Adventures in trying to make waterslide transfers

[cctransuk]

10 hours ago, Arkoudaki said:

Well I thought of you early on John but as you say on your site:

 

 

So I am trying to figure out other ways to get things done.   Thanks for sharing your expertise.

 

There really aren't any - I wouldn't still be using Alps printers if there were.

 

Try Raitec or Precision Labels.

 

John Isherwood.

[Noskarr]

Hi to all..

 

I have to say that ive been messing about with Decals for a couple of weeks now, and after reading all these posts I agree that they are a bit of a nightmare, as the floor to my room will testify with about 20 Decal sheets strewn about..

 

I have 2 printers, an OKI specially adapted to print only Black and White, plus an HP where I can swap out the Black toner for a White one.

 

As some have said printing Black or White does not seem to be a problem, but for me I sometimes have to use Clear Laser Decal paper, but my particular issue is trying to find the right printer settings to get a colour print that doesnt look almost transparent when applied to my Carrage, especially if the carrage in question is dark in colour.

 

Ive tried 2 passes, first with White then with colour, but it never quite matches up so the results are not great.

 

I can print perfectly on White Decal paper, but many of my Decals I want to print are quite fine and to cut out all the little bits would near impossible.

 

If anyone knows a good Transparent Waterslide Decal manufacturer of the best setting to put down obscene amounts of toner so the decals actually show up when applied I would be so very grateful.

 

I have to say that this is a wonderful forum..

 

[Corbs]

Hi Noskarr,

I think trying to get a printer that's not designed for repeated accurate registration to do it is going to be extremely difficult if not impossible. The ALPS type printers hold the paper tightly and don't let go mid-print in order to be able to repeatedly print in the same place. The only thing I could suggest is the same as using Ghost Toner, where you print two decals, one white and one colour, and then lay the white one first and the colour one over the white?

 

 

UV printing

Further to the discussion in this thread, I was round a friend's house the other day, their business is mostly keyrings (often laser cut) but they are expanding into other fields, they have this Roland UV printer.

 

Cost is somewhere around £20k I believe although some smaller printers are sub-£10k.

 

I'm fairly certain that Andrew Jeffcock at Custom Model Decals uses UV printing (no idea what printer or what kind of decal paper though).

 

Pros:

It can mix pretty much any colour with no dot dithering - the colour is always solid

It can print on anything that fits on the print bed

The conversion from design to print file is very simple - more akin to the OKI laser than the ALPS type printers

 

Cons:

The setup cost

The specific Roland my friend owns has to be kept at 20 degrees, otherwise it doesn't work. Don't know about other UV printers

The inks are obscenely expensive to replace

To prevent the lines from clogging, the inks are gently pumped through it into a drain tank even if you aren't using the printer. The ink is not recoverable from the drain tank. So it costs money even if not in use.

 

 

More laser experiments.

 

While I still have nowhere suitable to set up the ALPS and laptop, I was playing around to see what I could get out of the OKI laser printer.

Accepting it's never going to be perfect, I did manage to do this simple printed livery.

 

Some other experiments have involved trying to find a red with the least amount of dot dithering possible.

Another mate asked me to make some SECR plate decals.

Oddly when printing them, the red ended up way off-target (bad registration).

 

Note how the white is too thick at the bottom.

What I did in the end was to offset the red intentionally and make the white at the top too thick.

 

So the red ends up in the middle and the white ends up roughly the same thickness.

 

Likely a pointless exercise as doing it on the ALPS would be easier but I found it interesting to get my head around.

[cctransuk]

3 hours ago, Noskarr said:

Hi to all..

 

I have to say that ive been messing about with Decals for a couple of weeks now, and after reading all these posts I agree that they are a bit of a nightmare, as the floor to my room will testify with about 20 Decal sheets strewn about..

 

I have 2 printers, an OKI specially adapted to print only Black and White, plus an HP where I can swap out the Black toner for a White one.

 

As some have said printing Black or White does not seem to be a problem, but for me I sometimes have to use Clear Laser Decal paper, but my particular issue is trying to find the right printer settings to get a colour print that doesnt look almost transparent when applied to my Carrage, especially if the carrage in question is dark in colour.

