed as any move over the slip will foul the passenger line. You can use the goods shed point as a trap hence it has to be worked from the box and a signal provided similar to your original design. The engine shed road needs a new worked trap and signal. the goods siding signal can be a yellow, the engine shed signal has to be a red. Personally I would reverse the normal lie of 10 but that can be done either way. So far as the locking goes have another read of your green books. Always do the point locking first then add the signals so you are not duplicating lots of locking. It helps also, if you want it prototypical, to show facing point locks, you need a lot of them. 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grovenor Posted September 28, 2020 Share Posted September 28, 2020 Like this, Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lacathedrale Posted September 28, 2020 Author Share Posted September 28, 2020 (edited) Thanks Keith, definitely more to learn - such simple rules feel so bloody complicated when it comes to a real implementation! Thanks for the tip on sorting the locking of points first, I'd been going by signals locking opposing signals first! EDIT: thanks for the diagram, why did you change the lie of 10? Any particular distinction between your recommendation of implementing 21 and 22 as box controlled and Mike's suggestion of hand signaled and hand-levers? Edited September 28, 2020 by Lacathedrale Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted September 28, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 28, 2020 Right - needs a rather different treatment then - 1. The engine shed sidings needs its own trap point plus exit ground signal. 2. The headshunt outlet point 'Y' ill also need to act as a trap 3. I'm pretty sure that the SECR did not use yellow arm discs! I can see nothing wrong with going for a Barry slip if that is what you fancy and gives you the movements you need but think very carefully about the movements you need t work the area before you make your decision. With your interlocking I would be very strongly inclined to go for the advantages offered by first getting your interlocking between various points sorted before you start adding in the signal locking because getting the points settled first will reduce the amount of locking needed for the signals. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lacathedrale Posted September 28, 2020 Author Share Posted September 28, 2020 @The Stationmaster , @Grovenor's most recent plan includes the trap and ground signal on the engine shed road so that's good. Working on a locking table now... 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LNERGE Posted September 28, 2020 Share Posted September 28, 2020 Some similarities here?.. 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grovenor Posted September 28, 2020 Share Posted September 28, 2020 1 hour ago, Lacathedrale said: Thanks Keith, definitely more to learn - such simple rules feel so bloody complicated when it comes to a real implementation! Thanks for the tip on sorting the locking of points first, I'd been going by signals locking opposing signals first! EDIT: thanks for the diagram, why did you change the lie of 10? Any particular distinction between your recommendation of implementing 21 and 22 as box controlled and Mike's suggestion of hand signaled and hand-levers? Lie of 10 just personal preference as I said could work either way. Traps are neccessary to protect the passenger route into platform 1. The Barry slip or double slip cannot provide protection as all moves through them conflict. See Stationmasters latest post agreeing with me. I suggested yellow ground signal for the principle and as that is what the green books show. If you find what your chosen comany and period used for that function then use that, could be as simple as a point indicator or as complex as using a double arm signal. I would suggest sorting the numbering before doing a locking chart, I just used vacant numbers which are not optimal for a frame. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lacathedrale Posted September 28, 2020 Author Share Posted September 28, 2020 @LNERGE you're absolutely right - at least from my uneducated eye. Would I need a subsidiary signal under 1,2,3,4 to signal movement from the up line into the ES, or would I assume the pilot would simply move into a platform road and back out onto the down main and use 8? I'm just having so much trouble trying to figure out the order to write this locking down - I feel like I just can't get it Some parts seem easy, and others I just get up all in a twist. I'll sort the numbering now. