Wagons for a Brewery

[Matador]

Wagons for a Brewery? what wagons would have been used for a Brewery or a Whiskey Distillery.

 

David

A Yorshireman in the USA.

[doilum]

Coal: justification to run a gaudy PO wagon that takes your fancy, or has links to your ancestral roots.

Malted barley: vans or in sacks in open wagons with tarpaulins.

Hops: vans. Probably railway owned but linked to the south east.

Bottles: probably vans. In BR days an excuse for a shock van or two.

Final product: ditto. Pre war, perhaps an excuse to commission a couple of vans in the brewery colours.

Enjoy. One of my early layouts, Kirby Riverside, had a brewery to hide the fiddle yard. A wagon turntable might help entertain.

 

[Marshall5]

A lot depends on the period that you are modelling.  Up to, say, the late 50's which would suit your Peckett's time period it would be mainly 5 plank open wagons with barrels or 12t vans with sacks or crates of beer/boxes of whisky.  Not forgetting incoming 13t wooden or 16t steel minerals of coal for the boilerhouse.  In the area I model a brewery even brought in water from Burton on Trent in tank wagons like the Slater's square tar tanker kit.  I'm sure if you Google 'Burton brewery railways' or 'Speyside distillery railways' you'll find lots of photos.

Cheers,

Ray.  (Who should be flying down to Albaquerque this week but that's not happening due to Covid - Grrr.)

p.s.  I take it that you've seen the Green Leaf Brewery thread in 7mm+ modelling?

Edited September 24, 2020 by Marshall5
Additional info.

[Fat Controller]

In the 1960s, Bass- Worthington used 22t Tube wagons to carry beer-in-cask. There were some wagons that were in 'as built' condition, some with an extra plank around the sides, and some with removable plywood sides, for palletised loads. The first and last are available from Parkside. The prototypes often had colourful 'Bass' and 'Worthington' plaques The traffic stopped in the early 1970s.

Guinness used demountable road tanks, and then ISO containers, for bulk flows, and fitted vans for bottle and keg traffic. This traffic continued into the beginning of the 1990s, latterly being palletised and carried in air-braked vans.

Hops were carried in 'pockets' (large hessian sacks, about twice the height and width of a normal sack. These would be carried in vans; the roofs of which were sometimes covered with a wagon-sheet if there was the least doubt of their integrity.

[Matador]

Marshall5 : I live in Arizona an adjacent State, so to be correct its spelled "Albuquerque" a Beautiful state for sure. I,ll check out the website many thanks.

Edited September 24, 2020 by Matador

[Matador]

57 minutes ago, Marshall5 said:

A lot depends on the period that you are modelling.  Up to, say, the late 50's which would suit your Peckett's time period it would be mainly 5 plank open wagons with barrels or 12t vans with sacks or crates of beer/boxes of whisky.  Not forgetting incoming 13t wooden or 16t steel minerals of coal for the boilerhouse.  In the area I model a brewery even brought in water from Burton on Trent in tank wagons like the Slater's square tar tanker kit.  I'm sure if you Google 'Burton brewery railways' or 'Speyside distillery railways' you'll find lots of photos.

Cheers,

Ray.  (Who should be flying down to Albaquerque this week but that's not happening due to Covid - Grrr.)

p.s.  I take it that you've seen the Green Leaf Brewery thread in 7mm+ modelling?

I,ll take a look.

 

[Paul H Vigor]

After 1940 (?) the GWR converted some former cattle wagons into Ale Wagons for beer transport.

[nick_bastable]

Hops where carried sacked in open wagons

 

Nick B

[Regularity]

1 hour ago, Marshall5 said:

Who should be flying down to Albaquerque

 

1 hour ago, Matador said:

Marshall5 : I live in Arizona an adjacent State, so to be correct its spelled "Albuquerque" a Beautiful state for sure. I,ll check out the website many thanks.

Ah, you may have confused Albuquerque, NM, with “Albaquerque”, the strange (indeed quirky) version of Gaelic Scotland which is the home nation for Brigadoon, and for all I know, Craigshire, too..,

[Marshall5]

1 hour ago, Matador said:

Marshall5 : I live in Arizona an adjacent State, so to be correct its spelled "Albuquerque" a Beautiful state for sure. I,ll check out the website many thanks.

Of course it is, being married to an American I should know better.  Must've had a 'senior moment' there!  Best of luck with your project.

Cheers,

Ray.

[Matador]

37 minutes ago, Marshall5 said:

Of course it is, being married to an American I should know better.  Must've had a 'senior moment' there!  Best of luck with your project.

Cheers,

Ray.

Yup me too 30 years this year.

[Karhedron]

5 hours ago, Fat Controller said:

Guinness used demountable road tanks,

 

Fascinating vehicles. Guinness were the only company I know of to use them for beer. The other users were dairies who used them for milk transport.

