Signalling advice

[John Hubbard]

Hi,

I (we) need help please.   

We have a club layout that we have enjoyed putting together and we are at the "track down and working, must do signals before scenery" stage. 

However, collectively we don't know that much about signalling and we're hoping to learn from the group wisdom here.  

The club layout is set on the cusp of the transition to BR, and is Southern Region.  It's a single line in to a terminus, see pic.  Points are numbered in red, and names/numbers of lines in blue for easy reference.

We think we need colour light ground signals and upper quadrant semaphore for the main as its a minor branch and the club consensus is it's unlikely colour lights would have found there way out here yet for the main (is this true?).

The question... Where should we site the signals and what types should they be?

Thankyou all in advance for you help and patience.

[RailWest]

I don't see any reason for C/L signals at all. Certainly, if anything, a very few C/L main signals and mechanical shunt signals would be more likely IHMO.

 

You will need a trap point at the exit from the Engine Shed road in order to protect Platform 2 line.

 

Points 5 and 7 almost certainly would be hand-points without any shunt signals.

[John Hubbard]

Thanks Chris for the quick reply.

That's a good pint about the trap for the engine shed.  We should have known better, but I guess we've got so used to it we haven't stepped back to check.

I understand  turn outs 5, and 7, and it makes sense for no C/L on the main.

Do you have any suggestions for where the shunt signals and main signals should be sited and what types?

[ikcdab]

Well here's my two-pennyworth.

For "incoming" trains.

You need a bracket at the toe of point 1. Certainly this needs to be at least a three doll bracket,left hand for the run-round, middle for plat 1 and right for plat 2. It's arguable that it might need to be a four doll post with the extra one leading into siding 2. But I'm not sure.if you don't have that, then a running disc at the toe of point 8. Agree with @RailWest that points 3, 5, 6 and 7 prob hand worked.

For outgoing trains. Platform starters for plats 1 and 2. Disc at toe of 4 and 10. And if you have the space, an advanced starter somewhere down the single line.

Lots of other ways to skin this cat!

[ikcdab]

Having just posted that, because I have said point 5 is hand worked, I wonder if the left hand doll on the bracket would be a disc.

[The Stationmaster]

4 doll bracket  - left hand reading towards the run round loop, short arm (possibly with a ring on it), next two dolls probably equal height and higher than the other two with full size running arms reading to the two platform lines, might also have Calling On subsidiary arms, right hand doll reading to the other siding again with a short arm.    Unlikely for the date in mind but the two lower dolls might be replaced with discs mounted on the bracket structure.

 

On the other hand you could havea. single arm, plus a Calling On subsidiary, plus a Standard SR type route indicator.

[Flying Pig]

5 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

4 doll bracket

 

A quick look through the plans on the Signalling Record Society site found this arrangement at Allhallows on Sea. 

 

10 hours ago, ikcdab said:

Agree with @RailWest that points 3, 5, 6 and 7 prob hand worked.

 

Wouldn't the release crossover 3,6 need to be worked from the box or a ground frame rather than plain manual levers?  

[ikcdab]

37 minutes ago, Flying Pig said:

Wouldn't the release crossover 3,6 need to be worked from the box or a ground frame rather than plain manual levers?  

Yes, that's what I mean. Worked from a groundframe.

[RailWest]

Whether the release crossover was worked directly from the SB or a local GF would depend largely on their distance from the SB and to a lesser extent the visibility (or not) of that location by the signalman.

[John Hubbard]

Signal box is currently located below the X and above the 4, and well sighted.  We could locate it anywhere below the private siding and above 3 if needed.

Thank you all for your thoughts.  I think we're getting closer to a plan.  I also think my next step is to propose signals based on the advice and share the plan once again to see if I've understood things correctly.... watch this space.

[Chris Chewter]

This would be my attempt to signal the layout. 

 

 

As previously indicated, the bracket into the platforms would need calling on arms.  In my opinion, the box should ideally be next to the running line for dropping off/picking up tokens/staffs.  Disc symbols for double stacked dolls and "hand" to demote hand operated points.  Yellow disc is for a shut disc with a yellow band to control movements out from the yards out into the signalled area, however not too sure if that is a GWR/BR solution and not applicable to a southern region layout.

 

 

[Nick C]

Here's my view...

 

Outer home & advance starter off-stage

Inner homes - 2 doll bracket at the toe of points 1, taller left-hand doll reading to P1, lower right-hand one to P2. Shunt signal mounted on the post reading to all four routes.

Starters from both platforms, either two separate signals or a bracket (the Southern did both)

Yellow shunt signals at toe of points 10 and 4 

Red shunt signals at the toe of the trap from the engine shed, and at points 3.

Points would be worked as pairs off single levers - 1 & 9, 2 & 4, 3 & 6, 8 & 10 - 5 & 7 would be hand points. Facing point locks on 1, 2, 8 and 9.

 

Shunt signals would all be Westinghouse discs. Running signals would be predominantly upper-quadrants on either lattice posts or rail-built posts, though some pre-grouping ones did remain.

[RailWest]

Possibly also a yellow shunt at the toe of point 6.

There would need to be a red shunt under the Up Starting for Platform 2 for the route into the engine shed road.

[Flying Pig]

1 hour ago, Captainalbino said:

As previously indicated, the bracket into the platforms would need calling on arms

 

Continuing my trawl through the s-r-s thumbnails, I've found several termini without - see e.g. Allhallows above and Ilfracombe.

 

[Chris Chewter]

22 minutes ago, Flying Pig said:

 

Continuing my trawl through the s-r-s thumbnails, I've found several termini without - see e.g. Allhallows above and Ilfracombe.

