Queen Mary’s in use

[Guest Jack Benson]

Hi,
 

 

Currently, I am trawling the internet and printed media in order to understand the nature of goods traffic on the exLSWR WoE mainline with a particular interest in the Meldon stone traffic during the 50s. Unfortunately, whilst there are a number of images, most do not capture the rear of the train and I wondered in the Queen Mary’s were designed specifically for a special purpose, did this include the stone traffic?  
 

Incidentally the vehicles seem to crop up in the most unlikely of location in the 50s, hopefully a album can be created for RMweb.
 

As ever, cheers and stay safe

[Karhedron]

My understanding is that Queen Marys were designed to run an passenger trains speeds so tended to find use on services like boat trains or fast fitted freight. Another place they were popular was milk trains. Here is one such service calling at the Express Diary at Seaton.

 

 

[jim.snowdon]

Referring to Volume 4 of An Illustrated History of Southern Wagons, the clue lies in their official Southern Railway designation of 'Bogie goods brake vans, express service'. They were created in the early 1930s specifically to work with the Southern's fast fitted goods trains, for which the standard 4-wheeled vans were not considered suitable, partly due to their riding qualities at high speeds and partly due to the perceived difficulties of fitting vacuum brake equipment to them. Whether any turned up on the Southern's ballast trains from Meldon has to be a moot point. The bogie hopper wagons were vacuum braked and it would seem that they didn't exactly trundle about, so they could have been. None were recorded as being allocated to engineer's use, other than five of the original AC motor luggage vans, which were allocated to long welded rail train use. 

 

Jim

[Wickham Green too]

Many of the Queen Marys ended up with the Engineers in one capacity or another : -

 

 

...... but, of course that doesn't answer the OP's query and the mystery of what really went on at the back of our freights goods trains will forever remain a mystery !

Edited September 25, 2020 by Wickham Green too

[Guest Jack Benson]

Two related images, 

 

A ballast train with a brake van that is barely visible, any ideas?

 

 

 

And a QM at Dorchester in the mid 50s - R C Riley 

 

Thanks
 

 

[jim.snowdon]

50 minutes ago, Jack Benson said:

A ballast train with a brake van that is barely visible, any ideas?

 

 

 

It appears to be a standard BR 20T brake. It isn't an SR 25T van, nor any of the SECR pattern vans, nor can it be any of the LMS or GW types, not least as it has end platforms.

 

Jim

[jim.snowdon]

4 hours ago, Wickham Green too said:

Many of the Queen Marys ended up with the Engineers in one capacity or another : -

I believe one of their redeeming features for such use was the size of the verandahs - you could stow quite a lot of equipment there in without it getting in the way. The same was also true for the ex-GW vans.

 

Jim

[Guest Jack Benson]

22 minutes ago, jim.snowdon said:

It appears to be a standard BR 20T brake. It isn't an SR 25T van, nor any of the SECR pattern vans, nor can it be any of the LMS or GW types, not least as it has end platforms.

 

Jim

Jim,

 

Thanks, an Airfix/Dapol kit of a 20t BR brake is inbound, still a great kit. 
 

Cheers and Stay Safe

[hmrspaul]

Hasn't Jim solved this. The Southern had a lot of perishables traffic which was worked in fast fitted trains. There was the traffic from the continent picked up at Dover and a lot more from their port at Southampton. Although there is a general historical view that the SR wasn't a freight railway what it really was was not a mineral carrying railway. Instead it had a lot of traffic that needed rapid movement, that fitted in between the regular passenger services, and these vans were very useful for this. 

I admit that, as a kid of 10 - 12 years, I didn't notice what brake van was on the end of the freights passing through my home station in Staines, but there were a lot of them! Not little locals but the South Western traffic from Southampton, Weymouth (Channel Islands) etc to Feltham or direct throught to the huge goods sheds at Nine Elms hauled by S15s and Standard 5s. https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/srbogiebrakevan/e29ce0246  The SR needed a brake van capable of continous running at a decent speed between the passenger expresses and frequent, interval, passenger service. 

 

Paul

https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/srbogiebrakevan

Edited September 25, 2020 by hmrspaul

[Wickham Green too]

11 minutes ago, hmrspaul said:

....... The SR needed a brake van capable of continuous running at a decent speed between the passenger expresses and frequent, interval, passenger service. ...

... and that didn't smash the guard to pulp in the process.

[The Johnster]

The ‘normal’ 20t brake vans, LMS, Southern ‘Pill Box’, GW Toad, and LNER/BR ‘standard’, were speed restricted to 60 mph, though ECML drivers, who should have known better, often exceeded this with their fish trains.  As the vans on these trains were vacuum piped (not fitted) the guards used the General Appendix instruction that up to two fitted vehicles with the brakes working could be marshalled behind the van to steady the ride. 
 