 

Ive tried 2 passes, first with White then with colour, but it never quite matches up so the results are not great.

 

I can print perfectly on White Decal paper, but many of my Decals I want to print are quite fine and to cut out all the little bits would near impossible.

 

If anyone knows a good Transparent Waterslide Decal manufacturer of the best setting to put down obscene amounts of toner so the decals actually show up when applied I would be so very grateful.

 

I have to say that this is a wonderful forum..

 

 

You'll never achieve an opaque decal on clear paper without an underlay of white.

 

This can be achieved with an Alps / Oki / Printiva / Kodak Microdry printer, or by applying a translucent decal over an opaque white decal.

 

IMHO, the Alps etc. Microdry products were the only practical / affordable home decal printers.

 

John Isherwood,

Cambridge Custom Transfers.

[Noskarr]

Many thanks for that John, I was slowly moving towards that conclusion.

 

I do have an OKI printer (C511dn) and would love to know how it would be achieved with this.

I have tried the old 2 pass printing, but it very rarely lines up.

 

I will also look at those other ones you mentioned..

 

Again, thanks for your help, much appreciated..

[cctransuk]

13 minutes ago, Noskarr said:

Many thanks for that John, I was slowly moving towards that conclusion.

 

I do have an OKI printer (C511dn) and would love to know how it would be achieved with this.

I have tried the old 2 pass printing, but it very rarely lines up.

 

I will also look at those other ones you mentioned..

 

Again, thanks for your help, much appreciated..

 

The only Oki printer that utilised the Microdry principle was an Alps rebadged - the DP5000. These are legacy technology nowadays.

 

Unless the printer retains the paper between print passes, you will never get acceptable registration of white and colours.

 

Don't waste time trying to reinvent the wheel - the ONLY solution for the home decal printer was Alps Microdry.

 

CJI.

[Corbs]

2 hours ago, cctransuk said:

 

The only Oki printer that utilised the Microdry principle was an Alps rebadged - the DP5000.

That's the model I bought two of - still sat in the lock-up making me feel guilty every time I go in there 

[cctransuk]

1 hour ago, Corbs said:

That's the model I bought two of - still sat in the lock-up making me feel guilty every time I go in there 

 

If they're fully working, and you want to sell, PM me.

 

John Isherwood.

[njee20]

In terms of people sticking to their answer John you deserve an award; I think it’s 4 times in this thread you’ve stated the same!

 

I personally had a disagreement with John Peck at Precision over some custom work where he was getting me to change the colours to avoid dot dithering, and to better render ‘in print’. We ended up so far away from the ‘correct’ colours that it was totally unpractical, and when I looked back his rendition of the colours in the logo was actually very poor. My home laser did a better job. So whatever Precision use… I was not totally impressed.
 

The biggest problems I have with home printed decals (on an HP laser) is the intensity of colour as said, which I mitigate by doing two decals - a solid white and the top one, and the resolution, which just isn’t as good for small decals. 
 

ALPS/Microdry may be the best option, but IMO they’re not the only option for home printing. I’m not buying up old ALPS printers for sure. 

[Izzy]

I believe the basic problem for home printing decals of the small sizes most modellers want using ordinary laser/inkjet is twofold. One is the native resolution of the printer in terms of the droplet size laid down, and the second that the actual software allows for a white base in the mix for the correct tonal reproduction.  So printing onto a clear base just won’t work. 

[cctransuk]

9 hours ago, njee20 said:

In terms of people sticking to their answer John you deserve an award; I think it’s 4 times in this thread you’ve stated the same!

 

I personally had a disagreement with John Peck at Precision over some custom work where he was getting me to change the colours to avoid dot dithering, and to better render ‘in print’. We ended up so far away from the ‘correct’ colours that it was totally unpractical, and when I looked back his rendition of the colours in the logo was actually very poor. My home laser did a better job. So whatever Precision use… I was not totally impressed.
 