 

[Zunnan]

Is there a particular period you're thinking of? Beweries/distilleries mostly used general merchandise wagons, specialist wagons weren't unheard of but were a minority. The type of wagon will be more relevant to the period than what its used for. A 16t steel bodied open will put it firmly after the mid-late '50s for example, while an all wooden chassis 5 plank open will be much older and be able to date further back. The type of brakegear and buffers in use will also have a bearing on period, a kit like the Ratio LMS (LNWR) 4 plank open wagon contains a kit which will date to pre-WW1, and coupled with the reintroduced Slaters Midland 4mm wagons you can build cheap vans and opens which date from the 1890s.

 

No matter which period you're looking at though, you can't go wrong with vans and opens with the opens being used for both fuel traffic and finished produce.

 

For a bit of variety, livestock vans were also used quite extensively and persisted for a long time.

 

Various covered hoppers haven't been mentioned, dependant upon the period being modelled these could be anything from what looked like a coke wagon right up to the more modern steel varieties.

 

Theres some pics in this thread from a few years ago, but I'd echo the above and have a google of sites like Burton on Trent breweries extensive internal network. There are also some videos on Youtube of this system.

 

 

[Aldgate Box Boy]

Hi David, as Ray was kind enough to point out my layout Green Leaf I thought I would add to the discussion.  One of the reasons I chose to do a brewery was because it offered so many wagon possibilities.  I don't know what gauge you are working in - I'm 'O' so there may be more possibility in 'OO'.

As people have said Coal, but also coke, and oil.

Hops traffic - and also spent grain and hops which was used as animal feed.

Barrels in wagons, covered wagons or vans

Parkside do a LMS Beer Van

As was said cattle trucks were converted for beer traffic.

There were beer tanks - both oo and o kits and RTR available

Then grain hoppers - Connoisseur do an LNER one and a more modern one from First Class Kits in o,  There are RTR in oo.

You could have wood for barrel making.

there was also Yeast traffic from some breweries Guinness sold their spent yeast to Marmite.  Don't forget brake vans.

Ian Peaty's Brewery Railways is worth a look.

best Tim 

[steve1]

If you're odelling 1960s, then there is this too.

 

https://peco-uk.com/products/br-ale-pallet-wagon

 

Converted from Tube wagons.

 

steve

[Aldgate Box Boy]

Hi David, some other layouts you might be interested in:

https://yeovilmrg.org/hobsons-brewery/

 

and my own 

Best Tim

[Matador]

Wow thank you all, Originally it was going to be O Scale but 8 x 2 would not do it justice.  I purchased a Peckett W4 in OO with sound that will do it for me.

The idea still being formulated is the end of a Branch where the main Employer in Town is a Brewery or a Whiskey Distillary late Steam early Diesel.

The  Brewery or Whiskey Distillary will be the centre of attraction with Branch traffic going back and forth to a hidden fiddle yard serving the afore mentioned,  a small Local passenger service will spice things up.

Going to use PECO Bullhead rail with a 1950,s theme (I was born in 46) so as the saying goes " Oh yes I remember it well" (most of the time), I left the UK in 83 so I have a lot of catching up to do.

When did Private Owner wagons fade away.

 

 

David

A Yorkshireman in the USA.

 

Edited September 28, 2020 by Matador
Added extra picture.

[Zunnan]

There isn't any hard and fast rules as it took time for the remnants of the PO fleets to fade away. But generally speaking immediately after WWII there were very few PO wagons other than tankers and there wasn't much funding available to build new fleets to replace them by their former owners.

 

The end for mineral PO wagons will have been a combination of the inception of the NCB in 1947 and the creation of British Railways in 1948 but the deathknell was sounded on 3rd Sept 1939 when they were requisitioned and pooled to meet wartime demands. Older wagons will have lingered in their increasingly battered and faded liveries with their old reporting marks patched out, but they were rapidly replaced by BR throughout the '50s. As an aside, prior to WWII various PO users were already pooling wagons through arrangements with the RCH dating back to WW1, this was indicated by a small yellow 5 pointed star.

 

Although they weren't nearly as common as mineral wagons, I would assume the same to be true for PO vans; pooled for the war and on the formation of BR made next to extinct. I could well be wrong, but I think the majority of PO vans remaining following WWII will have largely been in cement traffic.

 

Tankers were a different matter, they've carried PO markings fairly consistently and still do to this day.

 

If I were stocking a '50s layout myself, I'd go with a split of well beaten ex-PO and steel MOT wagons carrying the flaking remains of their old livery with patched out numbers for solid fuels, former Big Four and newer BR general merchandise opens and vans in BR livery and a few relevant PO tanks for bulk oils and foodstuffs.

