Smerty-Two

[Sturminster_Newton]

Can modern "tinplate" offerings run successfully on Peco Smerty-Two?

 

I have read that it is compatible so I assume that the 'coarse' scale 1.5mm flanged wheelsets will clatter through successfully.

 

A buddy of mine is about to put in a smerty-two loop as a tri-way standard for 16mm, O-gauge and O-gauge coarse the easier availability of 'set-track' in 762mm and 982mm radius corners will make the most of the limited space he has available.

 

I think he should be able to run Dapol class08 and Y1/Y3 sentinels on the larger radius corners with a few finescale O-gauge wagons.

 

It's always nice to encourage a=someone to test the O-gauge waters even if it is with coarse scale models.

[sncf231e]

As long as you do not use any points/switches/turnouts any combination of fine scale and coarse scale 0 gauge can run on code 200 32 mm track (like Peco SM32).

 

 

 

Regards

Fred

[goldfish]

On 23/09/2020 at 15:22, sncf231e said:

As long as you do not use any points/switches/turnouts any combination of fine scale and coarse scale 0 gauge can run on code 200 32 mm track (like Peco SM32).

 

Sadly this is not true for all legacy coarse scale 0 gauge. The design of the chairs is such that the flanges hit the chairs. Oddly, although the chairs on Peco SM32 interfere with Hornby plastic wheels, the chairs on Peco Streamline track don't.

 

Nice train by the way, I always enjoy watching fine scale plastic being dragged around at clockwork speeds.

Edited September 28, 2020 by goldfish
error in text

[Sturminster_Newton]

Many thanks.

 

Where does one find/obtain/purchase modern 3-rail track suitable for the old coarse standards?

[ikcdab]

I have peco SM32. My friend successfully runs all of her Hornby O gauge clockwork locos and stock on it very well. 

[Nearholmer]

Sturminster

 

This is a bit of a minefield, because wheel standards have evolved over the history of the hobby, and different manufacturers used different standards simultaneously. In the 1930s for instance, Leeds were working to quite fine standards, while Bassett-Lowke stuck with the coarser 1909 standards for a long time.

 

Tinplate track - will accept any of the older standards, because the points don't have any "frogs". Modern "tinplate" is designed to run on it and does (for example Ace, and ETS products commissioned for UK three-rail, but not some other ETS products, which have finer wheels).  In good, un-damaged condition it will also cater for G0G "coarse", but that is really pushing your luck. It can be bought new from Merkur in The Czech Republic (who have a UK agent who is a member here), and the secondhand supply is plentiful.

 

Atlas US track - their "solid" NS 3-rail track accepts a very wide range of old standard wheels and is very popular in the UK among vintage fans. The range is very wide. Gaugemaster are a stockist, but people building big layouts usually order from the USA and obtain a saving even when shipping, VAT etc is added.

 

Maldon - this is a British "cottage industry" (literally) track, which uses Peco Code 200 NS rail and ABS sleepers. It is effectively a replica using modern materials of Maerklin and Hornby solid-steel rail track of the 1930s. It will accept a very wide range of wheel types, and the point check-rails are easily adjustable, so that you can optimise to suit the "back-to-back" of the wheel-sets you most frequently run.  If you look at my thread, you can see what I run on mine with checkrails set for 27.5mm b-t-b.

 

Peco SM32 - works for modern "tinplate", but as said above not for all older stuff, and I have been told that some of the big modern tender locos get a bit tangled-up on reverse curves in the smallest radius of SM32 (tank engines are fine from what I've heard).

 

There are a stack of other options from the USA, but none are as popular or easy to obtain as the Atlas one I mention.

 

Kevin

[Nearholmer]

On 23/09/2020 at 13:46, Sturminster_Newton said:

It's always nice to encourage a=someone to test the O-gauge waters even if it is with coarse scale models.

 

Delete "even", insert "especially".

[goldfish]

On 24/09/2020 at 22:02, Nearholmer said:

Tinplate track - will accept any of the older standards, because the points don't have any "frogs". Modern "tinplate" is designed to run on it and does (for example Ace, and ETS products commissioned for UK three-rail, but not some other ETS products, which have finer wheels).  In good, un-damaged condition it will also cater for G0G "coarse", but that is really pushing your luck. It can be bought new from Merkur in The Czech Republic (who have a UK agent who is a member here), and the secondhand supply is plentiful.

 

On modern tinplate track from Merkur you can run everything from G0G "fine" to vintage coarse scale, if you have no points. The "all insulated" variety will cater for both 2 and 3-rail, the only problem is getting Merkur to actually manufacture it. In fact because of a quirk in the geometry, if Merkur track is in good condition you can actually run Scale 7 wheels on it. Albeit slowly, because they tend to bounce of at the track joints.

 

On 24/09/2020 at 22:02, Nearholmer said:

Atlas US track - their "solid" NS 3-rail track accepts a very wide range of old standard wheels and is very popular in the UK among vintage fans. The range is very wide. Gaugemaster are a stockist, but people building big layouts usually order from the USA and obtain a saving even when shipping, VAT etc is added.

