Spiked or Chaired ? French Narrow Gauge Track

[cisalpin]

OK, so I'm hoping to build some Om track to the correct gauge (23mm) and I've studied various photo's but nowhere can I find a definitive answer to whether the track should be spiked or have smaller versions of main line chairs.

 

I'm guessing that rail weight up to xxkg/m is spiked and over that figure chairs are used ?? If so, what are the relative weights and what would be the dimensions of these rail sections in 7mm:ft. I was hoping to use code 100 rail only because I have loads of it.

 

thanks

 

cisalpin

 

[PaulRhB]

I guess it probably depends on the line you’re modelling and the period. 
Google search for Resau Breton shows several images of chaired track, the Vivrais appears to be spiked or later bolts used like spikes. Also search pictures of Gordon Gravett’s Pempoul. 

[Pacific231G]

Hello Cisalpin and congratulations on your first post.

 

The overwhelming majority of France's thousands of kilometres of metre gauge lines, along with almost all SG light railways, were built with vignoles rail, screwed rather than spiked to the sleepers (I don't think I've ever seen any spiked track in France) but some of the  metre gauge d'Interet General lines (considered to be part of the national network) used chaired track with double champignon rail  (bullhead more or less ) including the Reseau Breton and the Blanc-Argent. Because they survived for far longer than almost all the local départemental railways these railways  tend to be better known so give a misleading impression of the proportion of metre gauge track that was chaired with double champignon rail.

Although the remaining section of the Blanc-Argent from Salbris to Valencay still used for publc transport and now operated by SNCF has largely been relaid with Vignoles (Flat Bottom) rail. The SABA preservation group who have reopened the southern part of the line from Valencay to  Argy as a Train Touristique have been on record as saying that that they intend to retain the line's heritage by sticking with chaired  double champignon rail. Whether double champignon (chaired) or Vignole (screwed) I don't think there was any difference of profile between rail used for metre gauge and standard gauge and, where dual gauge track was used, it would have had to be the same with the same crossing clearances etc.  Obviously the lighter railways used lighter rail whether SG or Metric.

These three example are from the yard at Romorantin on the BA including a section of dual gauge which shows the same rail profile and chair size and from the throat at Ecueille- the headquarters of SABA showing the check rail and crossing cleranances.

 

The image below taken at the Baie de Somme's steam festival in 2016 shows a fair knot of mixed gauge pointwork on Vignoles rail screwed to the sleepers and afain you can see that the rail section and crossing clearances are the same for both standard and metre gauge. 

 

Something I did notice at that event was that they had a Belgian SNCV petrol railcar running up and down the quayside at St. Valery. That was metre gauge but running across the CFBS pointwork  the wheels were dropping in the crossings which had to be taken very gingerly so clearly its tramway clearances and wheel profile was different from that of the CFBS.

 

You'll probably be able to get more help from members of the French Railways Society and it may well be worth contacting the editor of their Journal. 

 

 

Edited September 25, 2020 by Pacific231G

[cisalpin]

Interesting comments. I have since found this posting from "Steve" on National Preservation.com website:

 

I don't know the reason for the question but the weight of rail used will probably be determined by the availability of second hand rail in many cases. 35, 50 & 60 lb to BS 11 will be fairly common. The ORR give recommended maximum axle weights in RSP5, as follows:

56 The weight of rail to be used should be appropriate for the maximum weight (ie axle loading) and the speed of the trains prescribed in the approval or any subsequent direction issued by HMRI. If a mixture of locomotive types and rolling stock is used, the track should be suited to the longest and heaviest stock. Experience has shown the following weights of rail to be suitable for light railways operating at a maximum of 25 mph. Suitable rail weights for light railways
30 lb/yd 4 to 6 tons
35 lb/yd 5 to 7 tons
40 lb/yd 6 to 8 tons
45 lb/yd 7 to 9 tons
50 lb/yd 8 to 10 tons
55 lb/yd 9 to 11 tons
60 lb/yd 11 to 13 tons
65 lb/yd 13 to 15 tons
70 lb/yd 15 to 17 tons

It is also dependent on sleeper spacing. Although it does not say, I think that these are all based on a spacing of 2'-6" centres

[cisalpin]

So I've now found a chart, albeit showing American dimensions vs weights. Hopefully I can study this and work out something suitable for the new layout !

 

https://www.txholdings.com/rail_chart.php

 

[Pacific231G]

17 hours ago, cisalpin said:

So I've now found a chart, albeit showing American dimensions vs weights. Hopefully I can study this and work out something suitable for the new layout !

 

https://www.txholdings.com/rail_chart.php

 

If you let me know what sort of metre gauge railway you're considering, I can probably find a reference to the weight of rail used by examples of it. The Vivarais, PO Correze, Reseau Breton and Blanc-Argent - the first two FB and the latter two chaired bullhead- will have used heavier section rail than a typical local railway or roadside tramway, probably much the same as any other branch line. 

[Joseph_Pestell]

In places served by the Tramways de l'Aude, one still sees plenty of the FB 15kg/m rail that was "liberated" after closure. It is only about 70mm in height (I can check when I am next there) so only about Code 82 at 1:43.

 

As David says, "screwed" rather than spiked: tirefonds used are a type of coachscrew with a very coarse thread to grip into the softwood sleepers, a flange to grip the rail and a hexagonal head for tightening with a spanner. I am sure that an artisan producer made them (cosmetic?) for zero but I can't remember who.