Vans like the Pill Box and the LNER/BR with the ballast carried on platforms ‘outboard’ of the axles tended to be rough riders, as once they began to ride less steadily the position of the ballast made matters rapidly worse.  In about 1973, I rode from Cardiff to Hereford in a Southern ‘Pill Box’, which I considered frankly downright dangerous and advised my relief at Hereford accordingly.  He gave me the ‘kids terday, don’t know they’re born’ look but admitted when I ran into him again a few weeks later that I’d been right and he should have refused it, and that was with a 45mph train.  
 

THE LMS and GW vans were steadier riders, because the ballast was in a ‘tank’ between the axles, though of course a gap had to be left for the handbrake shaft.  
 

The bogie QMs were absolute paragons as far as riding was concerned despite the positioning of the ballast.  I only ever rode in one once, from Severn Tunnel Jc to Bristol East Depot; any van that could give a ride like that through the Severn Tunnel was praiseworthy indeed.  The ride was faultless, Pullman standard, though this, too, was a 45mph train. 
 

Whatever the van, the guard had to keep his wits about him for his own safety.  Handling loose coupled freight trains at main line running speeds was a highly skilled task for the driver, and keeping the couplings of a heavy 60 wagon train taut on an undulating route while running to time and not allowing the speed to creep up past the train’s limit (that of the slowest restricted wagon, of course), observing permanent and temporary speed restrictions, sometimes having to guesstimate when the rear of the train was clear of them, and anticipating signals, loops etc., without jerking the van around, was a big ask.  The guard sat in a seat with shoulder pads to absorb the shocks, and could reach the brake wheel from it.  If he had to get out of the seat, for example to exchange signals with the driver or attend to the tail lamps, the rule was the old sailor’s rule going around the Horn in a windjammer; one hand for the ship and one for yourself.  
 

A badly riding van, as well as making the guard’s life a misery, can cause stoppages and delays by shaking the tail lights out, and rapidly becomes cold and draughty because the violent rocking motion ‘works’ the van body and opens gaps.  Part of the guards unofficial but essential kit was yesterday’s newspaper, and the first half hour or so of the journey would be spent in finding the gaps and blocking them up. 
 

It was bad for the per way as well, and reduced the effectiveness of the brakes.  But in the 70s nobody gave a wossnim about the welfare of the guards; the men had put up with and accepted the most appalling conditions for years and matters had got worse after the advent of the 1969 single manning agreement which had guards signing on at loco depots with the drivers, an effect of which was that they no longer looked after their own vans.  So the vans were mostly filthy as well.  We were allowed 20 minutes to examine a train, including checking the van, and there was no time for housework.  Some yards kept standards up as best they could, and I will mention Radyr and Llantrisant, but mostly we had to fend for ourselves and forage for stove coal and even lamp oil.  At Margam you were lucky if you could find lamps!

 

The GW Toads had the brake wheel out on the veranda, which faced the direction of travel half the time, great fun with a headwind on a dirty winter night.  Despite this they were withdrawn on safety grounds in 1963 because there was no door in one end of the cabin. 

Edited September 25, 2020 by The Johnster

[Wickham Green too]

12 hours ago, The Johnster said:

....... The GW Toads ...... were withdrawn on safety grounds in 1963 because there was no door in one end of the cabin. 

.... but they did have an escape hatch !

[johnw1]

S56295 in the goods yard at Nottingham coupled I suspect on a train of 16 ton minerals in 1976

https://www.flickr.com/photos/pics-by-john/22433839693/

 

S56288 in departmental service at Bedford in 1978

https://www.flickr.com/photos/pics-by-john/33152139261/

 

 

 

[The Johnster]

Of sorts: I certainly reckon I could have got out that way if I’d had to!  GW toads were well built and draughtproof, but the guard had to go out on to the veranda to work the brake, which would have been better placed inside the cabin, and observe the train, which would have been better done from the safety of his seat through a lookout ducket.  The Toads were popular with WR guards but for the reasons above unpopular elsewhere, which suited the WR as any that got off region were promptly sent back on the next available working. 
 

By my time in the 70s, it was mostly BR LNER derived standards, derived from an NER type I believe, and a few LMS.  Of these, I thought the LMS were the better.  The short wheelbase NER 16t vans were probably fine for low speed local work but the 20t development with ballast in a position where it was bound to have induced rock and roll was a poor design, and I wondered why BR had adopted it when better balanced LMS and Southern types with end balconies and centrally placed ballast were available.  There was a bogie version of the LMS van but this was for a specific working.  
 

A drawback to the LMS type was that the cabin door opened inwards, which made the leading one difficult to draughtproof. The larger cabin took the stove longer to heat up on a cold night, and this must have been the case with the QMs as well.  The LNER design had outward opening cabin doors that were pressed tight against the jambs by the headwind, pity the rest of the van leaked draughts like a sieve, including up through the floorboards!

