Wells motor train - carriages

[Compound2632]

A while back I mentioned a photo in S. Austin, Somerset & Dorset Joint Railway - a view from the past (Ian Allan, 1999) p. 54, showing the Wells motor train in May 1950, starring 0-4-4T No. 58046 with an ex-LNW driving trailer diagram M71, converted from a cove roof brake third, diagram D338:

The caption mis-identifies that carriage as an ex-S&DJR carriage. I have recently seen a mid-1930s photo of the Wells motor train with 0-4-4T No. 1303 and a genuine Highbridge-built carriage converted to driving trailer. Comparison with the information given in R. Garner, The Somerset & Dorset Joint Railway Locomotive and Rolling Stock Registers (The Somerset & Dorset Railway Trust, 2000) shows that this must be S&DJR lavatory composite No. 28, built at Highbridge in 1913 and outlasting by some margin the majority of Highbridge-built carriages, being withdrawn in Feb 1946. Garner has Derby official photos DY 2348 and DY 2347 of this carriage and lavatory composite No. 34; the latter has had its original end luggage compartment converted to a third class coupé compartment with end windows, which Garner says "probably took place during the early 1920s". However, in the Derby Registers listing, both photos are dated 4 June 1913. If that date is correct, they would have been taken when No. 28 was nearly new but both carriages lack the shine of freshly-varnished paintwork. So, a bit of a puzzle there?

 

No. 28, as well as being the last Highbridge-built carriage, was also the only one 48 ft long over end panels, 46 ft having been the standard length. On the basis of DY 2348, I've produced a sketch:

These carriages had panelling to the standard dimensions used by Thomas Clayton for Midland carriages from c. 1875 to 1896, which had been adopted as standard at Highbridge. However, in getting a good match to the photo it became apparent that compartment sizes were a bit less than the Midland standard dimensions of 7'3" for firsts and 6'0" for thirds, measured between partitions. They have to come down to about 7'0" for firsts and 5'10½" for thirds. Illumination was by gas, with a lamp over the centre of each compartment and a lamp offset from the centre-line for the lavatory compartment. There were two large torpedo ventilators to each compartment, along the roof centre-line at the positions marked on the sketch. 

 

The Wells photo shows the same side of the carriage as DY 2348, with the RH end with the three third class compartments next to the engine, so the driving compartment was converted from the third class compartment at the LH end in the sketch. Close inspection reveals an end widow, visible through the compartment widows, presumably similar to the end windows provided for the coupé compartment of No. 34. The next third class compartment has been given double doors and the first class compartments drastically rebuilt, but whether as a guard's compartment and luggage space or as a saloon, is unclear. Of the three third class compartments at the RH end, the middle one has had its door sealed up. It looks as though the partition between this and the end compartment has been removed; the RH quarterlight of each carries a "Smoking" label. (Or would it be "No Smoking" by the mid 30s?) The carriage is electrically-lit, with some torpedo ventilators removed:

D. Bradley and D. Milton, Somerset and Dorset Locomotive History (David & Charles, 1973) p. 65, give a brief history of S&DJR motor trains in the context of the history of the Avonside 0-4-4Ts. Apart from some unsuccessful experiments in 1906 with a LSWR railmotor, and then with 0-4-2ST No. 25A and "a bogie carriage", motor trains first made their appearance in August 1927, using the Midland / LMS vacuum-controlled system: "No. 55 and a composite bogie carriage were suitably modified at a cost of £280 and set to work on the Burnham line. [...] in May 1928 Nos. 30A, 31A, 32 and 34 with extra coaches were similarly equipped for use on the Wells branch and from Templecombe to Bournemouth. The latter proved very unpopular with the regular passengers and were withdrawn after a few months, but the Burnham, Bridgwater and Wells branches were so operated for many years."