 

Edit: Something like this:https://grabcad.com/library/tirefonds-1#!

 

Isn't Google amazing?

 

Edited September 26, 2020 by Joseph_Pestell
Add link

[cisalpin]

3D printed Tirefonds. Now that would be an extravagance given that only the top part is visible. I am currently experimenting with code 125 rail - which works out just under 6 inches deep in the real world - and hardboard nails as the screws because they have quite a chunky head.

Photo coming shortly.....

In answer to Pacific231G my aim would be to build a small station on the Vivarais or maybe the  Lozzere as I have a penchant for railcars, especially the De Dion ND.

 

[Joseph_Pestell]

4 minutes ago, cisalpin said:

3D printed Tirefonds. Now that would be an extravagance given that only the top part is visible. I am currently experimenting with code 125 rail - which works out just under 6 inches deep in the real world - and hardboard nails as the screws because they have quite a chunky head.

Photo coming shortly.....

In answer to Pacific231G my aim would be to build a small station on the Vivarais or maybe the  Lozzere as I have a penchant for railcars, especially the De Dion ND.

 

 

If you like railcars, the Cotes du Nord might appeal to you.

 

My copy of the book is, I think, crated up at the moment but I think it used fb with tirefonds.

[cisalpin]

No sniggering at the back - here is the test piece I've been working on today.

I located some 6mm x 2mm walnut stripwood at my local model shop and cut it into 45mm lengths. I then drilled it in four places and used Hornby track pins as my Tirefonds. (The hardboard nails turned out to be too large).

This test piece is just glued up with 2 part epoxy but when I come to make the real thing I think I will put a copper clad sleeper every 4th position and solder the code 125 nickel silver rail to it. The tirefonds or track screws are purely cosmetic.

Woodland Scenics coarse ballast looks about right, may be a tad too small ?

[Pacific231G]

23 hours ago, cisalpin said:

3D printed Tirefonds. Now that would be an extravagance given that only the top part is visible. I am currently experimenting with code 125 rail - which works out just under 6 inches deep in the real world - and hardboard nails as the screws because they have quite a chunky head.

Photo coming shortly.....

In answer to Pacific231G my aim would be to build a small station on the Vivarais or maybe the  Lozzere as I have a penchant for railcars, especially the De Dion ND.

 

That makes sense. The Lozere was laid with 25kg/m rail in 12m lengths with 15 sleepers per length some laid on stone ballast but most on a mixture of river gravel and sand. The Vivarais was laid on stone ballast mainly with 20Kg/m rail in 8m lengths on 10 sleepers but some of it on 26 Kg/m rail in 12m lengths on 15 sleepers so the same sleepering as the Lozere. Both railways used creosoted oak sleepers and, as both were conceded to the CFD, I would expect them to be reasonably similar in construction 

 

(Billard autorail 314 near Colombier-le-Vieux in 2003, CC Pierre Virot)

[cisalpin]

Going back to our chart it would appear that 25kg/m rail roughly equates to 55lb/yard rail ne'st pas ?  So code 100 should fit the bill nicely. 

[Pacific231G]

You may find these useful

These two pages are from what looks to be a fairly ancient catalouge from a company called L P

For the 26kg rail section, code 100 looks to be spot on at 1:43.5 scale.

This shows the Tirefonds screwed directly intowooden sleepers.

You may also find this useful. It's the sleeper spacings for the l'Ouest from about 1900 and I assume the metre gauge bullhead track was that used for the Reseau Breton.  The sleeper spacing seems to be the same for bullhead (double champignon) and for FB (Vignoles) 

It's not relevant to metre gauge but note that the standard gauge in France at that time was 1450 mm (4ft 9ins) rather than the current 1435mm (4ft 8.5inches) Since British rolling stock ran quite happily on the railways of France during the First World War, the extra half inch doesn't seem to have been a problem.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Joseph_Pestell]

I can't quite make out from those drawings whether the tirefonds have square or hexagonal heads.

 

Interesting to see that the clips are called crapauds - toads.

[Pacific231G]

4 hours ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

I can't quite make out from those drawings whether the tirefonds have square or hexagonal heads.

 

Interesting to see that the clips are called crapauds - toads.

Hi Joseph

I've never seen one that wasn't square headed. I think I 've got a couple of them somewhere and if I can find them I'll measure them but you'll find exact dimensions if you download the pdf from a company that makes them. 

http://www.patry.fr/tirefonds.html

Patry also sell rail and the cross sections and dimensions are in the pdf here. I'm wondering whether they're actually the same company, then with the L P logo, whose old catalogue pages I posted yesterday.   

http://www.patry.fr/rails-vignole.html

Their product range is quite interesting as, apart from rail and rail fixings, it's a bit like a modern Decauville catalogue with read made light railway track from 400mm to SG, locotracteurs (new and refurbished) wagon turntables etc.

Edited September 28, 2020 by Pacific231G

[Sheffield]

Although these were photographed a few weeks ago on a standard gauge line, now disued, they show the arrangement. Some at least of the fishplates were L angles, drilled to take fixing screws. Almost all of the screws had the figure 3 on their head, with a few 13. In a few places  where the screw had lost its grip a casting had been fitted.