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Brighton belle


Mr chapman
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The Brighton belle, a luxury emu with full pullman service. I understand it took over from the steam hauled southern belle. But why just Brighton? With the Bournemouth and Kent electrification why weren't more 5BEL sets built for the golden arrow or Bournemouth belle? Or even a trial conducted? Given the love for third rail units it seems strange that the Kent mainline for example would use multiple units for boat trains but still rely on loco hauled services for the flagshit train. I think a 5BEL based golden arrow would have looked rather cool. 

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17 minutes ago, Mr chapman said:

The Brighton belle, a luxury emu with full pullman service. I understand it took over from the steam hauled southern belle. But why just Brighton? With the Bournemouth and Kent electrification why weren't more 5BEL sets built for the golden arrow or Bournemouth belle? Or even a trial conducted? Given the love for third rail units it seems strange that the Kent mainline for example would use multiple units for boat trains but still rely on loco hauled services for the flagshit train. I think a 5BEL based golden arrow would have looked rather cool. 

 

I don't think that 'cool' had been invented then. :)

 

John Isherwood.

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I think the answer is that the Brighton line was the flagship southern mainline. It was electrified in 1933 and the units were introduced at the same time. They were owned by the Pullman company (although the southern maintained them) and so it would have needed the Pullman company to invest too. I just think that the Kent line didn't have the same cachet. The Bournemouth Belle was  new in 1931, and so , why replace it? 

Keep the Brighton line special....

Ian

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2 hours ago, cctransuk said:

 

I don't think that 'cool' had been invented then. :)

 

John Isherwood.

 

It would be common, It's a word that came out of the Jazz era.  Particularly amongst the types that would have frequented the Brighton Belle.

 

Think more the idle rich Bertie Wooster types going to Brighton for the weekend and trying to keep up with American fashion. Whilst listening to Hoagy Carmichael and Cole Porter.

 

 

Jason

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4 hours ago, roythebus said:

No juice to Bomo until 1967 either may have caused a bit of a problem past Pirbright Junction. Juice didn't reach Kent Coast until late 1950s.


As pointed out, 3rd rail electrification to Bournemouth wasn’t completed until 1967, so that ruled out a electric Bournemouth Belle in 1933 and as for the Kent coast, not completed until late 50’s/early 60’s so again ruled out a 1933 electric Golden Arrow.

 

The London Victoria - Brighton line was seen as the “premier line” and given the high amount of celebrities, high society and royalty that travelled between the two at the time, hardly surprising that the Pullman Company had the 5-Bel’s commissioned.

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5 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

It would be common, It's a word that came out of the Jazz era.

 

The term predates the jazz era. It was only jazz that brought it into mainstream use.

 

The Golden Arrow got an entirely new train in 1951 before electrification was approved so it wouldn't have made economic sense to build another new train for the route only a few years later. But by then the top end of the market for train and ferry to Paris was disappearing anyway. If you had money, you went to Paris by air. Not sure of the exact date but towards the end only a small portion of the Golden Arrow was still a Pullman service.

 

By the time slidey rail reached Bournemouth, the Blue Pullman had tarnished the image a bit and there was a growing perception the Pullman supplement wasn't worth the price.

 

The new Pullman LHCS had some strange engineering decisions in it (e.g. vacuum braked only) and some strange timetabling decisions cut out potentially useful traffic. The Liverpool Pullman (really only half a Pullman) didn't last that long and the Manchester Pullman was not an efficient use of rollingstock for only 5 return journeys per week.

 

Cheers
David

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And in the late steam era there was a Thanet Belle and a Devon Belle, with observation car. Neither prospered long-term. The Bournemouth Belle went in 1967, and the Brighton Belle finished in 1972. Fussy, special rolling stock had no place in the modern railway, even in state ownership.  

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4 hours ago, jools1959 said:

The London Victoria - Brighton line was seen as the “premier line” and given the high amount of celebrities, high society and royalty that travelled between the two at the time, hardly surprising that the Pullman Company had the 5-Bel’s commissioned.

Hasn't the place fallen in status.

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9 hours ago, DavidB-AU said:

 

The term predates the jazz era. It was only jazz that brought it into mainstream use.

 

The Golden Arrow got an entirely new train in 1951 before electrification was approved so it wouldn't have made economic sense to build another new train for the route only a few years later. But by then the top end of the market for train and ferry to Paris was disappearing anyway. If you had money, you went to Paris by air. Not sure of the exact date but towards the end only a small portion of the Golden Arrow was still a Pullman service.