 

The stoves were brilliant, though; the amount of heat these tiny beasts could generate was incredible (just as well, it was needed).  Once under way, with the door closed and a strong draw from the top of the pipe, they were like little blast furnaces and it was possible to get them glowing bright orange.  Most had little bulges at the bottom of the body where the cast iron had got so hot it had ‘settled’; looking at my own shape I do not feel justified in criticising them...

[The Johnster]

17 minutes ago, johnw1 said:

S56295 in the goods yard at Nottingham coupled I suspect on a train of 16 ton minerals in 1976

https://www.flickr.com/photos/pics-by-john/22433839693/

 

S56288 in departmental service at Bedford in 1978

https://www.flickr.com/photos/pics-by-john/33152139261/

 

 

 

Nice shots, especially the first one of a van in typical ‘service’ condition.  Brake vans were ‘common user’ under BR, but the Southern Region understandably chased these paragons down if they got away, and I suspect S 56295 was on it’s way south fairly pronto, a brilliant ride for some lucky Toton guard!  
 

The perfect brake van; bogies, powerful, good ride, duckets, outward opening cabin doors, solidly built, hydraulic buffers, sand.  This is what BR should have adopted as standard for main line work, in anticipation of faster trains by the late 60s.  But they didn’t. 

Edited September 26, 2020 by The Johnster

[jim.snowdon]

21 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

By my time in the 70s, it was mostly BR LNER derived standards, derived from an NER type I believe, and a few LMS.  Of these, I thought the LMS were the better.  The short wheelbase NER 16t vans were probably fine for low speed local work but the 20t development with ballast in a position where it was bound to have induced rock and roll was a poor design, and I wondered why BR had adopted it when better balanced LMS and Southern types with end balconies and centrally placed ballast were available.

The entire underframe on the BR vans was full of concrete from one end to the other, although there may have been a bit extra at the ends. The same is true of most other railway's goods brake vans, although frequently the added weight was in the form of iron scrap and swarf from machining. I have seen it said that the riding qualities of the Southern Railway vans were not exactly ideal at higher speeds (hence the birth of their bogie brake vans). Something else to bear in mind is that the mechanics of what made rolling stock ride well were only barely understood back then, even more so when the effects of wear became involved. These days, vastly more is known about the effects that suspension design and wheel profiles have on the riding qualities of railway vehicles at higher speeds.

 

Jim

[The Johnster]

I can certainly attest to the appalling riding of a ‘Pill Box’ van in the 70s, the worst I ever rode in, and this was at a time when the overall standard was pretty bad.  My view was that the majority of vans in traffic at that time were not fit for purpose and many were borderline dangerous, and that poor design was the core reason for this, exacerbated by contemptuous standards of maintenance (the vans were only allowed 50p spends on them), and lack of care by the guards that used them.  The lack of actual accidents suggests that my view was a little overcritical, but I contend not by much. 

[Wickham Green too]

6 hours ago, The Johnster said:

..... The perfect brake van; bogies, powerful, good ride, duckets, outward opening cabin doors, solidly built, hydraulic buffers, sand. ......

What might look like hydraulic buffers are just self-contained spring buffers : the design was adopted by the S.E.C.R. and used on many wagon types - including the 'Dance Hall' brakes - but looks to be a near copy of the G.W.R. type.

[tomparryharry]

One of these was the last vehicle to be overhauled at Cathays Level 5 depot. I remember it being on the yard at Radyr. It looked splendid, and a real advertisement for what Cathays could do. 

[Guest Jack Benson]

Sorry to interrupt,
 

Can anyone identify the smaller ballast wagons, thank you?
 

Cheers and Stay Safe 

 

 

[Railfreight1998]

16 minutes ago, Jack Benson said:

Can anyone identify the smaller ballast wagons, thank you?

Dogfish?

[Nearholmer]

Dogfish possibly?

 

There were earlier SR and even I think late pre-grouping ones that look similar though.

[DavidLong]

I think that they are from a batch of Dogfish wagons built for Southern Region that have longer side chutes that enable discharge clear of the third rail.

 

David

[Sheridan Payne]

Thank you The Johnster for your very helpful information. I wonder, has anyone written a proper book on the Queen Mary's?, as they surely deserve one. I once read somewhere that the SR guards once commented that these wonderful bogeyed brake vans were 'fit for a queen' to ride on, and that is where the name comes from. Can anyone confirm this, as I've noticed that so many people ask where the name comes from. 

Also, given that the wooden bodies of planked brakevans could be prone to draughts as they got older, could this be a reason why some of the Queen Mary's bodies were part-plated, especially as these were for fast goods trains ie. the higher the speed, the stronger the draughts!! And of course the GW Toads were part-plated.

Edited January 9, 2022 by Sheridan Payne