 

The Avonside tanks were withdrawn soon after 1930 - they were older than all but the very first of their Midland 0-4-4T brethren - to be replaced by a succession of motor-fitted 1532 Class 0-4-4Ts, the history of which is well documented. The carriages of course seem to have escaped such attention but from Garner's register, I think it can be inferred that the late surviving Highbridge-built bogie carriages were the ones in use on the motor trains. In addition to No. 28, these are Nos. 55 (withdrawn Oct 1943), 57 (Sept 1946), 96 (Sept 1942), and 115 (Oct 1945), all 46 ft brake thirds. The three branches concerned kept their passenger services until 1951 or 1952. I suspect that the driving trailers converted from S&DJR carriages were withdrawn when ex-LNWR driving trailers became available, perhaps due to wartime reductions in service elsewhere on the LMS. 

 

So, I'm wondering if there is any other information about on these Highbridge-built carriages converted to motor train use?

Edited July 1, 2022 by Compound2632
Images re-inserted

[Iain.d]

Hi Stephen,

 

Thanks for putting this forward, its some interesting research.

 

I don't have much on the motor trains on the S&D 'branches'; there's a picture on p.51 of The Somerset & Dorset Files No.4 showing  Johnson 0-4-4T 58047 hauling a single Push & Pull carriage towards Wells, I can't make out the carriage number entirely (maybe M24468). The date is suggested as 'sometime in 1951'.

 

More interestingly, on p.53, there's an image of a four vehicle mixed train in the bay platform at Priory Road comprising a 6 wheel van, carriage, tank vehicle and box van. I've often wondered about the heritage of the carriage in this train. I've never thought it was a former LMS (or one of its usual constituent vehicles) or a LSWR type. It crossed my  mind it might be a former S&D carriage. I've read they'd all been withdrawn by 1930 but would date this photo post 1930.  This carriage looks very similar to the lower sketch you have produced above. The door and door vents layout look similar, there could even be a end window visible and it looks like the penultimate compartment door has been sealed up. The truss rodding attached to the solebar is quite prominent, not something I've seen on many carriages. Not sure if it would be a brake third or a motor trailer. The picture is undated but from the R.M. Casserley Collection.

 

Kind regards,

 

Iain

[Compound2632]

2 hours ago, Iain.d said:

I don't have much on the motor trains on the S&D 'branches'; there's a picture on p.51 of The Somerset & Dorset Files No.4 showing  Johnson 0-4-4T 58047 hauling a single Push & Pull carriage towards Wells, I can't make out the carriage number entirely (maybe M24468). The date is suggested as 'sometime in 1951'.

 

Many thanks Iain for these extra "sightings". 58047 was of course formerly 1303, the engine in the photo I was discussing - it was allocated to Highbridge twice, with a ten year gap 1938-48, during most of which time it was allocated to Gloucester, working motor trains on the Nailsworth branch.

 

The nine ex-LNWR driving trailers to diagram M71 were numbered 24461 and 24475-82 [D. Jenkinson, LNWR Carriages (2e, Pendragon, 1995) appendix 3]; 24460, 24462-68, and 24470-73 were conversions made in 1934-5 of LMS standard Period 2 and Period 3 57 ft brake thirds, originally diagram D1735 [R.J. Essery and D. Jenkinson, The LMS Coach (Ian Allan, 1969) p. 86]. The number of the ex-LNWR vehicle might be decipherable in the photo in Austin's book if one had a larger print; the best I can do with much squinting is to convince myself that the second a third digits are probably both 4! It's easy enough to distinguish between an ex-LNWR cove roof carriage and an LMS standard 57 ft carriage, so which type is it in the photo with 58047?

 

2 hours ago, Iain.d said:

More interestingly, on p.53, there's an image of a four vehicle mixed train in the bay platform at Priory Road comprising a 6 wheel van, carriage, tank vehicle and box van. I've often wondered about the heritage of the carriage in this train. I've never thought it was a former LMS (or one of its usual constituent vehicles) or a LSWR type. It crossed my  mind it might be a former S&D carriage. I've read they'd all been withdrawn by 1930 but would date this photo post 1930.  This carriage looks very similar to the lower sketch you have produced above. The door and door vents layout look similar, there could even be a end window visible and it looks like the penultimate compartment door has been sealed up. The truss rodding attached to the solebar is quite prominent, not something I've seen on many carriages. Not sure if it would be a brake third or a motor trailer. The picture is undated but from the R.M. Casserley Collection.