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted September 28, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 28, 2020 2 minutes ago, Lacathedrale said: @LNERGE you're absolutely right - at least from my uneducated eye. Would I need a subsidiary signal under 1,2,3,4 to signal movement from the up line into the ES, or would I assume the pilot would simply move into a platform road and back out onto the down main and use 8? I'm just having so much trouble trying to figure out the order to write this locking down - I feel like I just can't get it Some parts seem easy, and others I just get up all in a twist. I'll sort the numbering now. I'm no expert on the signalling for that company but I think there would almost certainly have been some sort of 'reduced status' arm to read to the engine shed siding. Incidentally yoi need another ground signal at the toe of No.9 points in the Down Line. Whay t I would advise you to do before anything else is to think through all the likely movements and check you have provided signals for them 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lacathedrale Posted September 29, 2020 Author Share Posted September 29, 2020 (edited) Thanks @The Stationmaster . My interpretation of ground signal 8 is that it could read through to any platform road,, and that 9 is used only by P4 to access the down, since the distance between 9 and 6 is too small to hold a train of any sort? These are the routes that I've figured out: I have included any turnout which the route traverses, is that about right? What is the next step to translate this into a locking table? Edited September 29, 2020 by Lacathedrale Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
HighlandRailwayman Posted September 29, 2020 Share Posted September 29, 2020 On 23/09/2020 at 10:15, The Stationmaster said: One question that came up when Mick and I were talking yesterday was about mechanical sequential (aka rotation) locking and does any still exist anywhere on the national network? I'm fairly certain that there is none left on any Western frames. (as in WR as it stood at the end of its life). Although I know, according to drawings, there was still some around in the 1970s but in general full sequential locking seems to have been a later addition at many (most?) Western 'boxes so it had been done electrically. In a few cases some tappet locking had been added to older frames to provide sequential locking. Mike, Just checked the /3's for ex WR boxes, and Droitwich, Lostwithiel, Malvern Wells, St. Erth and Worcester Tunnel Junction still have MSL with sprung nibs. Its very prevelant in mechanical form on ex LMS type frames, but relatively rate on Eastern frames that I now have. Hope that helps, Martin 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted September 29, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 29, 2020 (edited) On 29/09/2020 at 11:16, Lacathedrale said: Thanks @The Stationmaster . My interpretation of ground signal 8 is that it could read through to any platform road,, and that 9 is used only by P4 to access the down, since the distance between 9 and 6 is too small to hold a train of any sort? These are the routes that I've figured out: I have included any turnout which the route traverses, is that about right? What is the next step to translate this into a locking table? What you have written in effect is the lever leads, i.e. which levers have to be pulled in order to release a particular lever. So you can use all the ones shown in the pink squares to do the 'Released By' column of a locking chart. You can use all the ones with the green squares to do part of the 'Locks' chart column. What you haven't done is sort out the locking between points first. (Using your chart) Line 20 Up to ES would be Released by 5, 10, [21 an error I think, 21 should be green] and 23. And it would lock 11. But if you locked the point levers first then 5 would lock 11 -, so no need for Route 20 to lock 11. Similarly 13 would lock 21 so, again, no need for Route 20 to lock 21. And 23 would be released by 13 so there is no need for 13 to release Route 20. Taking another example for Route Line 3, Up to Platform 2 if you do the point locking first Point Lever No.6 would lock Lever No. 5 and Release Lever No.7. (and No.7 could lock No.12). So the lever for your Route No. 3 need only be released by Lever No.7. Again it shows the advantage of getting the interlocking right between point levers done first using the simple rule that point levers should interlock each other to prevent conflicting routes being set. For your point locking Lever 5 would lock levers 6, 9, & 11 (and conditionally Lock 12 with 10 Normal but taht will be influenced by the distances between signals and any need for operational flexibility) point lever 6 would lock levers 5, 9, & 12. And would release Lever 7 .... and so on PS One thing I would recommend is revising the normal lie of No.10 points to the way it was originally drawn, i.e. towards Platform 1. The reason for doing this is to avoid a conditional lock because as the revised sketch stands 7 will lock 11 with 10 normal. (and vice versa of course). If the lie of 10 is altered back to the original 7 will simply lock 10 with no conditional element. Thus the parallel move facility is preserved with simpler locking Edited October 1, 2020 by The Stationmaster To add PS re normal lie off points 10. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sir douglas Posted September 30, 2020 Share Posted September 30, 2020 (edited) i havent got these myself, but ive noted 3 articles about lever frames and interlocking in my club library. sorry about not knowing the month issue, i only noted by page number RM 1988 p536 Lever frame interlocking RM 1996 p311 making a lever frame model railway news 1960 p222 Edited September 30, 2020 by sir douglas 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grovenor Posted October 1, 2020 Share Posted October 1, 2020 (edited) Quote PS One thing I would recommend is revising the normal lie of No.10 points to the way it was originally drawn, i.e. towards Platform 1. The reason for doing this is to avoid a conditional lock because as the revised sketch stands 7 will lock 11 with 10 normal. (and vice versa of course). If the lie of 10 is