 

There is wide variation in coarse scale wheels and some of those at finer end of the scale will not run through Atlas points reliably. The problem is usually that you can run reliably through the straight path, but not through the curved path.

Edited September 28, 2020 by goldfish
Error in text

[mervyn]

 Just a view from the cheap seats ,i use Peco sm32 Track for my 0 gauge tinplate ( 2 Rail) as well as fine scale stuff, but have had to remove the check rail on the points as my modern Basset Lowke wagons won't run thru as the check rail gap is to small .I have tried ETS 2 rail  track but again its a no go for my modern BL wagons so best check before you buy. As an aside there is a manufacturer ,Model Railway parts ,who makes replacement wheel sets for Darstaed /Ace stock to enable them to use fine scale track.

Edited September 27, 2020 by mervyn

[goldfish]

16 hours ago, mervyn said:

I have tried ETS 2 rail  track but again its a no go for my modern BL wagons so best check before you buy.

 

ETS 2-rail track is not really coarse track. ETS use completely different wheel sets for their 2-rail and 3-rail products. The 2-rail wheels have 1.5mm flanges but appear to be manufactured to NEM standards, and are finer than G0G coarse scale wheels. The wheels are easily replaced on any ETS manufactured wagons, but the 2-rail wheels are incompatible with coarse scale points. The main advantage of ETS track is the small radius points which allow an interesting shunting plank to be built in a confined space.

[Sturminster_Newton]

...but the 2-rail wheels are incompatible with coarse scale points...

 

And with smert-two what is the story there?

 

Will the ETS Adams Radial and Terrier make their way around smerty-two or is life simpler with ets track for these desired models?

 

Or does one start with ets 2 rail and run Mamod/Roundhouse live steamers on that to save a load of compromises?

 

There is not space to lay multiple track systems to cope with incompatible nature of the wheel standards.

[Nearholmer]

Below is the 16mm NGA wheel-set ‘recommended standard’, which works a treat on Peco and Tenmille SM32 track.

 

I have just quickly run a rule over an ETS loco commissioned for the UK three-rail market (an Ace M7 happened to be in the station), and so far as my eyesight and a hand-held steel rule can tell, it conforms to this ‘recommended standard’.

 

IMO, all of the discussion of ETS two rail track and points is a red-herring. They are designed for finer wheels, used as default by ETS on their products for the continental market. All British outline ‘Tinplate’ from ETS that is commissioned by UK suppliers (Ace, WJV, Raylo, Etc) comes with wheels that match the 16mm NGA ‘recommended standard’ unless one requests a ‘special’.

 

As I said earlier, the whole subject Of wheel and point standards for coarse 0 is a minefield, because there is no one standard, but a multiplicity of different standards. ETS recognise this, and when ordering one of their continental models (I bought an ex-German Army SNCF diesel) one is offered a choice of wheels, couplers and current collection.

 

 

Edited September 29, 2020 by Nearholmer

[Sturminster_Newton]

Looking at Newhomer supplied measurements and then at the 16mm Association wheelstandards from their website.

 

The dimensions look the same so current new ets/raylo/darstead tinplate rolling stock should have no problem with smerty-two track.

 

The whole set of standards it is a minefield of information and opinion and there is a lot of difference in the modus operandi of tinplate 3-rail pointwork compared to smerty-two.

 

I guess the only way to be certain is to invest a few sets of smerty-two points and curves and see what passes through by taking a facing/trailing junction to an exhibition and actually trying the models you intend purchasing on the track you intend using...

 

One lives and learns...

Edited September 29, 2020 by Sturminster_Newton

[Nearholmer]

27 minutes ago, Sturminster_Newton said:

The dimensions look the same

 

They would do, given that it is exactly the same drawing!

 

I thought I was very clear in my opening words:

 

1 hour ago, Nearholmer said:

Below is the 16mm NGA wheel-set ‘recommended standard’

 

[goldfish]

1 hour ago, Nearholmer said:

IMO, all of the discussion of ETS two rail track and points is a red-herring. They are designed for finer wheels, used as default by ETS on their products for the continental market.

 

Sorry, i was trying to clarify meryn's comment but only seem to created the confusion I was trying to avoid.

[Nearholmer]

It is worth bearing in mind that there is a difference between tinplate track and points, and what are commonly called tinplate trains.

 

Tinplate points (with few odd exceptions) have no "frog" or checkrails.

 

 

Tinplate trains can have wheels to any one of several standards, but in most cases those wheels are perfectly fit for both tinplate points and "proper" points with appropriate clearances, made from solid rail, with "frogs" and checkrails. Henry Greenly set the trend here, by designing a wheel profile specifically to work with either in 1909.