 

Interesting. Without going off topic, how was access into the platform controlled if stock was in the platform? Was it shut discs (dolls) or by another solution?

[Flying Pig]

1 minute ago, Captainalbino said:

Interesting. Without going off topic, how was access into the platform controlled if stock was in the platform? Was it shut discs (dolls) or by another solution?

 

I don't know, but possibly by handsignals.

[Nick C]

2 hours ago, Captainalbino said:

Interesting. Without going off topic, how was access into the platform controlled if stock was in the platform? Was it shut discs (dolls) or by another solution?

Both examples shown above (Ilfracombe and Allhallows) are double track, and feature shunt signals on the outbound line allowing access back into the platforms, as do a few other double-track termini I've just looked at.

 

To give some single track examples - Cowes (https://www.s-r-s.org.uk/html/srs/R266.htm) has a shunt signal at the toe of the point leading from the single line, as does Sidmouth (https://www.s-r-s.org.uk/html/srq/S3486.htm) and Lyme Regis . Hawkhurst (https://www.s-r-s.org.uk/html/srb/R1735.htm) has a lower shunt arm on the main post of the bracket signal.

 

The southern were quite happy to have a single shunt signal reading for multiple routes - the Cowes example has a single disc reading for five routes, but controlled by two levers, one for the first two routes and the other for the remaining three!

Edited September 30, 2020 by Nick C

[RailWest]

IMHO unless we are talking about some inner-suburban terminus or similar location where regular traffic demanded the ability to run into a platform behind existing stock, then CO arms would be very unlikely - probably done by hand-signals if required.

 

At places such as Lyme Regis, where the shunt signal was actually in advance of the Down Home, it was more to do with the reversing into the sidings of engines/stock which had been drawn out of the platform than to admit incoming Down trains.

[The Stationmaster]

17 hours ago, RailWest said:

IMHO unless we are talking about some inner-suburban terminus or similar location where regular traffic demanded the ability to run into a platform behind existing stock, then CO arms would be very unlikely - probably done by hand-signals if required.

 

At places such as Lyme Regis, where the shunt signal was actually in advance of the Down Home, it was more to do with the reversing into the sidings of engines/stock which had been drawn out of the platform than to admit incoming Down trains.

As you say the vast majority of terminal stations did not have Calling On arms to signal movements attaching to the rear of trains standing in the platform - except on the LMS the movement would be handsignalled by the person in charge of shunting on the authority of the Signalman (on the LMS the Signalman exhibited a green handsignal to authorise the movement to pass the protecting stop signal at danger, a Company amendment of the standard RCH Rules).

 

In the BR 1950 Rules the procedure was amplified to require that the Driver be verbally instructed (to pass the signal at danger) by the person in charge of the movement.

 

Incidentally an earlier comment about the GWR using yellow arm ground discs is incorrect - the GWR did not use such signals although the SR did (except on the SR it was not a disc bi ut a miniature semaphore arm on a standard ground disc signals.  In my view the arrangement of the Home Signal at Allhallows-On-Sea would fit the bill well for this terminus - especially as although built by the SR it was in the correct  Pre-Group area for the signalling practice likely to be adopted on the model.  Don't forget that signalling practice on the SR varied in various ways between the Pre-Group areas.

[Chris Chewter]

Thanks for the update. My comment about yellow dolls was based on the yellow shunt discs at Winchcombe.  Being a Western location, my presumption was that there was a risk this could have been a Western Region practice and therefore may not be applicable to this location.

[RailWest]

Rule 1 - never base your model's signalling on anything you see at a heritage railway, unless you can be assured that it conforms to the practice of the period and originating company of your choice.

 

Rule 2 - never rely entirely on what you may be told by one of their signalmen, who was told it by his predecessor, who learnt it from somebody else, who may not have been familiar with the signalling practices of the original company. You could end up with the modeller's version of 'Chinese whispers'.

 

Rule 3 - always ask the Stationmaster :-)

 

 

[ikcdab]

6 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Incidentally an earlier comment about the GWR using yellow arm ground discs is incorrect - the GWR did not use such signals

Are you really sure? There used to be a yellow disc at castle Cary, leading out from the cattle dock. Of course this was in the early 1970s, so might have been a western region thing rather than GWR.

[The Stationmaster]

37 minutes ago, ikcdab said:

Are you really sure? There used to be a yellow disc at castle Cary, leading out from the cattle dock. Of course this was in the early 1970s, so might have been a western region thing rather than GWR.

.The GWR did not use yellow arm ground discs and of that I am absolutely certain.   The reason I am so certain is that the amendment to the GWR General Appendix which first referred to such discs existing among signals types on the (then) WR was dated January 1950.  It states very clearly, in direct reference to the new yellow arm for disc signals that 'The revised arrangements will apply in connection with new signalling schemes, signal alterations and renewals.'  The relevant reference quoted being  ' R.E. Stand:- L56267/89'.  

 

So in other words yellow arm discs were new to the former GWR in January 1950 although how soon after that any were actually installed was another matter but there were definitely places on the WR well into the 1960s, and probably later, where they could have been installed in place of red arm discs but hadn't been so installed and the signalling was unaltered.  There was, just for amusement, a GWR original 'half disc' of the 1911/1913 pattern at Witham however on close examination it was immediately obvious that the original red had been overpainted with yellow paint - that alteration was carried out in the early 1970s.

 

I suspect the one at Castle Cary was probably altered to a yellow arm in February 1968 when the former goods yard sidings and connections were rationalised.