Camp Hill line in Birmingham - new stations approved

['CHARD]

Great news for West Midlanders as planning permission is granted for the three new stations on the reopening Camp Hill line between Kings Norton and St Andrews Jcts.

 

Moseley is pictured, which makes good sense as a population centre currently reliant for public transport on congested bus routes (35 and 50), the others are Kings Heath in its original location (50 bus route again) and Hazelwell which is in a bit of a bus doldrums, and, from memory, this station will be suitably placed to serve the nearby secondary school. 

 

I hope where the odd original building remains (Hazelwell booking office maybe), that these aren't summarily destroyed or compulsorily purchased, as they're not strictly in the way of the new station infrastructure planned and constructed in line with contemporary regulations.

 

It's good to see this improvement making headway, the old GW route's rebirth from Moor Street to Smethwick Galton Bridge seems a long time ago now, and the only local things in the interim have been Coleshill Parkway and Kenilworth!

 

http://www.westmidlandsrail.com/news/planning-application-for-moseley-railway-station-submitted/

[Compound2632]

How are these stations to be served? With the cross-city line electrified for many years, there won't I suppose be any prospect of a New Street - Lifford circle?

[phil-b259]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

How are these stations to be served? With the cross-city line electrified for many years, there won't I suppose be any prospect of a New Street - Lifford circle?

The plan was to build a new chord and run the new service into Moor Street - which still has a disused platform face that can be put back into use.

 

New street and its approaches are too congested to take any additional services while avoiding the city centre (where most folk are heading to) puts a big dent in the BCR calculations.

[Compound2632]

6 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

The plan was to build a new chord and run the new service into Moor Street - which still has a disused platform face that can be put back into use.

 

... at Bordesley, over the canal. A bit of a squeeze but feasible I suppose. I note the linked article says New Street! And where would these services run out to? 

[45568]

13 hours ago, 'CHARD said:

iHazelwell which is in a bit of a bus doldrums, and, from memory, this station will be suitably placed to serve the nearby secondary school. 

 

I hope where the odd original building remains (Hazelwell booking office maybe), that these aren't summarily destroyed or compulsorily purchased, as they're not strictly in the way of the new station infrastructure planned and constructed in line with contemporary regulations.

 

 

That secondary school being King Edward VI Camp Hill School, my alma mater from Sept. 1962 to July 1969. A quick nip down to Hazelwell bridge from the Cartland Road entrance most evenings after school usually saw 2-4 trains within 30 minutes, then back up to catch the 11 home! A very busy line which ran across the bottom of the playing fields, it was a detention offence to cross said field to trainspot at lunchtime!

 I always take a run past Hazelwell when I'm back in Brum for  a UK holiday.

Cheers from Oz,

Peter C.

 

[TheSignalEngineer]

24 minutes ago, 45568 said:

That secondary school being King Edward VI Camp Hill School, my alma mater from Sept. 1962 to July 1969. A quick nip down to Hazelwell bridge from the Cartland Road entrance most evenings after school usually saw 2-4 trains within 30 minutes, then back up to catch the 11 home! 

 

My first job on the railway was restoring the connections to the Down Refuge points at Hazelwell following relaying of the Up line with CWR in 1966 but that was in the school holidays. 

My mother was born about 100 yards from Kings Heath station and my daughter was at Camp Hill Girls. In those days we lived on the 11 bus route in Hall Green.

[Joseph_Pestell]

8 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

The plan was to build a new chord and run the new service into Moor Street - which still has a disused platform face that can be put back into use.

 

New street and its approaches are too congested to take any additional services while avoiding the city centre (where most folk are heading to) puts a big dent in the BCR calculations.

 

That new chord seems to have been lost without trace. The maps shown currently have a "pan handle" service running through New Street and back down towards Bromsgrove/Redditch.

 

How that fits in with the current Cross-City service and the congestion at the east end of New St is not clear to me.

[45568]

1 hour ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

My first job on the railway was restoring the connections to the Down Refuge points at Hazelwell following relaying of the Up line with CWR in 1966 but that was in the school holidays. 

My mother was born about 100 yards from Kings Heath station and my daughter was at Camp Hill Girls. In those days we lived on the 11 bus route in Hall Green.

When I first went to CH I lived in Hall Green,  about a 5 minute walk to the 11, and a bit further for the 32, for the city, altho' we often walked to the station for the train to Moor St.

Moved to Moseley/Kings Heath in 1965, after which I walked to school mostly! I do remember a rake of wagons on that down refuge, complete with brake van. which we managed to sneak into a couple of times at lunch time for spotting and a ciggie,(both illegal). 55 years ago!

