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What locomotive have I just bought (and what can be done with it)??


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Hi. Picked this up today from a charity shop for a nominal fee. I mostly do American N scale and must confess to some gaps in knowledge when it comes to British locos. Obviously it's an 0-6-0T but beyond that I'm lost ... is that GWR livery? 

 

I think this is OO gauge. Possibly Hornby. There were some old Hornby wagons with it. The couplers are a weird bendy metal of some sort now completely mangled. 

 

Can anyone identify the model and/or prototype? 

 

I doubt it will ever run, though I'll give it a clean and lubricate and see - what I was thinking was to decog the wheels from the motor and use it as a push-along either for me or some small relatives as a Christmas present (we shall see). Is this at all easy to do without destroying it? 

 

Also any advice on a source for OO buffers (it only has one left) and can you get OO link and pin couplers?Because I've thought it might be fun to try that. 

 

Many thanks!

IMG_20200927_163428_081.jpg

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Just put in Triang buffers on ebay and the first ones to come up were these which are the most common loco and carriage buffers fitted to Triang locos of that time.

 

392908380054

20200927_194352.jpg

Edited by Londontram
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2 minutes ago, andyman7 said:

It's not repainted, they were actually made in that rather weird green colour......

The photo is a bit dark, but it does look close to the original colour that HD produced it in.  Take the body off and you'll see the original colour inside, people seldom paint inside when they're repainting!

 

I think they were sold separately, but they were the loco in the HD 2 rail 2007 trainset with two tinplate carriages.

 

image.png.a403797459cec92797c78b2c4589e5e0.png

 

Good luck with getting it to go, the magnet is usually dead so it won't pull the skin off a rice pudding...

 

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16 minutes ago, andyman7 said:

It's not repainted, they were actually made in that rather weird green colour......

 

I know that they made green ones (mine were black) but that one looks repainted to me. Could just be a poor photo.

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Bachmann make the perfect coaches for this loco, though they are not cheap; £84.99 SECR ‘Birdcage’ stock in BR Southern Region Malachite green.  The loco scrubs up well enough with a coat of black paint and new tranfers for the numbers and crests, and I believe there are etched chassis kits available.  If you don’t want to go to that sort of length, the chass is is of fairly simple construction and can be worked up with Romford/Markits wheels and a replacement motor and gears.  
 

Aside from the coaches, pretty much any freight stock that was around in the 50s or early 60s is suitable, with a Southern brake van being most likely (but not the bogie Queen Mary). 

Edited by The Johnster
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The eothern ex SECR R1 class was a very small class by BR days, some had cut down cabs and chimneys for the Whitstable and Canterbury line and others were employed as bankers on the Newhaven (?) harbour branch, sometimes three to one train. None were green and  I doubt any hauled a passenger train except boat trains up the incline.   They run nicely but with the weird wheelbase the chassis isn't much use for any other locos, though people did put Gaiety GW Pannier bodies on them.  Not the cleverest selection of a prototype to model. Southern tended to use 0-4-4T locos for local passenger apart from the Terrier tanks at Hayling Island etc tended t use its very few 0-6-0 tanks as Shunters.

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Does it run and how well?  You may need to have the motor magnet flashed to restore to full strength magnetic field,  both the R1 and Dublo  diesel shunter were reliable locos, but could suffer from overheating of their armature windings if the motor magnet was down on field strength.

 

 

Edited by Pandora
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4 hours ago, Pandora said:

Does it run and how well?  You may need to have the motor magnet flashed to restore to full strength magnetic field,  both the R1 and Dublo  diesel shunter were reliable locos, but could suffer from overheating of their armature windings if the motor magnet was down on field strength.

 

 

 

That's not the R1 motor. The  R1 has the 1/2" armature detachable motor, like a better engineered XO4 which won't take a cube magnet as it needs a central hole for the fixing screw. However you can buy the correct size super neo magnet or if you are tight fisted like me you can use lots of little super neo magnets in a stack, either insulated with card or brass or  packed with steel depending on taste. Strong magnets kill the bearings and sound rough as hell, weak ones give lousy performance and overheating.  To be honest I have almost no dead 1/2" Hornby Dublo magnets they seem to slog on and on.  Upright ones like the Video don't last anything like as well.      The Diesel shunter is awful as standard with a Ring Field motor and a 120MPH plus capability, not as fast as a Triang but less controlable..  Romford 60:1 gears transform it but getting the fly cranks and wheels off to fit them is not for the faint hearted.