 

That train can't have been working as a motor train - if running as a mixed train, it would have to be worked with the engine leading. With the Midland/LMS vacuum control system, it would be a simple matter to disconnect the control hose and run with the driving trailer as an ordinary carriage. No fiddly mechanical linkage to adjust, unlike the Great Western autotrain system. 

 

What you say about the underframe trussing strongly suggests this is another sighting of No. 28. Comparing of the two Derby official photos in Garner, the 46 ft carriage No. 34 has some rather discreet queenpost trussing attached, I think, to the underside of the solebar whereas No. 28 has rather more substantial trussing with the ends of the diagonals bolted to the outside face of the solebar. In the Wells photo I was discussing, No. 28 has had its lower stepboard between the bogies removed (a standard modification to older carriages in the LMS days), which makes the trussing more prominent.

 

The S&DJR coaching stock was divided between the Southern and LMS in 1930. Southern records survive (forming the basis of much of the information in Garner's Registers) but not those for the LMS, so the fate of stock that past to the LMS is not known - my reading of Garner is that only the batch of 6-wheel thirds built by the Oldbury Co. in 1886 and some of the identical Cravens thirds of 1891 went to the LMS - they were virtually the only S&DJR carriages to be of a standard Midland design. All other surviving 4 and 6-wheel stock was withdrawn by the Southern, mostly in March 1930. The Highbridge-built bogie carriages were retained for a few years - presumably they continued to provide the ordinary services on the main line, until replaced by the well-documented Southern three-coach sets. Apart from the probable conversion to motor train driving trailers that I listed, they had all been withdrawn by 1939. A further probably unanswerable question is whether any of them, including the driving trailer conversions, were painted green. It's not possible to make out any markings in the photo of 1303 with No. 28. 

 

2 hours ago, Iain.d said:

The Somerset & Dorset Files

 

I've had a quick look on the Irwell website and second-hand dealer websites but the scope of this series isn't apparent to me - do they provide much coverage of the pre-Ivo Peters period, especially pre-Great War? My ideal S&DJR Album would contain no photos of Bulleid light pacifics!

Edited September 28, 2020 by Compound2632

[Compound2632]

Re. mixed trains on the Wells branch, another photo in Austin's book, p. 94, taken on 21 April 1951, shows 58086, chimney leading, with an LMS Period 3 driving trailer converted from full brake, three opens, and a goods brake. Was there a longstanding one train a day that was mixed? The balancing working would have to have the engine bunker first, with the driving compartment of the carriage next to the engine, obviously not working in motor train mode.

[Iain.d]

14 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

It's easy enough to distinguish between an ex-LNWR cove roof carriage and an LMS standard 57 ft carriage, so which type is it in the photo with 58047

 

 

I've had a quick look on the Irwell website and second-hand dealer websites but the scope of this series isn't apparent to me - do they provide much coverage of the pre-Ivo Peters period, especially pre-Great War? My ideal S&DJR Album would contain no photos of Bulleid light pacifics!

 

I think the image of the Push & Pull trailer approaching Wells Priory Street (p.51 of The Somerset & Dorset Files No.4) is a Period 2 style. I have seen a couple of images of mixed trains on the Wells branch, there's one in Ivo Peters' An English Cross Country Railway and there's another in one of the other Somerset & Dorset Files books. I'll have a look when I get chance. I think there are some in the Alan Hammond series of books too; trouble is many of these images, while great for the stories written and historical content, are of a lower quality.

 

I bought the six Somerset & Dorset Files after they went out of print, but managed a couple of new ones from bookshops by chance and the rest through eBay and the Book Depository. There's not much pre WWII stuff in them but I think they are a great series of books, very informative, many unpublished and well captioned photographs. There is lots of detail in terms of workings on the S&D, station locations and operating procedures - plenty of images without moving trains too. Certainly worth their money - there are though, lots of images of Bulleid light pacifics...

 

Will send / have sent you a PM.

 

Kind regards,

 

Iain

[Compound2632]

Just as a holding post while research continues, here's a photo of Bachmann's non-motor-fitted 58072 with an ordinary non-pull & push Period 2 D1735 brake third. The caption states that this is a Bridgwater train at Edington Junction on 4 August 1952 - the summer before closure of the Bridgwater branch. It surprises me that if the Wells branch was worked by a motor train up to its closure (29 Oct 1951) the motor train wasn't at least transferred to the Bridgwater branch for economy of operation.