Cheers from Oz,

Peter C

[Jeremy Cumberland]

10 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

New street and its approaches are too congested to take any additional services while avoiding the city centre (where most folk are heading to) puts a big dent in the BCR calculations.

That was my first thhought, and I wondered if this plan relied on using the paths freed up by HS2.

[phil-b259]

19 minutes ago, Jeremy C said:

That was my first thhought, and I wondered if this plan relied on using the paths freed up by HS2.

 

More likely the plans have been tweaked to make sure they don't miss out on Government cash towards the new stations. From a HM Treasury point of view, new unstaffed stations are cheap and easy to do with no ongoing commitment - new chords or services requiring subsidy are far more problematic and rarely get funding.

 

Given there is no commitment to electrification the addition of extra slow DMUs onto the eastern approaches of New Street will not be easy accommodate while the need to continue to provide frequent fast WCML series to the likes of Coventry and Wolverhampton post HS2 means there won't be that many freed up paths via New Street.

Edited September 26, 2020 by phil-b259

[iands]

Good to know the three stations are going ahead. Just before I retired in March one of my last jobs was to review/check the telecoms designs for the stations before being submitted to NR for approval.

[caradoc]

14 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

How are these stations to be served? With the cross-city line electrified for many years, there won't I suppose be any prospect of a New Street - Lifford circle?

 

Given that these will have to be, for the moment anyway, diesel-operated, possibly an extension of Shrewsbury route services through New St ? Reducing platform occupation at New St but instead increasing congestion at the east end, and of course spreading delays should either end of the service be disrupted. 

 

[Compound2632]

33 minutes ago, caradoc said:

 

Given that these will have to be, for the moment anyway, diesel-operated, possibly an extension of Shrewsbury route services through New St ? Reducing platform occupation at New St but instead increasing congestion at the east end, and of course spreading delays should either end of the service be disrupted. 

 

 

But some shake-up of the timetable with implications for connections at New St and Shrewsbury, given that, as I suppose, the Shrewsbury trains don't hang around for long occupying platform space at New St. 

[Zomboid]

I guess once the line is up and running and presumably doing well, the bordsley curve can be looked at in a different light to how it is now.

[Compound2632]

5 minutes ago, Zomboid said:

I guess once the line is up and running and presumably doing well, the bordsley curve can be looked at in a different light to how it is now.

 

Well, if it's successfully running into New St, there would be no need. 

[Compound2632]

The Wikipedia article on the Camp Hill line includes a Feb 2018 quote from Andy Street suggesting, as I read it, that Hereford trains would provide the Camp Hill line service, so not requiring additional capacity at New St but as those trains at present run via the West Suburban line, he'd overlooked the issue of capacity at the east end of New St. 

 

HS2 providing an alternative London-Birmingham service could take pressure off New St if London-Coventry-Wolverhampton trains omitted New St by running via the Stechford loop and Grand Junction line!

Edited September 26, 2020 by Compound2632

[Joseph_Pestell]

36 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

The Wikipedia article on the Camp Hill line includes a Feb 2018 quote from Andy Street suggesting, as I read it, that Hereford trains would provide the Camp Hill line service, so not requiring additional capacity at New St but as those trains at present run via the West Suburban line, he'd overlooked the issue of capacity at the east end of New St. 

 

HS2 providing an alternative London-Birmingham service could take pressure off New St if London-Coventry-Wolverhampton trains omitted New St by running via the Stechford loop and Grand Junction line!

 

Or have fewer through trains from Wolverhampton to Euston and run some Euston - New St trains via the Grand Junction???

[Compound2632]

7 minutes ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

Euston - New St trains via the Grand Junction???

 

A significant %age increase in journey time. 

 

How about this for a grand scheme, that involves electrification of the Camp Hill line: a west curve at Aston (as originally proposed in 1860!) with Cross-City trains running alternately via Duddeston and the West Suburban, and via the Soho line and Camp Hill line - with scope for (re)opening stations on the west side of Brum too.

Edited September 26, 2020 by Compound2632

[Joseph_Pestell]

3 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

A significant %age increase in journey time.

Yes, for some passengers. But then that will make HS2 more attractive.

[Michael Hodgson]

23 hours ago, 'CHARD said:

Great news for West Midlanders as planning permission is granted for the three new stations on the reopening Camp Hill line between Kings Norton and St Andrews Jcts.

 

Moseley is pictured, which makes good sense as a population centre currently reliant for public transport on congested bus routes (35 and 50), the others are Kings Heath in its original location (50 bus route again) and Hazelwell which is in a bit of a bus doldrums, and, from memory, this station will be suitably placed to serve the nearby secondary school. 