The biggest problems I have with home printed decals (on an HP laser) is the intensity of colour as said, which I mitigate by doing two decals - a solid white and the top one, and the resolution, which just isn’t as good for small decals. 
 

ALPS/Microdry may be the best option, but IMO they’re not the only option for home printing. I’m not buying up old ALPS printers for sure. 

 

If you want decals that go on in one layer; are opaque; are not affected by water (ie. don't bleed); and have good / excellent resolution, I would be extremely interested to learn of any alternative to Alps technology FOR THE HOBBYIST.

 

It is an inescapable fact that the ALPS system has a limited range of solid colours; (see below) - all other colours, especially pastel colours, will be dithered - probably to an unacceptable extent. (The colour chart is just a scan of my chart, printed on an Alps printer; do not take the image to be fully representative of the actual output).

 

 

Alps printers were / are NOT the answer to a railway modeller's prayer, but they do have very good capabilities when it comes to decals for the periods up to privatisation. For more recent / complex liveries, their suitability is much more limited; that is why I only produce decals for the BR pre-TOPS era.

 

As I say, the only reason that I use, and have a small stock of, Alps-technology printers is that no-one has yet been able to suggest any practical alternative by which to produce print-on-demand model railway decals, at a price attainable by the hobbyist.

 

..... over to anyone who knows different!

 

John Isherwood,

Cambridge Custom Transfers.

[njee20]

Well I use an HP laser printer with Ghost White toner, which, like I say, yielded a better result than the ALPS for one particular set I wanted (which convinced me to buy the above set up); I'm not honestly sure how much was a problem of matching printed colours to 'real' ones versus the dot dithering issue. Like I say, when I realised afterwards that Precision's colours looked totally wrong anyway it felt I was chasing ghosts on that particular artwork.

 

Again, mine aren't single layer, but for me, as a hobbyist (or should that be HOBBYIST!?) they yield better results. I'm doing post privatisation though with all of the complex and vibrant colours that brings, and like I say, the ALPS technology just didn't provide a satisfactory result. Actually the biggest problem I've had is paper with a less visible carrier film, so I've noted your preferred supplier next time I need some! Would I suggest the technology for someone, such as yourself, who is selling decals? No, personally not. I know Railtec use spot printing, I've no idea what Fox use. Despite my comments on the custom decals I've generally been satisfied with Precision too. More than one way to skin a cat, but as a hobbyist, I'm happy with the decals I can produce for my own models. My limit is most certainly my skill, rather than the technology. Just my £0.02. I will still buy commercially available decals where they exist, it's just less effort!

 

Edit: these were all printed by me, not perfect, but adequate to my eyes. YMMV. 

 

Edited September 6, 2021 by njee20

[cctransuk]

32 minutes ago, njee20 said:

Well I use an HP laser printer with Ghost White toner, which, like I say, yielded a better result than the ALPS for one particular set I wanted (which convinced me to buy the above set up); I'm not honestly sure how much was a problem of matching printed colours to 'real' ones versus the dot dithering issue. Like I say, when I realised afterwards that Precision's colours looked totally wrong anyway it felt I was chasing ghosts on that particular artwork.

 

Again, mine aren't single layer, but for me, as a hobbyist (or should that be HOBBYIST!?) they yield better results. I'm doing post privatisation though with all of the complex and vibrant colours that brings, and like I say, the ALPS technology just didn't provide a satisfactory result. Actually the biggest problem I've had is paper with a less visible carrier film, so I've noted your preferred supplier next time I need some! Would I suggest the technology for someone, such as yourself, who is selling decals? No, personally not. I know Railtec use spot printing, I've no idea what Fox use. Despite my comments on the custom decals I've generally been satisfied with Precision too. More than one way to skin a cat, but as a hobbyist, I'm happy with the decals I can produce for my own models. My limit is most certainly my skill, rather than the technology. Just my £0.02. I will still buy commercially available decals where they exist, it's just less effort!

 

Edit: these were all printed by me, not perfect, but adequate to my eyes. YMMV. 

