Trans-Europ Express 2.0 proposed

[DavidB-AU]

A network of international long-distance high speed passenger services spanning much of western Europe could be launched by 2025 if proposals announced by Germany’s Federal Minister for Transport Andreas Scheuer at a virtual conference of Europe’s transport ministers on September 21 are taken forward.

 

As with the original TEE trains, TEE2.0 services would operate only during the day, but Scheuer’s plans envisage that they would be matched by an expanded network of TEEN overnight links, reflecting the resurgence of interest in night trains that has built on the ‘flight shame’ movement in Scandinavia.

 

Proposed TEE2.0 services

TEE1/2: Paris – Brussels – Köln – Berlin – Warszawa

TEE3/4: Amsterdam – Köln – Basel – Milano – Roma

TEE5/6: Berlin – Frankfurt – Lyon – Montpellier – Barcelona

TEE7/8: Amsterdam – Brussels – Paris – Lyon – Barcelona

TEE9/10: Berlin – München – Innsbruck – Bologna – Roma

TEE11/12: Paris – Strasbourg – Stuttgart – München – Wien – Budapest

TEE13/14: Paris – Brussels – Hamburg – København – Stockholm

TEE15/16: Stockholm – København – Berlin – München

 

Proposed TEEN overnight services

EN21/22: Paris – Brussels – Köln – Berlin

EN23/24: Brussels – Köln – Berlin –Praha/Warszawa

EN25/26: Amsterdam – Köln – Basel – Milano – Venezia/Genova

EN27/28: Frankfurt – Strasbourg/Zürich – Mulhouse – Lyon – Montpellier – Barcelona

EN29/30: Berlin – München – Innsbruck –Bologna – Roma/Nice

EN31/32: Paris – Strasbourg – Stuttgart – München – Wien – Budapest/Zagreb

EN33/34: Paris – Brussels/Amsterdam – Hamburg – København – Stockholm

EN35/36: Stockholm – København – Berlin – Praha – Wien/Budapest

 

https://www.railwaygazette.com/passenger/trans-europ-express-renaissance-proposed/57409.article

 

https://www.businesstraveller.com/business-travel/2020/09/24/trans-europ-express-to-be-revived/

 

https://www.euractiv.com/section/railways/news/rail-boosted-by-eu-transport-chiefs-as-tee-2-0-planned/

 

Edited September 25, 2020 by DavidB-AU

[Welly]

Nice idea but this assumes that airlines have no long term viability in the future. Nightstar (and Eurostar destinations beyond Paris/Brussels) was canned before the carriages were even completed due to cheap flight competition.

 

The average traveller will endure a 2 hour Ryanair hop rather than spend 6 hours on board a train.

[Michael Hodgson]

13 minutes ago, Welly said:

Nice idea but this assumes that airlines have no long term viability in the future. Nightstar (and Eurostar destinations beyond Paris/Brussels) was canned before the carriages were even completed due to cheap flight competition.

 

The average traveller will endure a 2 hour Ryanair hop rather than spend 6 hours on board a train.

 

Plus the two hours hanging about in the departure terminal and faffing about with security checks and another hour waiting for baggage handling to lose their bags at the other end.

 

How people travel depends more on the fares than journey time.  They get up at silly o'clock to fly Ryanair mainly because it's cheaper than the traditional airlines and the trains.  They would change their minds if the green lobby eventually succeeds in persuading governments to subsidise heavily more than at present environmentally friendly transport and impose punitive taxes on the airlines.  Of course the real problem with a sleeper service is that you can't cram as many passengers to a carriage as Ryanair can into a fuselage,

 

Of course flying might become politically correct again if Elon Musk were to design a 747 that can use lightweight lead-acid batteries to flap its wings.

 

At least we won't still be under orders to stay at home by the time they've built these new supertains.

[Philou]

I see London doesn't figure much as a start/destination city. Is this deliberate or is there an economic reason for this? Forgetting London for a moment, is there any reason why A N Other UK city that is under the wires shouldn't be on the list especially regarding the TEEN proposals?

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

[Dagworth]

4 minutes ago, Philou said:

I see London doesn't figure much as a start/destination city. Is this deliberate or is there an economic reason for this? Forgetting London for a moment, is there any reason why A N Other UK city that is under the wires shouldn't be on the list especially regarding the TEEN proposals?

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

Probably because we are no longer part of Europe :-(

(free movement and passport checks among other issues of bringing the network to the UK)

 

Andi

Edited September 25, 2020 by Dagworth

[EddieB]

1 hour ago, Michael Hodgson said:

 

Plus the two hours hanging about in the departure terminal and faffing about with security checks and another hour waiting for baggage handling to lose their bags at the other end.

 

Not any more (at least in pre-Covid times).

 

With budget flights most people avoid checked baggage.  They either take the option of a small bag, or pay a supplement to take a larger bag on board with them and priority boarding.  With boarding cards printed at home (or downloaded to mobile phones), few need the check-in desks or baggage drops and just need to allow enough time to pass through security and navigate their way to the departure.  Two hours is no longer necessary.

 

Not just Ryanair - it's now common practice among the both the other budget airline and the model is being adopted increasingly right up to the flag carriers.

[EddieB]

Does this mean that Kraftwerk will be getting back together?

[jonhall]

2 hours ago, Welly said:

Nice idea but this assumes that airlines have no long term viability in the future. Nightstar (and Eurostar destinations beyond Paris/Brussels) was canned before the carriages were even completed due to cheap flight competition.