 

Many "tinplate train" fans, myself included, don't use tinplate track or points. Personally, I hate tinplate track and points - they look very "un-railwaylike", go rusty at the drop of a hat, get damaged very easily, and (this may be the real issue) I was forever hurting my fingers them when I was a child. IMO, the only case for using tinplate track is that it will accommodate a massive range of wheel standards, because it has no "frog" or checkrails, so is ideal for the eclectic antique train collector.

 

I think you can be confident that modern tinplate trains made by ETS for UK commissioners will run happily through SM32 point-work, but a trial to prove it to yourself can do no harm.

Edited September 29, 2020 by Nearholmer

[Sturminster_Newton]

Indeed I did wonder my computer only has a modest monitor so not everything is revealed without a lot of scrolling left and right as well as up and down. At least I am certain in my own mind that in the case of modern, read New, tinplate smerty two looks the way forward for my buddy's garden line.

 

Meanwhile I have surfed to Maldon's web site

 

https://www.maldontrack.com/index.php

 

and seen the delights of traditional tinplate track in all its glory.

 

One of the great joys of this hobby is that with a little research and assistance pretty much every potential relief of the swollen wallet can be sought out and enjoyed.

 

People smirk at my plastic tracked OO Wilton and Axminster yet on the Meldon website O-gauge carpet railway layouts are featured for purchase. There's a lot to be enjoyed when you strip back to the basics.

[Nearholmer]

56 minutes ago, Sturminster_Newton said:

Meanwhile I have surfed to Maldon's web site

 

https://www.maldontrack.com/index.php

 

and seen the delights of traditional tinplate track in all its glory.

 

But, Maldon don’t make tinplate track!

 

Turning from my desk to the shelf on the other side of the study, some Maldon track, with NS solid rail (no tinplate in sight), with tinplate trains on it. Notice how very different the point is in operaToon from the tinplate ones I posted above.

 

 

 

Edited September 29, 2020 by Nearholmer

[goldfish]

1 hour ago, Nearholmer said:

I have just quickly run a rule over an ETS loco commissioned for the UK three-rail market (an Ace M7 happened to be in the station), and so far as my eyesight and a hand-held steel rule can tell, it conforms to this ‘recommended standard’.

 

I don't know if this helps, according to an email I received from Len Mills. "ACE Trains standard (coarse) scale standards since 2006  are

Flange depth =  2.00mm, O/A wheel width = 6.0mm,  B - B = 27.5mm
Note: there were no strictly laid down and adhered to wheel standards from ACE Trains on items produced prior to 2006."

 

My ACE G5 seems to conform to these measurements.

[mervyn]

just to unmuddy the waters a bit all my stock  ETS/ ACE/ Basset Lowke  runs ok on plain SM32 Track it s when you try  to run it over the over points its gets a bit problematic, thats why I slide the check rail out and the stock runs thru the point okay , pity Peco don't do points with adjustable check rails as Maldon do just my experience of smerty2 for 0 gauge 

[Sturminster_Newton]

But, Maldon don’t make tinplate track!

 

XxxxX

 

But we don't want to muddle on tin plate track! If a heinous statement and crime worthy of burning at the stake that may be.

 

Just a track system that is reliable and enduring. The Maldon system of moulded sleeper fitted with Peco smerty-two n/s rail would suit both my buddy and myself for dabbling in the lounge/garden/shed/greenhouse. Using a mix of 16mm and/or 7mm coarse depending on our whim of the moment.

 

It is feasible to have modern TP models arrive ex-supplier suited to smerty-two rail profile then it looks as though that is a route worthy of experiment at an affordable price.

 

I don't see either of us being chasers after the original Hornby No1. But the proportions and presence of the current models and their more than acceptable appearance go a long way to providing satisfaction of ownership and operation.

 

Even if it is the ownership is just a rake of 6-wheel carriages and a Terrier on an oval of 0-31 or equivalent; or a Class03 with a selection of advert vans for a little shunting plank pleasure in the privacy of one's own shed/greenhouse/dining-room.

[goldfish]

On 23/09/2020 at 13:46, Sturminster_Newton said:

I think he should be able to run Dapol class08 and Y1/Y3 sentinels on the larger radius corners with a few finescale O-gauge wagons.

 

Going back to the original question. The Dapol Sentinel should run on the small radius SM32 curves with no problem, but officially Dapol locomotives need a minimum of 40" radius.  I doubt that Dapol wheels will go through the SM32 points, but I haven't tried it. Finescale wheels and coarse scale points don't normally mix.

[goldfish]

As there seems to be differing experiences reported abuot running Hornby plastic wheels on Peco SM32 track I have been doing a little rersearchg. The wheels on my small selection of Hornby wagons have a number moulded into the back of the disc, presumably this is the mould or machine number. Trying various combinations of wheel numbers has no effect, the flanges foul the chairs. However if you fit washers on the inside  of the wheels, as some people recommend, the problem is greatly reduced or completely disappears. The washers increase the back to back and the flanges are moved away from the protrusions on the chairs. This would seem to be the probable reason why different results are reported.