 

 

A perfect example of why I won't / don't do post-TOPS decals - Alps technology is totally unsuited to 'graphics' - as opposed to lettering / markings.

 

I can fully understand why John Peck struggled with your commission - using Alps legacy technology, I wouldn't have gone near it with a bargepole!

 

'Do what you know you can achieve, and stick to it' is my motto.

 

John Isherwood.

[Corbs]

For reference the C711WT is printing at 1200dpi so on pure white transfers a really nice crisp edge can be achieved.

 

 

12 hours ago, cctransuk said:

 

If they're fully working, and you want to sell, PM me.

 

John Isherwood.

 

Cheers John, I want to persevere with them at the moment but I will let you know if I change my mind. One has 'delivery mileage' on it and I think the other has never been used!

 

1 hour ago, cctransuk said:

It is an inescapable fact that the ALPS system has a limited range of solid colours; (see below) - all other colours, especially pastel colours, will be dithered - probably to an unacceptable extent. (The colour chart is just a scan of my chart, printed on an Alps printer; do not take the image to be fully representative of the actual output).

 

 

 

This is very useful, thanks. Am I reading it correctly if something like W+Y2 is one pass of white and then two passes of yellow?

 

 

59 minutes ago, njee20 said:

 

Edit: these were all printed by me, not perfect, but adequate to my eyes. YMMV. 

 

 

 

The Drax wagon especially came out well, is this done by printing the entire side of the wagon as a single decal?

[cctransuk]

6 minutes ago, Corbs said:

Cheers John, I want to persevere with them at the moment but I will let you know if I change my mind. One has 'delivery mileage' on it and I think the other has never been used!

 

This is very useful, thanks. Am I reading it correctly if something like W+Y2 is one pass of white and then two passes of yellow?

 

Correct.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[njee20]

1 hour ago, cctransuk said:

 

A perfect example of why I won't / don't do post-TOPS decals - Alps technology is totally unsuited to 'graphics' - as opposed to lettering / markings.

 

I can fully understand why John Peck struggled with your commission - using Alps legacy technology, I wouldn't have gone near it with a bargepole!

 

'Do what you know you can achieve, and stick to it' is my motto.

 

John Isherwood.

And of course that's fine, but you won't mind me offering it a counter to your "ALPS is the only system for home decal printing", when you're saying it's no use for many of the last 50 years of liveries! The 'issue' with Precision was not the end graphics, which John said would be better painted (obviously I disagreed, I think that would be nye on impossible), rather the corporate logo, and the matching of the colours within. No problem, I think what John's doing is great, in terms of access to custom printing, just a limitation of the technology. To that end, if I had one set of hardware for home decal production it wouldn't be an ALPS printer. Merely offering another perspective.

 

1 hour ago, Corbs said:

The Drax wagon especially came out well, is this done by printing the entire side of the wagon as a single decal?

Yes, that's definitely where the home printing works most effectively. It's three decals - each of the "swooshes" as a single decal with all the data labels, printed on white-backed decal paper, so they're more vibrant, and the logo, which is printed on clear decal paper.

 

Like I say, they're good enough for me, but not faultless. I think ALPS would work better for the pure white decals on the other two, and I'm honestly not sure on the Freightliner logo, which is a (badly applied!) two-layer decal, with a white logo underneath the orange/yellow. I guess it comes down to whether you can get them to a 'solid' colour. It helps as well that in N a multitude of sins are hidden, whilst in O the extra size makes everything that bit bolder. Ironically OO is probably the worst of both worlds!

[SD45T-2]

I will definitely have to dig out my ALPS MD4000 and sort out a driver/OS solution for it. I've got a fair number of cartridges in stock so the consumeables aren't a problem. I did have success with the printer many years ago but the OS was Windows XP(?) or something of that sort of vintage. Perhaps an elderly PC with a parallel port and old version of Windows would work, but what software should I use for printing the files?

 

Any sensible suggstions gratefully accepted.

 

I've also been producing H0 decals using a Ghost White Tone cartridge of US freight-car data and they look fine; possibly not too brilliant under magnification but at normal viewing distances they're fine.