 

I hope where the odd original building remains (Hazelwell booking office maybe), that these aren't summarily destroyed or compulsorily purchased, as they're not strictly in the way of the new station infrastructure planned and constructed in line with contemporary regulations.

 

It's good to see this improvement making headway, the old GW route's rebirth from Moor Street to Smethwick Galton Bridge seems a long time ago now, and the only local things in the interim have been Coleshill Parkway and Kenilworth!

 

http://www.westmidlandsrail.com/news/planning-application-for-moseley-railway-station-submitted/

 

Decades ago when I lived in Brum Hazelwell station was the home of the Birmingham MRC who met there one evening a week.  Quite good premises but for the problem of local youths breaking in and doing damage.  We had put steel sheeting over the boarded up windows and doors but the yobs then took to breaking in through the roof.

 

I remember the station approach was a bit dangerous turning off a hump-back potentially in the blind spot of somebody coming up the other side.

Edited September 26, 2020 by Michael Hodgson

[TheSignalEngineer]

I don't know the current thinking but regarding using the Hereford service it was proposed to revert to using the West Suburban line for the Bristol to Manchester services which are booked via Camp Hill (currently pandemic suspended). These currently take up a full platform path through New Street where they used to reverse in 5b or 7b when they came in via Selly Oak.

There were also proposals to make the Hereford service half hourly between Worcester and Birmingham. What will happen in the present situation is anyone's guess.

[Joseph_Pestell]

57 minutes ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

I don't know the current thinking but regarding using the Hereford service it was proposed to revert to using the West Suburban line for the Bristol to Manchester services which are booked via Camp Hill (currently pandemic suspended). These currently take up a full platform path through New Street where they used to reverse in 5b or 7b when they came in via Selly Oak.

There were also proposals to make the Hereford service half hourly between Worcester and Birmingham. What will happen in the present situation is anyone's guess.

 

This works in the context of the current "ambition" to only run 2tph service to these three new stations. But, as many are saying, a 2tph service is likely to be very inadequate, especially if that train is already full having started in Hereford.

 

The journey from Hereford to Birmingham is already rather slow.

[Compound2632]

9 minutes ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

The journey from Hereford to Birmingham is already rather slow.

 

But worth the wait once you get there.

[TheSignalEngineer]

My question on the service would be is it better to start by running a shuttle from New Street to Kings Norton Platform 4 which already has a signal northbound towards the Camp Hill line for moves coming from the old sidings. I would estimate the running time to be about 20 minutes including station dwell times en route. An alternative would be to run through to Longbridge and use the turnback there.

I can't see many takers for through journey from New Street to Kings Norton as it will take about 5 minutes longer than the existing Cross City trains. Existing passenger trains out via the Camp Hill line are allowed 12 minutes start to pass IIRC. Going in there are extra pathing allowances. Platforming at New Street needs careful arrangement as getting it wrong would mean crossing the southbound Cross City line service twice at New Street and Proof House. In the longer term it would also be an advantage to electrify and reopen the Down Main island platform for Redditch / Bromsgrove trains.

[phil-b259]

16 hours ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

My question on the service would be is it better to start by running a shuttle from New Street to Kings Norton Platform 4 which already has a signal northbound towards the Camp Hill line for moves coming from the old sidings. I would estimate the running time to be about 20 minutes including station dwell times en route. An alternative would be to run through to Longbridge and use the turnback there.

I can't see many takers for through journey from New Street to Kings Norton as it will take about 5 minutes longer than the existing Cross City trains. Existing passenger trains out via the Camp Hill line are allowed 12 minutes start to pass IIRC. Going in there are extra pathing allowances. Platforming at New Street needs careful arrangement as getting it wrong would mean crossing the southbound Cross City line service twice at New Street and Proof House. In the longer term it would also be an advantage to electrify and reopen the Down Main island platform for Redditch / Bromsgrove trains.

But can New Street (and its approaches) cope?

 

The whole point of the proposed Bordsey chord and running the new service into Moor Street was precisely to address said capacity / pathing issues with the added bonus that service frequencies could be increased relatively easily.

 

The latest incarnation involving diverting the regional Hereford service into New Street means there is going to be no possibility of service frequency increases, plus the other problems of northbound trains already arriving full etc.

 

I get that something may be better than nothing and as with the borders railway trying to do too much infrastructure work could jeopardise the BCR, but equally an overcrowded infrequent (by Cross City standards) service will also act as a barrier to usage which will still impact the BCR.