 

Thanks @Olddudders,  I was getting me Jography wrong 

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The chimney cap is missing. Wrenn had some spares (at least until recently) available on eBay and I believe a white metal replica is available.

The couplings (tinplate) should be sprung (originally by a piece of what appeared to be bicycle valve tubing).

I have several of these and as stated above they all run well on their original magnets

 

The real 31340 had the leading sandboxes under the running plate and was never afflicted with this horrible green colour. Early examples have the number 31337 on the smokebox door (the number of the Black version, which did have the sandboxes as modelled.

 

The real thing was used on the Folkestone Harbour incline in multiple (usually two or three in front and one banking in rear) , so suitable rolling stock would be ex Southern Railway and BR Mk 1 corridor coaches. It would be an excuse to use the Wills track cleaning wagon.

 

https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=https%3A%2F%2Fi.pinimg.com%2F736x%2F80%2F9d%2F46%2F809d463a532fe92e38262610376cb323.jpg&imgrefurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.pinterest.co.uk%2Fpin%2F517914025895154428%2F&tbnid=Ag5upgWW4S2JEM&vet=10CAMQxiAoAGoXChMIoPHWiuWL7AIVAAAAAB0AAAAAEAI..i&docid=zP1Nyt1LwJ-d4M&w=598&h=374&itg=1&q=Folkestone Harbour&client=firefox-b-d&ved=0CAMQxiAoAGoXChMIoPHWiuWL7AIVAAAAAB0AAAAAEAI

 

http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/f/folkestone_harbour/index3.shtml

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8 hours ago, Pandora said:

Does it run and how well?  You may need to have the motor magnet flashed to restore to full strength magnetic field,  both the R1 and Dublo  diesel shunter were reliable locos, but could suffer from overheating of their armature windings if the motor magnet was down on field strength.

 

 

That N1 is never going to run well on those oval wheels...

 

I would replace the wheels and gears with Romford/Markits, giving it flanged centre drivers and 40:1 gears, fit wire handrails and vacuum hoses, paint it black, replace couplings with the type of your choice, real coal in the bunker, glaze the cab windows, hide the motor as best you can with crew figures, and use it as a yard pilot or local trip freight loco.  With 40:1 gears you should find it a powerful and smooth runner with excellent slow control.  You could cut the skirts beneath the boiler between the tanks and the smokebox, at the risk of exposing the gears which will draw attention to themselves by moving...

 

Gilding the lily would be to replace the chassis with a Wills/Southeastern, which will give you brake and brake rigging detail; if you are going that far it makes sense to give her sprung buffers.  

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19 hours ago, The Johnster said:

That N1 is never going to run well on those oval wheels...

 

I would replace the wheels and gears with Romford/Markits, giving it flanged centre drivers and 40:1 gears, fit wire handrails and vacuum hoses, paint it black, replace couplings with the type of your choice, real coal in the bunker, glaze the cab windows, hide the motor as best you can with crew figures, and use it as a yard pilot or local trip freight loco.  With 40:1 gears you should find it a powerful and smooth runner with excellent slow control.  You could cut the skirts beneath the boiler between the tanks and the smokebox, at the risk of exposing the gears which will draw attention to themselves by moving...

 

Gilding the lily would be to replace the chassis with a Wills/Southeastern, which will give you brake and brake rigging detail; if you are going that far it makes sense to give her sprung buffers.  

 

Are the Romford gears a straight fit or is some motor padding required?

 

Meccano Ltd. in a fit of extreme economy and, despite using an all new chassis block, saw fit to use the N2 coupling rods (a large stock of the things to use up?) so the R1 chassis has an incorrect wheelbase (the rods from the A4/Duchess/Castle would have been nearer). The wheels of the real thing were 5' 2" in diameter, so the model also has undersize wheels (19mm), though Dublo did tend to the correct diameter over flanges philosophy.

 

Some pictures of the prototype here:

 

https://mikemorant.smugmug.com/Trains-Railways-British-Isles/SR-and-BRS/SECR-tank-engines/

 

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On ‎27‎/‎09‎/‎2020 at 17:21, LMS Bess said:

...I doubt it will ever run, though I'll give it a clean and lubricate and see - what I was thinking was to decog the wheels from the motor and use it as a push-along either for me or some small relatives as a Christmas present (we shall see). Is this at all easy to do without destroying it? ...

What you propose is very easy. Remove and bin motor, job done on the loco.

 

But now see all the interest in correcting this old clunker's many deficiencies!

