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Dublo and Tri-ang 00 and TT comparisons


Silverfox17
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1 hour ago, Il Grifone said:

 

I was merely stating what Tri-ang replaced their N2 with. The diesel shunter was made by both companies, though only Tri-ang made a clockwork one. There is no comparison between the Tri-ang and Dublo diesels however. The latter actually looks like its prototype!

One can stretch a point and compare the Dublo 2-6-4T (excellent for the time) with Tri-ang's 2-6-2T (dimensionally challenged)* .  Since they made a new block for it, I would have thought it cheaper to use the Princess motion they already had and which would have been nearer to scale (mysteries of the faith?).

* I forgot there's also the TT ex-GWR prairie tank (again excellent for the time). The TT range seems generally to have enjoyed rather more care in its design than the 00 one.

Not quite in my opinion David.  All 3 locos were different and not made by each other or scale and I am trying to get similar like for like. Would you say any pacific should be compared as they all have a 4-6-2 wheel formation? I know the Pullman sets all had different locos but the post was about Pullman sets made not the loco. I will do a separate one for the Castle later as it was made by Tri-ang (TT only) and Dublo. The goods sets were 0-6-0 ones irrespective of Jinty/R1, I did not include the 3-rail in the combined comparison.  The Jinty will come later as only made by Tri-ang in 00 and TT. You could compare the large tank goods sets and passenger sets then the 2-6-4 and 2-6-2 would be fine but I do not have the Tri-ang 2-6-2 set to use.  Both locos were in goods and passenger sets but I dont have either passenger variation.  I am trying to get posts where people actually have the comparison items themselves and not just using photos from everywhere. 

 

Garry 

Edited by Silverfox17
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7 hours ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

Is that from the Triang notes with the locomotive from when it was first issued?

 

Mike.

Tri-ang didn't provide prototype notes with their locomotives, only maintenance sheets. That was a much later idea, started with Mainline IIRC.

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Both Dublo and Tri-ang (00 only not in TT) made working TPO sets which differed greatly.  Dublo's was electrical whereas Tri-ang had a mechanical one.  Dublo had a 3-rail one which had a single track piece the length of a full straight which had both hook and bin on.  A raised rail allowed contact with the short arm protruding from the mail coach underfame centre and when energised by the push button the two "doors" opened allowing a mailbag to be collected and or dropped off.  Everything was metal which was the usual case with 3-rail items.  When 2-rail was available the base became a separate plastic one which clipped to the track but still had the raised rail and hook/bin on but the mail coach now had a nylon wheel fitted on one side of each axle, operation was the same.  The mail bags were metal and could be thrown with some force and at odd times did get trapped in the base of the doors.  Both doors were correctly placed on the same side.

The Tri-ang version was basically all plastic but had the "doors" on opposite sides and both the hook and bin parts were on separate tracks and had to be placed with one inside and one outside to allow the operation to work.  These sections of track had ramps built in which moved a lever on the base of the coach to operate the doors.  The mail bags here were plastic too.

One operating difference is that if you did not press the electrical button the Dublo coach kept its "doors" shut but the Tri-ang one operated each time the coach went over the ramps.

In Tri-ang's day there was also a longer continental coach set made.  Tri-ang did change the hook and bin system to clip into the super 4 track instead of a separate piece of track as in Standard and Series 3 versions.

 

Garry 

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I had a Tri-ang mail coach set and I used to play with it for hours with a Tri-ang green Princess and a maroon suburban coach.  I thought it was strange having a midland region set with hoardings advertising Margate.  I lived in Kent, my main interest was the Southern Railway but Tri-ang and Hornby Dublo hardly produced anything for the Southern enthusiast but the hoardings suggested that it was a midland region train visiting Kent. I sold the mail coach a long time ago but they are still readily available second hand.

 

The Hornby Dublo mail coach set came a few years later and were more sophisticated and more expensive than the Tri-ang set.  I think Hornby Dublo produced far more than the demand and it is easy to acquire them now for about £20.

 

I think you can use the Tri-ang and Hornby Dublo mail bags with each make's sets.