Edited September 30, 2020 by Compound2632

[RailWest]

15 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

......It surprises me that if the Wells branch was worked by a motor train up to its closure (29 Oct 1951) the motor train wasn't at least transferred to the Bridgwater branch for economy of operation.

The branch train would still have had to shunt between platforms at each end of the journey (unless the railway indulged in expensive signalling alterations at a time when no doubt the 'writing was on the wall' for the Branch already), so the use of a motor-train would only have saved the actual engine run-round moves.

[03060]

22 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

Just as a holding post while research continues, here's a photo of Bachmann's non-motor-fitted 58072 with an ordinary non-pull & push Period 2 D1735 brake third. The caption states that this is a Bridgwater train at Edington Junction on 4 August 1952 - the summer before closure of the Bridgwater branch. It surprises me that if the Wells branch was worked by a motor train up to its closure (29 Oct 1951) the motor train wasn't at least transferred to the Bridgwater branch for economy of operation.

 

I've got a couple of books to hand at the moment regarding the Bridgewater branch and I'm sure that there was an article in an old S&DRT magazine regarding the Wells branch train which I will try and find (probably won't be until the w/end though) .....I'll report back if I find anything of note.

 

Regards,

Ian.

[Compound2632]

@Iain.d has kindly sent me copies of a couple more photos of Wells branch motor train photos, along with details of a couple more. These might duplicate the ones you are thinking of, @03060 - if you have additional photos, they will be interesting to test the conclusions I'm reaching in this post. Chronologically:

1. From the R.M. Casserley collection of Wells Priory Road station. In the bay platform is a carriage that appears to be identical to the carriage discussed in my OP. It's flanked by a six-wheel fruit or milk van that I think has rather an ex-LB&SC look to it and a tank wagon, beyond which is an ordinary LMS goods van with corrugated end. There's no date but it being from the Casserley collection does suggest pre-WW2. I was mildly frustrated to find that this view is of the same side of the carriage but Iain justly points out that photographs are taken from the sunny side, so we inevitably see the south-eastern facing side of a carriahe on the SW-NE aligned Wells branch [M. Smith, The Somerset & Dorset Files No. 4 (Irwell Press, 2008) p. 53]. 
2. No. 1303 and carriage shunting at Wells, undated, certainly the same as the photo I was discussing in my OP [A. Hammond, Heart of the Somerset and Dorset (Millstream Books, 2002) p. 149].
3. No. 58047 propelling a Wells to Glastonbury service with ex-LNWR auto coach 24477 (one of the ex LNWR ones) at Polsham on 1 April 1949, with a 4-wheel van behind the locomotive - not a true mixed train since the van is vac braked - tail traffic [A. Hammond and C. Hammond, Heyday of the Somerset and Dorset (Millstream Books, 2008) p. 43]. The carriage is very likely the same one as in the May 1950 photo of 58046 I mentioned above [Austin p. 54]. 
4. No. 58047 again, approaching Wells with a single LMS Period 2 brake-third turned driving trailer, number probably 24477, "some time in 1951" [M. Smith, The Somerset & Dorset Files No. 4 (Irwell Press, 2008) p. 51]. The carriage is almost certainly the same one as appears behind 58086 in the 21 April 1951 mixed train photo I mentioned above [Austin p.94].

Putting together all these photos, I think one can postulate the following history of Wells branch driving trailers:

1. From the introduction of motor train working in May 1929 to no later than February 1946: SDJR Highbridge-built 48ft composite No. 28 converted to driving trailer.
2. From the withdrawal of No. 28 until at least May 1950: ex-LNWR 50ft cove roof brake third to diagram D338, converted (in LNWR days) to driving trailer diagram M71, No. 24477.
3. From the withdrawal of 24477 until the withdrawal of the Wells branch passenger service at the end of October 1951, ex-LMS Period 2 57ft brake third to diagram D1735, converted in 1934/5 to driving trailer, probably No. 24468.