altered back to the original 7 will simply lock 10 with no conditional element. Thus the parallel move facility is preserved with simpler locking There is no need for conditional locking either way, if 7 can lock 10 it can equally be released by 10. Its a matter of personal preference but I agree putting it back as was saves a lever pull in that case, but will cause an extra one elsewhere, swings and roundabouts. I would still recommend redoing the numbering before getting into the locking, the extra points and signals were just added on the end which is not really the right place. And I think I would put the double slip back rather than the Barry slip, as it is any access to the goods shed involves shunting via the engine shed which could be very awkward. Edited October 1, 2020 by Grovenor Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted October 2, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 2, 2020 12 hours ago, Grovenor said: There is no need for conditional locking either way, if 7 can lock 10 it can equally be released by 10. Its a matter of personal preference but I agree putting it back as was saves a lever pull in that case, but will cause an extra one elsewhere, swings and roundabouts. I would still recommend redoing the numbering before getting into the locking, the extra points and signals were just added on the end which is not really the right place. And I think I would put the double slip back rather than the Barry slip, as it is any access to the goods shed involves shunting via the engine shed which could be very awkward. I'm a bit confused there sorry. If 10 lies normal towards Platform 2 then either 10 has to release 7 (which seems a bit odd because it isn't in the logical route) or 7 has to lock 11 with 10 Normal. If the lie of 10 is changed then 7 locks 10 (and vice versa) so the only levers pulled are those in the direct route and it is easier to learn the lead because it is all logically in the route being set. Exactly the reason why some lever frame leads were the subject of work study assessment in the late 1950s although a locking designer would normally hopefully go with a logical series of pulls. And yes, the numbering really should be sorted before anything else happens although what amounts to a route locking table drawn up by Lacathedrale remains valid with - at that stage - only the point lever numbers to revise. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lacathedrale Posted October 2, 2020 Author Share Posted October 2, 2020 I have reviewed the IRSE green book on lever numbering and have seen these rules: The numbering layout should as far as possible be arranged that signalmen are pulling levers in ascending or descending numerical order All levers for the same routes should be as close together as ppossible. Signals: to be placed in the centre reading outwards, or the ends inwards (rather than interspersed), except for ground signals, which should be next to points through which they read. Point levers should go from low numbers left side (up), High numbers right (down) THis is what I have come up with. I've managed to simplify my plan somewhat, so hopefully that should simplify the signalling requirements: Home signals 1-3 read through to P4, 3 and 2 respectively. Crossover 4 is only used for a) shunting movements and b) departures, but its position means it's either the first lever pulled in an 'up' shunting move, or the last lever pulled in a 'down' departure. 5 and 6 are used for arrivals to P4, 3, and 2 and so are next. The outer throat lane levers 7-11 are bisected by ground signal 9 on one side, which handles movements from the up line, and capped by ground signal 11 which handles movements from the down line. I did not think it made sense to insert the coal stage headshunt or the engine shed trap into the middle of the running line levers, so those are 12-15. 16 is a shunt signal from P4 down to the up main, no other levers are involved and it's in the same direction of the starters, so I put it here. Platform starters count down from the other end of the frame so are 20, 19, and 18. Before I get into routing and locking - I just want to clarify, that I think in the era I'm modelling that the starters would have S shunt signals. Whether 17 and 9 would be as such I'm not sure. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RailWest Posted October 2, 2020 Share Posted October 2, 2020 >>>16 is a shunt signal from P4 down to the up main..... ...but 16 is listed as a spare :-) >>>I think in the era I'm modelling that the starters would have S shunt signals.... Not sure what you mean by that? or why? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted October 2, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 2, 2020 (edited) 21 hours ago, RailWest said: >>>I think in the era I'm modelling that the starters would have S shunt signals.... Not sure what you mean by that? or why? The only reasonably indicative box diagram I can find is Cannon Street and there the platform starting signals did have subsidiaries - but they all appear to have been there to read to engine sidings. 