Edited by Robin Brasher
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34 minutes ago, Robin Brasher said:

I think you can use the Tri-ang and Hornby Dublo mail vans with each make's sets.

They might run on each others track but neither would work picking up or depositing mailbags though.  The original Dublo 3-rail one would cause a short on the Tri-ang track due to all metal wheels and axles. 

 

Garry 

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I think Tri-ang were keen on advertising Margate, because they were made there. They advertised TCC capacitors as used for suppressors and Shell who supplied their oil. They possibly got a discount in return for the advertising. None of today's copyright nonsense.

 

The Dublo TPO van is based on a real ex-GWR van, though it is a trifle short and no attempt was made to represent the doors used to set the bags to be dropped off . The Tri-ang van, which is far too short, had to wait for the Hornby era for an update.

 

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10 hours ago, Silverfox17 said:

They might run on each others track but neither would work picking up or depositing mailbags though.  The original Dublo 3-rail one would cause a short on the Tri-ang track due to all metal wheels and axles. 

 

Garry 

Sorry I meant mail bags. I have altered my post.

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18 minutes ago, Robin Brasher said:

Sorry I meant mail bags. I have altered my post.

I would imagine the Dublo metal one would work with the Tri-ang coach, but, with the Tri-ang mail bag being plastic, it could be too light in the Dublo coach as it has to fall partly under its own weight. Others may have tried and able to give a yes or no direct answer. 

 

Garry 

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The Dublo bag depends on weight and being polished to work properly. This probably why the Dublo instructions say not to oil the mechanism. (One of mine tended to stick until I did just this, but age, bent tinplate and rust don't help. You could get away with it on a new one.) Even so it tends to jam and/or get stuck under the ejection flap. I can verify this personally, as I can still remember the youthful frustration. (I had one for a Birthday present in January 1958. It did go well with my Xmas '57 Castle though.)

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Thank you for the information about the Royal Mail coaches.  Another model that can be compared with Tri-ang 00 and TT and Hornby Dublo is their restaurant car. They were all flagship models as they were the first British coaches to have detailed interiors and the 00 gauge models appeared in 1957.

 

The Tri-ang 00 gauge model was made in BR green, crimson and cream, maroon and chocolate and cream whereas the TT version was green, maroon and chocolate and cream and the Hornby Dublo version was produced as D21 brown and cream, D20 crimson and cream and D22 in a horrible red colour which did not match any of Hornby Dublo's other stock.

 

The Hornby Dublo version cost 15s 11p against 10s 6p for the Tri-ang version.  The Hornby Dublo version was more sophisticated with gloss paintwork, flush glazed windows, correctly painted internal walls and armrests on the first class chairs.  The Tri-ang versions had curtains and table napkins and removable roofs to insert passengers.  The Hornby Dublo version had off centre bogie pivots giving less overhang on sharp curves and was their first coach to have plastic wheels before their two rail system was introduced,

 

I bought a maroon Tri-ang restaurant car when it came out and it seemed like the last word in comparison to my mail and suburban coaches. The picture shows a Tri-ang crimson and cream coach and Hornby Dublo crimson and cream and red restaurant cars that I acquired later.

 

Acknowledgements to Pat Hammond and Michael Foster for the information provided in their excellent books.

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26 minutes ago, Robin Brasher said:

The Tri-ang 00 gauge model was made in BR green, crimson and cream, maroon and chocolate and cream whereas the TT version was green, maroon and chocolate and cream

This was going to be my next comparison. TT also did the Restaurant car in Blue and Grey.  Dublo also did the SD Restaurant car in Maroon and Brown and Cream which was a different design to the earlier tinplate versions.

 

Garry 

Edited by Silverfox17
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Following on from Robin's post here is the Dublo SD model compared to the others.  The TT maroon is a repaint, the green one is a rarer late version with red stripe and the blue and grey one is one of only 298 made.  My SD version has been fitted with Bachmann commonwealth bogies and the TT blood and custard is a repaint.