[03060]

Still a work in progress looking for this 'supposed' article in S&DRT mags...but..... I have just remembered about a 13pp article in Steam Days (April 2012) titled 'The Glastonbury to Wells Branch' which has 2 photos of 58047 and a single coach (depicting both sides, loco has BR s/box number but LMS legend.)

Photo 1 (1949) credited to Don Powell Collection and photo 2 (undated) to W.A. Camwell. Not being a coach expert (I rely heavily on you !) and looking at the roof profiles and number of compartments I would say that they are of 2 different coaches. One has a flatter roof, 5 comps + 2 windowed guard section whilst the other has a more rounded roof, 6 comps +3 windowed guard section.

 

There is another distant shot of an LMS train approaching Wells .... loco, coach (windowed for full length), possibly an SR parcel van and another van at the rear.

 

The best (in my opinion) for last ....is that there is a very good photo of a S&DJR push and pull coach (4 end windows and 2 vac type pipes) at Wells taken from the shady side looking into the station. 3/4 of the coach is outside of the trainshed, great end detail, loco behind and sandwiched with a bogie van (coach) and 6 wheel van behind. (Authors collection (Colin Maggs.))

 

This is possibly the article that I was thinking of but I will keep looking through the S&DRT mags, having drawn a blank so far. These mags and articles have been gathered in attempts to find photos of 0-4-4t loco No.12 which will probably be my next S&DJR loco modelling project.

 

Regards,

Ian.

 

 

[Compound2632]

11 hours ago, 03060 said:

Still a work in progress looking for this 'supposed' article in S&DRT mags...but..... I have just remembered about a 13pp article in Steam Days (April 2012) titled 'The Glastonbury to Wells Branch' which has 2 photos of 58047 and a single coach (depicting both sides, loco has BR s/box number but LMS legend.)

Photo 1 (1949) credited to Don Powell Collection and photo 2 (undated) to W.A. Camwell. Not being a coach expert (I rely heavily on you !) and looking at the roof profiles and number of compartments I would say that they are of 2 different coaches. One has a flatter roof, 5 comps + 2 windowed guard section whilst the other has a more rounded roof, 6 comps +3 windowed guard section.

 

 

Many thanks, Ian. These first two photos sound like these, already mentioned:

 

On 01/10/2020 at 22:01, Compound2632 said:

@Iain.d has kindly sent me copies of a couple more photos of Wells branch motor train photos, along with details of a couple more. These might duplicate the ones you are thinking of, @03060 - if you have additional photos, they will be interesting to test the conclusions I'm reaching in this post. Chronologically:

1. [...]
2. [...]
3. No. 58047 propelling a Wells to Glastonbury service with ex-LNWR auto coach 24477 (one of the ex LNWR ones) at Polsham on 1 April 1949, with a 4-wheel van behind the locomotive - not a true mixed train since the van is vac braked - tail traffic [A. Hammond and C. Hammond, Heyday of the Somerset and Dorset (Millstream Books, 2008) p. 43]. The carriage is very likely the same one as in the May 1950 photo of 58046 I mentioned above [Austin p. 54]. 
4. No. 58047 again, approaching Wells with a single LMS Period 2 brake-third turned driving trailer, number probably 24477, "some time in 1951" [M. Smith, The Somerset & Dorset Files No. 4 (Irwell Press, 2008) p. 51]. The carriage is almost certainly the same one as appears behind 58086 in the 21 April 1951 mixed train photo I mentioned above [Austin p.94].

 

11 hours ago, 03060 said:

There is another distant shot of an LMS train approaching Wells .... loco, coach (windowed for full length), possibly an SR parcel van and another van at the rear.

 

The best (in my opinion) for last ....is that there is a very good photo of a S&DJR push and pull coach (4 end windows and 2 vac type pipes) at Wells taken from the shady side looking into the station. 3/4 of the coach is outside of the trainshed, great end detail, loco behind and sandwiched with a bogie van (coach) and 6 wheel van behind. (Authors collection (Colin Maggs.)

 

These sound like very good candidates for additional photos of ex-S&DJR No. 28.

Edited October 3, 2020 by Compound2632

[03060]

The photo of the S&DJR coach also appears in one of the Trust mags but the caption says from The Lens of Sutton collection, so may be more readily available (?)