[cctransuk]

1 minute ago, SD45T-2 said:

I will definitely have to dig out my ALPS MD4000 and sort out a driver/OS solution for it. I've got a fair number of cartridges in stock so the consumeables aren't a problem. I did have success with the printer many years ago but the OS was Windows XP(?) or something of that sort of vintage. Perhaps an elderly PC with a parallel port and old version of Windows would work, but what software should I use for printing the files?

 

Any sensible suggstions gratefully accepted.

 

I've also been producing H0 decals using a Ghost White Tone cartridge of US freight-car data and they look fine; possibly not too brilliant under magnification but at normal viewing distances they're fine.

 

I think that you will find that there are no drivers for Alps printers beyond Windows 2000.

 

I use CorelDRAW to design transfers; vector graphics are really indispensable for such work.

 

John Isherwood.

[Corbs]

2 hours ago, SD45T-2 said:

I will definitely have to dig out my ALPS MD4000 and sort out a driver/OS solution for it. I've got a fair number of cartridges in stock so the consumeables aren't a problem. I did have success with the printer many years ago but the OS was Windows XP(?) or something of that sort of vintage. Perhaps an elderly PC with a parallel port and old version of Windows would work, but what software should I use for printing the files?

 

Any sensible suggstions gratefully accepted.

 

I've also been producing H0 decals using a Ghost White Tone cartridge of US freight-car data and they look fine; possibly not too brilliant under magnification but at normal viewing distances they're fine.

 

I bought a specific laptop from John Peck of http://www.precisionlabels.com/pics to run the ALPS when I finally get around to clearing space for them.

[Corbs]

How have you found the UV printer to be? A mate of mine bought an all-singing all-dancing one and it was a bit of a nightmare to get to grips with. Total loss ink system that bled itself to prevent it jamming, and a lot of sensitivity to temperature. It also had to be dead-level.

[Corbs]

Been doing a bit of admin and the OKI laser printer I use for decal printing has just broken even (including the postage and the replacement drum I got for it).
I got it in October 2020 so pretty much bang-on 2 years.

Obviously that doesn't include my time I've spent designing etc., it's just outgoing costs, but on the other hand I've not spent more than a few quid on my own decals in 2 years.

Still need to pay off the ALPS printers but they still aren't set up due to lack of space so imagine that will be a while.

[spsmiler]

Just a thought ... before dipping my own toes in the decal printing water ... would pigment ink jet printers achieve better results than inkjet printers that use dye based colours?

 

At present I am yet to buy anything, so am considering my options.

 

Dye based ink jets are cheaper to run but as I understand it pigment inks achieve better and longer lasting (fade resistant) results.

 

Simon

 

Edited February 5, 2023 by spsmiler

[Corbs]

On 05/02/2023 at 17:12, spsmiler said:

Just a thought ... before dipping my own toes in the decal printing water ... would pigment ink jet printers achieve better results than inkjet printers that use dye based colours?

 

At present I am yet to buy anything, so am considering my options.

 

Dye based ink jets are cheaper to run but as I understand it pigment inks achieve better and longer lasting (fade resistant) results.

 

Simon

 

 

I think you'd still run into the same problem that the computer will always assume the paper is white, not transparent, and will instruct the printer to 'add to white' rather than 'build a solid colour from nothing'.

[pH]

On 05/09/2021 at 08:17, Corbs said:

… print two decals, one white and one colour, and then lay the white one first and the colour one over the white?

Before I go and screw things up, can I confirm that it is possible to apply one decal on top of another?

 

If so, should the first decal be completely dry before the second is applied? Or can/should the first still be wet/damp when the second is applied?

 

I want to renumber a loco, but then apply a ‘patch’ number on top of that. (It did happen - there are pictures.) The model isn’t available with the correct original number.

 

Thanks in advance for help.

[Dave John]

I have used double transfers with reasonable results ;

 

 

 

The lowere transfer is applied and bedded in with microset. Allow to dry well then the upper transfer. In the case of the lettered panels only the upper transfer is lettered, the lower is plain white.