23 hours ago, Lacathedrale said: I have reviewed the IRSE green book on lever numbering and have seen these rules: The numbering layout should as far as possible be arranged that signalmen are pulling levers in ascending or descending numerical order All levers for the same routes should be as close together as ppossible. Signals: to be placed in the centre reading outwards, or the ends inwards (rather than interspersed), except for ground signals, which should be next to points through which they read. Point levers should go from low numbers left side (up), High numbers right (down) THis is what I have come up with. I've managed to simplify my plan somewhat, so hopefully that should simplify the signalling requirements: The plan reveals a slight problem - where does 17 read to? Sorry for not mentioning it earlier but It would appear that you need a trailing crossover in the station approach otherwise shunting trains and engines out of Platform 4 is going to be a considerable cause of congestion as it will effectively block the incoming line for an extended period. As it stands the interlocking between point levers (and only between point levers) would be as follows - 4 - Locks 5 .10 5 - Locks 4. Releases 6 6 - Locks 10 with 7 normal 7 - Locks Nil. Releases 12 (because of the very short distance between 7 and 8). 8 - Locks 14. Releases 12 10 - Locks 4. 6 with 7 Normal 12 - Locks Nil 14 - Locks 8 Some of the signal k leads will very straightforward, e.g 5 leads 2; 5.6 leads 3; 10 leads 19 - and so on. But some will be a bit more complex, The lead for 9 would NIL OR 4 OR 5 OR 5.6 OR 4.7 OR 4.7.8.12 (which gives two routes to Platform 2 which could be sensibly reduced to only one, via 5.6 ) but there will be an awful lot of unavoidable conditional releases via lever 4. Some of this could be avoided by using soem sort of shunting subsidiary arms beneath signals 1/2/3 in order to reduce the number of routes from ground signal 4 9 - it really depends how busy you envisage the terminus being or will you be relying on lots of hand signalling for shunting moves? Edited October 3, 2020 by The Stationmaster 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grovenor Posted October 2, 2020 Share Posted October 2, 2020 Quote And I think I would put the double slip back rather than the Barry slip, as it is any access to the goods shed involves shunting via the engine shed which could be very awkward. I said this because your plan showed a goods shed, now your latest plan just shows a coal stage, in which case the Barry slip is less of a problem. Quote 12 - Locks Nil 14 - Locks 8 14 locks 8 I don't think is enough, 14 should lock 7 as well to block a fouling move. 12 released by 7 and 8 prevents a move to the coal stage headshunt. Needs to be 12 released by (7 and 8) or 14. William, As I tried to say above I now agree with SM that 7 should have its normal the other way as you originally had it. I think losing the runround on platforms 2-3 is a sensible idea but you should re-instate the crossover out of platform 4 for shunting and to allow departures. And it looks good on your photo. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lacathedrale Posted October 3, 2020 Author Share Posted October 3, 2020 (edited) Thanks chaps - I was mistaken - the 1896 OS grid shows a building adjacent the engine shed with track running into it - but the 1874 plan issued by the railway company shows it's a lamp hut and the buffers stop well ahead of it - the gap between that road and the adjacent engine shed road has a square marked 'coal stage' - apologies for any confusion, it wasn't intentional! See below for a picture. @RailWest I wrote '16' in my text but I did mean 17. @The Stationmaster also - platform 4 and shunt signal 17 reads back onto the up main. I guess it should be on the opposite side of the track to read that way, sorry! It absolutely would cause a bunch of congestion, see the real plan below. Please let me review your info re: locking and I will reply - thank you!!! There is no ground signal 4, but I assume you mean 9? three starters and four shunting signals would make a good deal of sense! This is the original 1874 plan which shows a lack of runarounds and the arrival/departure only platforms - albeit with six roads (three bidirectional) instead of four roads (two bidirectional) of my plan. By 1896 the crossover I have chosen to omit between P3/4 on my plan (P5/6 on the real plan) was added, as was extending the outer lane of the throat through a slip to the up main to allow bidirecitonal running of all lines. But in this case, inefficiency is interesting as long as it's not wildly unrealistic so I've chosen to adopt the slightly earlier pattern. Edited October 3, 2020 by Lacathedrale Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RailWest Posted October 3, 2020 Share Posted October 3, 2020 If 17 reads 'wrong direction' on the Up Main, then you will need a Limit of Shunt somewhere on the Up Main to limit the movement. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lacathedrale Posted October 3, 2020 Author Share Posted October 3, 2020 Ah, perfect - to include then on my diagram somewhere but not on my layout (since that'll be off in my fiddle yard!) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Nick C Posted October 5, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 5, 2020 If you replaced 4 with a trailing crossover, you could then have all shunt movements using the down main (rather than those involving p4 having to use the up), no need for shunt 9, and (if it were real) two fewer FPLs Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LNERGE Posted October 5, 2020 Share Posted October 5, 2020 We’ve made a start this morning.. 6 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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