 

Garry

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Edited by Silverfox17
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The Dublo Restaurant car is based on a GWR 1920s design (as is the later Hornby version - the difference is that Dublo is the earlier flat-ended design (H25)* and the Hornby the bow-ended (H33)). It is unusual in that it is 1st/Kitchen/2nd (i.e. all-in-one); ideal for a model railway. For some reason the maroon version took a couple of years to appear and, as previously stated, failed to match the corresponding 1st/2nd and Bk/2nd coaches. They tried to pass these off as BR Mk Is by giving them BR numbers, but failed. The differences between Stanier coaches and MK Is are quite substantial. The crimson and cream version have the same numbers as the earlier LMS coaches. They should all have the regional suffix, but this has got lost along the way. The Crimson and cream version has the number on the LHS. Taken from an early repaint? The number was later shifted to the right (c1951 IIRC).

Tri-ang seem to have taken the design (or made one up?) and modified it to match their current Mk I range (the 9" coaches in 00).

 

* Photo and information here

 

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/95995-dia-h25-differences-from-h33/

 

Edited by Il Grifone
Bad proof reading. The dog jumped up on my lap....
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Here we have the 08 diesel shunters for comparison. 

The Tri-ang 00 version was first to appear and was available in both clockwork and electric versions.  It was produced in black the later green (other colours followed in Tri-ang Hornby days which is out of this thread).  Early BR blue may have appeared in Tri-ang days but unsure.  Its number was initially 13005 and later D3005, I have no idea if other numbers were made.  This model was, below the body, nothing like the real thing with the chassis using the Jinty one to keep costs down, (one more reason why Dublo went broke?).  Unlike it’s TT counterpart it had the chassis reversed and a screw to hold the body on was through the rear of the cab, as the moulding shows a round chimney was it originally going to have a screw through it?  The TT version came not long after the 00 one and as mentioned used the Jinty chassis but with a screw through the “chimney”.  The TT version was produced with 3 different numbers 13007, D3115 and D3117 the latter being the rarer one.  Both models suffered from a long wheelbase and no outside frames.

 

The Hornby Dublo one was made in both 2 and 3-rail versions each having their own numbers, Dublo always used a different number between both 2 and 3rail. Mine here is a repaint.  As far as I know there was only one modification with this loco which was the coupling rods were at one time a single piece and was also done with split rods.  This was a very heavy loco and looked far better than Tri-ang’s and had separate handrails, ladders and a proper “chimney”?  It was reported to by temperamental and could overheat as the motor was fully enclosed.  I hand milled some slots in the top casing and never found overheating to be an issue but did read somewhere one was supposed to have melted the body.  It is interesting to see the different heights of the Dublo and 00 models. Dublo was the only one to have the correct red coloured coupling rods.

 

Both the Tri-ang TT and Dublo models had vertical front grills and the Tri-ang 00 had horizontal ones for some reason, or were both ever made in real life?

 

Garry

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4 minutes ago, Robin Brasher said:

It looks like the Tri-ang TT range had locomotives with the late British Railways crest and the coaches were in late British Railways regional colours.

The TT range came out after BR had changed their totem so would always have that.  They did have the  version of both sides facing forward as BR did until BR was told that was not allowed and from then on had the lion always facing left. 

 

The TT coaches were produced after BR had changed to maroon (along with regional green and brown and cream) from blood and custard even though they were still running into the mid 60's. 

 

Garry 

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The vertical grilles are the only correct form (again Tr-ang's TT is better than their 00; I also note the cab door on the TT loco is in about the right place too). There were the two prototype locos D0226/7 which had horizontal grille slats, but I don't think Tri-ang's one could be said to represent them. The clockwork version was done in a maroon colour too.

The HD model beats them both, of course. I had a Wrenn version in the 1970s.

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There is an extra tool box on the Tri-ang model (to use the term loosely) through which the key fitted on the clockwork version. I suppose it needed the extra support or was it just to protect the key arbor and/or young fingers?

They could have modelled the LMS shunters with jackshaft drive:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_D3/7

The lack of the jackshafts could be excused more easily than outside frames.

I saw one of the Italian ones at Savona a good few years ago.

 

My HD shunter has had wasp stripes added by a previous owner. The model came out in the interval between black livery and the general adoption of the stripes.