[Nick Holliday]

10 hours ago, Zunnan said:

There aren't any hard and fast rules as it took time for the remnants of the PO fleets to fade away. But generally speaking immediately after WWII there were very few PO wagons other than tankers and there wasn't much funding available to build new fleets to replace them by their former owners.

 

The end for mineral PO wagons will have been a combination of the inception of the NCB in 1947 and the creation of British Railways in 1948 but the death-knell was sounded on 3rd Sept 1939 when they were requisitioned and pooled to meet wartime demands. Older wagons will have lingered in their increasingly battered and faded liveries with their old reporting marks patched out, but they were rapidly replaced by BR throughout the '50s.

 

As an aside, prior to WWII various PO users were already pooling wagons through arrangements with the RCH dating back to WW1, this was indicated by a small yellow 5 pointed star.

 

Although they weren't nearly as common as mineral wagons, I would assume the same to be true for PO vans; pooled for the war and on the formation of BR made next to extinct. I could well be wrong, but I think the majority of PO vans remaining following WWII will have largely been in cement traffic.

 

Tankers were a different matter, they've carried PO markings fairly consistently and still do to this day.

 

If I were stocking a '50s layout myself, I'd go with a split of well beaten ex-PO and steel MOT wagons carrying the flaking remains of their old livery with patched out numbers for solid fuels, former Big Four and newer BR general merchandise opens and vans in BR livery and a few relevant PO tanks for bulk oils and foodstuffs.

As you say, PO wagons were requisitioned by the Government in September 1939, but they still remained in the ownership of the various parties, and the RCH arranged for rental and repairs to be paid, as necessary.  During the war, the Government paid for new wagons to be built to replace written-off vehicles, and they were painted in suitable, simplified, livery. PO wagons existed up until the creation of British Railways.

Judging from the photos showing PO wagons during the war, the liveries usually stayed in good condition.  Most PO wagons were repainted every 3-4 years, and, has been pointed out elsewhere, company wagons were repainted every 7 years, so the bulk of PO wagons, at requisition, would have 3-7 years life in their liveries.  During the early war years, at least, it seems that there were sufficient resources to keep the wagons in good fettle, and it was only when actual damage was sustained that replacement wood work was un-painted or re-cycled from other wagons. After the war, perhaps because the morale was lower, standards slipped.  The weather paid its part, with severe conditions across the country, and resources were being re-allocated to rebuild the country for the returning heroes, not helped by the knowledge that the wagons were going to be nationalised.

Any pooling arrangements pre-war were more down to the owners.  Some collieries in an area banded together and pooled their wagons, sometimes adopting an over-arching name and livery, such as the Doncaster Collieries Association and the Welsh WAC grouping.  In these the wagons would all be returning to a restricted area, and often their customers were similarly closely located.

The yellow pointed star was nothing to do with pooling.  It showed that the owner had paid a very small annual fee (1 shilling per wagon) to pay for Commuted Empty Haulage. The low fee was acknowledgement by the RCH that they had arbitrarily changed their rules regarding empty haulage, which fundamentally was previously free of charge for almost all journeys, but in the thirties they decided that certain unusual trips would be charged for, to which the owners objected. And this CEH was the result. The empty trips to and from collieries were still free of charge if the distance travelled when full was the same.

The CC symbol that often appears alongside the star indicates that a Commuted Charge has been paid, again a nominal annual fee of around 1 shilling.  This was to cover any occasion where a faulty wagon has been placed in a siding awaiting repair. Normally, after a couple of days, a siding charge of 6 pence per day would be levied - this pre-payment covered these charges.

Edited October 4, 2020 by Nick Holliday

[Zunnan]

3 hours ago, Nick Holliday said:

The yellow pointed star was nothing to do with pooling.  It showed that the owner had paid a very small annual fee (1 shilling per wagon) to pay for Commuted Empty Haulage. The low fee was acknowledgement by the RCH that they had arbitrarily changed their rules regarding empty haulage, which fundamentally was previously free of charge for almost all journeys, but in the thirties they decided that certain unusual trips would be charged for, to which the owners objected. And this CEH was the result. The empty trips to and from collieries were still free of charge if the distance travelled when full was the same.

 

I'll have to find myself a more detailed reference source for the smaller details. https://www.igg.org.uk/rail/6-livy/odds/9-poliv.htm has been my go-to for years and is at odds with this, describing the star as a pool marker.

 

[Regularity]

I have found numerous assumptions and small errors in that resource and haven’t used it for years.

[Fat Controller]

1 hour ago, Zunnan said:

 

I'll have to find myself a more detailed reference source for the smaller details. https://www.igg.org.uk/rail/6-livy/odds/9-poliv.htm has been my go-to for years and is at odds with this, describing the star as a pool marker.

 

The 'Commuted Charge' symbol was a yellow square, with a C inside. There was a second 'c' inside the first, sometimes a quarter of the size of the first, sometimes much larger.