 

By the time slidey rail reached Bournemouth, the Blue Pullman had tarnished the image a bit and there was a growing perception the Pullman supplement wasn't worth the price.

 

The new Pullman LHCS had some strange engineering decisions in it (e.g. vacuum braked only) and some strange timetabling decisions cut out potentially useful traffic. The Liverpool Pullman (really only half a Pullman) didn't last that long and the Manchester Pullman was not an efficient use of rollingstock for only 5 return journeys per week.

 

Cheers
David

When I was researching my book on the 71/74s I cam across some documents which indicated BR did look at the possibility of creating some form of EMU from existing Pullman Cars for the Golden Arrow. It was decided after some discussion to fit the existing Pullman stock with ETH so it could work with the Class 71s.

 

Simon

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10 hours ago, Oldddudders said:

And in the late steam era there was a Thanet Belle and a Devon Belle, with observation car. Neither prospered long-term. The Bournemouth Belle went in 1967, and the Brighton Belle finished in 1972. Fussy, special rolling stock had no place in the modern railway, especially in state ownership.  

 

Corrected?

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1 hour ago, BernardTPM said:

Doesn't look like it.

I don't see today's pivate franchises falling over themselves to provide anything special.

Northern belle? Belmont Pullman? GB express? There's lots of them (at a price)

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18 minutes ago, BernardTPM said:

Are any of them new build?

Are any of them on 'normal' routes?

Their forerunner, VSOE ran while the railways were nationalised anyway.

Belmond, not Belmont, incidentally.

VSOE looked terrific as it trundled over the swing bridge at Folkestone Harbour in the early 1980's

 

Nick B

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By the time the slidey rail had reached Bomo and other places the BEL units were about life-expired anyway. They wouldn't have fared very well on the 750v of Bomo when they were designed for 650v! Light bulbs would have blown frequently and no doubt if cooking was by elctrickery, toast would have been regularly burnt!

 

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4 hours ago, Mr chapman said:

Interesting. I hadn't realised that the southern didn't actually own the units. I knew they were built by the pullman company but assumed that was built for the southern rather that leased. That's quite the rental! 

 

They weren't leased either. It was a complex contractual arrangement between the companies. Pullman provided the staff apart from the driver and guard. Even when PCC was bought by BTC, the Pullman and BR staff had different pay and conditions. From 1963 the Pullman stewards worked for British Transport Hotels rather than BR.

 

4 hours ago, roythebus said:

By the time the slidey rail had reached Bomo and other places the BEL units were about life-expired anyway. They wouldn't have fared very well on the 750v of Bomo when they were designed for 650v! Light bulbs would have blown frequently and no doubt if cooking was by elctrickery, toast would have been regularly burnt!

 

They could have been modified or fitted with new frames, just as they are now.

 

Cheers

David

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By the late ‘50’s, the Brighton express electric units, including BEL stock were becoming decided rough riding at speed.
Their replacements (eventually CIG/BIG units) were some years away and bogie refurbishment was an interim measure to extend the service life of these 1930’s trains. Nevertheless, they were still notorious for punishing the track with four heavy nose suspended traction motors per 59-62 ton (empty) motor coach.
Although the all-Pullman BEL units lasted longer (they were stored in WW2), passenger requirements were changing. However we like to dress it these days, an old fashioned flamboyant train was not seen as a necessity in the “Swinging Sixties” and quite out of place in the 1970’s. The commuter, residing on the South Coast wanted a reliable and relatively comfortable passage to and from the Capital each day. Reliable, the PUL/PAN/BEL stock certainly were, they’d proven their worth; but the ride, especially in those motor coaches was becoming decidedly lively.

A down, non-stop, clattering across Balcome Tunnel Junction (pre-alignment) to make up time could be a most exciting affair for a 12 year old enthusiast, honed ever more so knowing Dad was “up front”.

 

I digress.

I doubt their were many passenger tears shed when the Bournmouth Belle passed into history in ‘67; no cries of “where’s our Pullman service?” (albeit, that “service” having been provided by BR for some years before.
 

An up to date rendition of a regular exotic, “luxury” commuter train for the 21st Century may seem a pipe dream but you never know.......

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The Pullman Car company provided the catering staff for ALL trains with such facilities on the Southern's Central and Eastern (and possibly Western) Divisions, even where the rolling stock was wholly owned by the Southern Railway. As well as the Kentish Belle (and it's winter part-Pullman equivalent), Pullman Cars had continued to run in many trains (and not just boat trains) on the South Eastern Division - and Pullman Buffet Cars were used on the Hastings line almost until the DEMUs took over (and seven of them were 6Bs with a buffet car incorporated).

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