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The bogie well wagon.  This was made in both 00 and TT by Tri-ang and also by Hornby Dublo. 

The Dublo one was always a die cast model and quite short, in fact the TT version was longer which leads me to think the Dublo was based on a different style, being short was possibly in keeping with the coaches and other bogie wagons.  Like the brick wagon it had metal wheels followed by nylon as were the couplings.

 

The Tri-ang 00 version was more to scale length (in my opinion) and also went from a diecast bogie to a plastic one.  This model, like Josephs coat, was produced in many colours, maybe more than what I have, I assume the orange was to go with the Transcontinental series?  This 00 model seemed strange having the couplings set further out from the buffer beam than normal giving an even wider gap between vehicles, possibly due to fitting a coupling to the casting although this was managed in TT?  The TT version was a reasonable scale length as well and usually grey (maybe two different shades) but there were some green ones made which are quite rare.

 

Garry

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The DMU was only made by Tri-ang but in both 00 and TT.  The 00 model was based on the Met Cam 101 and was produced with both Mk1 bogies and the Pullman style ones.  During Tri-ang’s day I think the front end had a couple of variations although that might have been in Tri-ang Hornby’s day.

 

The TT one was based on the class 104 (I think) and this model was unusual for the day of having a split motor bogie that did not require pick-ups.  The two side frames were diecast with a plastic centre which is difficult to dismantle without breaking anything.  The wheels were sintered iron with two different sized stub axles the smaller of which fitted a nylon gear and axle, current collection therefore was through the axle ends into the frames.  This model was usually finished with a lacquer which often “disintegrates” with time leaving a dull and patterned surface as can be seen in the front view.

 

The 00 model had a body and underframe as one piece with a separate roof, the TT model had a one piece body with a separate underframe fitted.

 

Both models were in sets, the 00 was a two car set (I don’t have to use as a comparison) and the TT in a 3 car set.  There was a centre car for each version and all models were sold separately as well as in sets.   

 

Garry

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Edited by Silverfox17
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3 hours ago, Il Grifone said:

There is an extra tool box on the Tri-ang model (to use the term loosely) through which the key fitted on the clockwork version.

Interestingly the real things acquired a box full width at that point, but about the same height when they were fitted with air-brakes. No BR ones were ever fitted with clockwork mechanisms to the best of my knowledge.

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2 hours ago, Silverfox17 said:

The DMU was only made by Tri-ang but in both 00 and TT.  The 00 model was based on the Met Cam 101 and was produced with both Mk1 bogies and the Pullman style ones.  During Tri-ang’s day I think the front end had a couple of variations although that might have been in Tri-ang Hornby’s day.

 

The TT one was based on the class 104 (I think)

Strictly speaking the Met. Camm. isn't a Class 101 as it represents one of the very early deliveries that had a different MU working (hence those little lumps under the cab windows).

The revised (but non-prototypical) headcode came in the 1970s.

 

Correct that the TT one is the earlier BRCW Class 104, though with a little work it would be possible to make it into the later BRCW 'Calder Valley' type, Class 110.

Edited by BernardTPM
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13 hours ago, Silverfox17 said:

The DMU was only made by Tri-ang but in both 00 and TT.  The 00 model ... was produced with both Mk1 bogies and the Pullman style ones.

Are you sure about the 'Mk.1' bogies? I thought they all had DMU bogies, the pattern of which was later stretched to make a 'Pullman' bogie when the scale length Pullman appeared in 1974. Your photo shows the early open axlebox DMU bogies.

The power bogie was basically the older EMU bogie minus the shoebeams, also used under their Blue Pullman motor coach.

Edited by BernardTPM
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32 minutes ago, BernardTPM said:

Are you sure about the 'Mk.1' bogies? I thought they all had DMU bogies, the pattern of which was later stretched to make a 'Pullman' bogie when the scale length Pullman appeared in 1974. Your photo shows the early open axlebox DMU bogies.

The power bogie was basically the older EMU bogie minus the shoebeams, also used under their Blue Pullman motor coach.

I thought the top one here was what Tri-ang classed as a Mk1 before the DMU ones underneath were made. 

 

Garry 

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