 

What you do is flog it to someone who wants to spend a lot of money, and buy the small relatives Brio or Lego, which is likely to be far better received.

 

 

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It would appear that no-one has answered one of the original questions (or did I miss it?). To remove the motor, unscrew the pickup assembly. This will reveal two screws which will release the motor. Selling it on eBay will probably recover at least what the model cost in the first place.

 

The service sheets are here (1 and 3 are relevant). (Usual disclaimer.)

 

http://www.mtrains.co.uk/dublo-service-sheets/

Edited by Il Grifone
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I have a Wrenn chassis that has been fitted with romford wheels. I've used the body to put on one of the etched brass chassis, still in the workbox to be finished. I picked up a HD green one a while ago as I lost the Wrenn one, now the HD has gone missing...

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7 hours ago, Il Grifone said:

Are the Romford gears a straight fit or is some motor padding required

Should be straight fit, both Romford and HD manufactured to BRSMB standards and Romford/Markits still have the gears in the range.  The worm fixes to the motor shaft (1/16” dia./worm internal bore IIRC) by a

slot headed grub screw, and the cog to the axle (1/8” dia./cog internal bore) by the same method.  You only need to loosen the grubs, don’t remove them as they are easily lost.  

You may want to replace wheels at this stage to have a flanged middle set; if you do this, the loco may have difficulty with setrack curvature.  You’ll be ok with a minimum radius of 2’.  The wheels are a force fit to the axles, and can be levered off with a flat blade screwdriver; replacing them square to the axle is precision hammer work on a proper solid flat datum surface.  If you want to replace the wheels, replace the axles as well as you can use the Romford/Markits axles and fittings to quarter the wheels and fix them square on the axles.  You will then have to use R/M crankpins, and it seems daft not to finish off with matching R/M axle end covers!

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Replace the motor, replace the wheels, replace the buffers, replace the couplings, replace the wiring and then some, what you end up with is great expense and the models originality and value is gone, we have to remember these like smokey joe were toys meant for children and were built to be rugged/strong, i'd just get it working as good as you can with the stock parts and tidy up the bodywork etc

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3 hours ago, The Johnster said:

Should be straight fit, both Romford and HD manufactured to BRSMB standards and Romford/Markits still have the gears in the range.  The worm fixes to the motor shaft (1/16” dia./worm internal bore IIRC) by a slot headed grub screw, and the cog to the axle (1/8” dia./cog internal bore) by the same method.  You only need to loosen the grubs, don’t remove them as they are easily lost.  

You may want to replace wheels at this stage to have a flanged middle set; if you do this, the loco may have difficulty with setrack curvature.  You’ll be ok with a minimum radius of 2’.  The wheels are a force fit to the axles, and can be levered off with a flat blade screwdriver; replacing them square to the axle is precision hammer work on a proper solid flat datum surface.  If you want to replace the wheels, replace the axles as well as you can use the Romford/Markits axles and fittings to quarter the wheels and fix them square on the axles.  You will then have to use R/M crankpins, and it seems daft not to finish off with matching R/M axle end covers!

The H/D worm is a single start and has the same internal bore as a Triang or Romford.  It is soldered to the armature shaft bnot force fit or secured with a grub screw. The gearing as standard is around 35:1.  The worm is larger O/D than the Triang worm and I have used one on an XO4 in the past.    The H/D worm wheel larger than a Romford 40:1.  I have never seen the point changing to Romford gears as one side of the gear boss has to be sawn off and the other side slimmed down to fit the gear wheel so some considerable bodgery is needed to fit Romford gears and the R1s run nicely as standard, even when fitted with larger wheels like my 22mm wheeled S15.   Locos run best wen the gear wheel is shimmed to stop sideways movement by shims each side of the gear, not between centre wheels and chassis as that works the wheels loose.

Romford wheels are a good idea, I use Triang coupling rod screws which fit the wheels but the pointy end needs filing off and the rods can be opened up to take them, may need spacers to keep the rods away from the tyres, I use the rims off Romford top hat pin point bushes as washers.  Flange less centre drivers are probably best, my old 64XX on an R1 chassis with all flange wheels struggled with 2ft radius..  Even the non flanged centre wheels need pickups as the H/D centre wheels are under size and don't touch the track while the Romfords do and when they are on a hump there is no contact if the insulated centre wheel has no pick up.  Mine have a wiper on the tread, seems to work (for past 20 years or so)

Edited by DavidCBroad
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