 

The average traveller will endure a 2 hour Ryanair hop rather than spend 6 hours on board a train.

 

6 hours? and the rest! nearly 15 currently, take out these two changes and you are still into over 14 hours on a train

 

 

Tokyo, Mexico City, Capetown, Buenos Ares..... the first three you can add 2 hours to get through the airport and still be under Paris-Warsaw by train...

 

Jon

 

[chrisf]

The success of this grand plan may well rest on marketing.  Nowadays, nowhere near enough effort is devoted to it.  The once very useful train from Brussels to Basel is a thing of the past.  It was useful because it stopped at nearly every blade of grass on the way, but this slowed it down rather too much.  I am wondering whether the proposed night network would do better than the daytime plan.  A year ago I sampled the sleeper from Zurich to Prague.  It saved one more night in a hotel but it would have been better arriving earlier than the crack of noon.  By its very nature it hitches a ride attached to a succession of trains and spends an awful lot of time going nowhere.  Realising that it is 03.30 and the train has got no further than Salzburg was a bit dispiriting!  Nonetheless I am encouraged to look out for other sleepers to incorporate in future journeys.

 

Some remarkable trips are already possible without the TEE razzmatazz.  Several times a day a German ICE turns up at Interlaken having originated at Hamburg or Berlin.  Nevertheless many cross-border trips are no longer possible.  I would like to see that process reversed, if only because I happen to like riding round on trains!

 

Chris   

[caradoc]

3 hours ago, Dagworth said:

Probably because we are no longer part of Europe :-(

 

In that case, neither are Basel or Zurich ! Leaving the EU, or not having been in it the first place, is/should not be a barrier to through train services. However the greater the distance, the greater advantage air travel has; For example, a couple of years ago I travelled from Glasgow to Berlin, by train this would have taken (at least) an entire day, assuming all connections were made; The flight took two hours.  So good luck with the plans, but passengers will vote with their feet, and wallets. 

 

 

 

[Dagworth]

7 minutes ago, caradoc said:

In that case, neither are Basel or Zurich

Switzerland is part of Schengen. They have free movement into and out of the EU. We used to have that freedom of movement too, although with border checks - alas no longer.

 

Andi

Edited September 25, 2020 by Dagworth

[BokStein]

8 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

 

Plus the two hours hanging about in the departure terminal and faffing about with security checks and another hour waiting for baggage handling to lose their bags at the other end.

 

How people travel depends more on the fares than journey time.  They get up at silly o'clock to fly Ryanair mainly because it's cheaper than the traditional airlines and the trains.  They would change their minds if the green lobby eventually succeeds in persuading governments to subsidise heavily more than at present environmentally friendly transport and impose punitive taxes on the airlines.  Of course the real problem with a sleeper service is that you can't cram as many passengers to a carriage as Ryanair can into a fuselage,

 

Of course flying might become politically correct again if Elon Musk were to design a 747 that can use lightweight lead-acid batteries to flap its wings.

 

At least we won't still be under orders to stay at home by the time they've built these new supertains.

 

The main precept behind long distance, high speed train travel is that the journey city centre to city centre should be 4 hours or less. By train this can be direct with no changes of transport. By plane, it includes:

 

City centre to airport (change transport)

arrival at airport to departure (change transport)

flight time

arrival at airport to leaving airport (change transport)

airport to city centre. (change transport)

 

ISTR that the Air France check-in desk for flights from Bruxelles to Paris was at Bruxelles Midi station; you were going by TGV!

[DavidB-AU]

For business travel, productive time is a factor too. You can use your phone and laptop the entire journey on a train but you can't when going by air. Eurostar had around 80% of the business travel market between London, Paris and Brussels pre-covid.

 

Air isn't always cheaper either. 5 years ago I went from Strasbourg to London on the last day of my European holiday. The cheapest flight would have been €199 if I had departed at stupid o'clock in the morning. Instead I went by TGV and Eurostar for €152... first class.

 

Cheers

David

[Sheffield]

Indeed. Last year i had to go from Western france into Poland. In terms of total journey time and cost it took the same time and very little more money to travel by train as by plane, including first class across Germany. And a lot more interesting. 

[Ian Hargrave]

On 25/09/2020 at 19:13, BokStein said:

 

The main precept behind long distance, high speed train travel is that the journey city centre to city centre should be 4 hours or less. By train this can be direct with no changes of transport. By plane, it includes:

 

City centre to airport (change transport)

arrival at airport to departure (change transport)

flight time

arrival at airport to leaving airport (change transport)

airport to city centre. (change transport)

 

ISTR that the Air France check-in desk for flights from Bruxelles to Paris was at Bruxelles Midi station; you were going by TGV!

 
Taking your point re: 4 hours city centre to city centre,one of Europe’s most interesting rail journeys...the Allgaubahn Munich to Zurich route via Lindau virtually hits that target from Sunday next with the introduction of six services per day In each direction of high speed SBB operated ETR high speed tilting electric units .End of the veteran Br 218 diesels.

Edited December 7, 2020 by Ian Hargrave
Adding text

[33052]

On 25/09/2020 at 15:01, Dagworth said:

Switzerland is part of Schengen. They have free movement into and out of the EU. We used to have that freedom of movement too, although with border checks - alas no longer.

 

Andi

The UK has never been a Signatory to the Schengen Agreement,hence the Border Checks,but is a Member of the CTA.It remains to be seen if there is any change from 01-21.