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Hornby Hawksworth GWR Chocolate-Cream Livery How Common?


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In sorting through some stored Hornby carriages I came across 6 Hornby Hawksworth GWR-livery carriages and wonder how common these models are, and indeed how common the prototypes lasted in this livery?

 

They are R4500 full brake

R ?  3rd  (non-original box)

R4502 brake 3rd 1783  (2 of)

R4503 composite

R4504 composite brake

 

Any info on these carriages and their prototypes welcomed.

 

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1 hour ago, sandwich station said:

A thread here on them Rob. Might give you some of the information you want.

 

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/112955-gwr-hawksworth-coaches-pre-nationalisation/

 

Thanks sandwich station, some interesting snippets of post-war troubles for the GWR. It appears that 3rd and brake 3rd coaches were added to existing formations pre-nationalisation but in a quick read I didn't find out much about how many of the various types were built and painted in chocolate and cream.

 

I am curious as to how many Hornby models were produced in this livery, it seems unlikely that they were ever formed into sets.

 

Thanks again.

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I think you might be confusing GWR chocolate and cream and the later BR(W) livery. I think very few were painted by the GWR before nationalisation. However, in the mid 1950s the regions were given permission to use their own liveeries and western region painted a lot of top-rank stock back into chocolate and cream. I've only checked one, but the Hornby R4500 is definitely BR(W) livery, witnessed by the running number W316W. 

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So far as I am aware it was generally only Mk1 stock that appeared in BR chocolate & cream. The only exceptions that I know of were restaurant cars. There weren’t enough mk1 buffet/restaurants so some ex GWR versions were repainted into  the old colours to make a complete set of chocolate & cream.

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1 hour ago, adb968008 said:

I dont think they ever did exist in GWR livery, BR Brown yes... theres a lovely preserved sleeper in Brown/Cream at Severn Valley.. 

According to the SVR Wiki Page those sleepers are painted in non authentic GWR Chocolate and Cream. From what I've read on another thread very few Hawksworth coaches were built before BR made the switch to Carmine and Cream so whilst some did carry GWR, there were not that many...

 

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/90338-gwr-livery-hawksworth-carriages-which-were-they/page/2/

 

To quote Coach Bogie on that thread "To add to the confusion and Swindon's usual exception to the rule - there were a pair of brake compos nos 7372 and 7377. Although built in 1948 they were released in full GWR Hawksworth livery which they retained until 1957."

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It looks like there are some different issues getting muddled up here. Let me summarise:

 

  1. Hawksworth coaches started to enter service well before nationalisation and several (but not all) diagrams were painted in authentic GWR livery.
  2. The Full brakes were only built after nationalisation and entered service in Crimson and Cream livery. They have only carried GWR livery in preservation.
  3. A small number of Hawksworth catering coaches were painted WR Chocolate and cream in the late 50s for named expresses. From memory, examples of both H55 and H57 received this livery but I would have to check to be certain.
  4. The 3 slip coaches converted from Hawksworth Brake Compos also received Chocolate and cream in BR days.
  5. Some GWR super saloons received Chocolate and cream in BR days.
  6. The Hawksworth Inspection Saloon received Chocolate and cream in BR days and could be mistaken for an auto-coach at first glance.
  7. In 1948 some Hawksworth coaches were turned out in hybrid GWR/BR liveries. This happened before Crimson and Cream was selected as official BR livery. These coaches had chocolate and cream livery but other details were a mishmash of GWR and BR features. The W-prefix for numbering was adopted quite quickly and over the months, the number moved to its BR-specific location. The GWR crests continued to be applied for a short while into 1948 until the supply of transfers was used up. As they were new builds, quite a few Hawksworth coaches ended up in these hybrid liveries. When people mention Hawksworth coaches in WR chocolate and cream, they are probably referring to this rather than coaches for expresses in the late 50s which were mostly Mk1 (apart from the exceptions noted above).
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I found a photo on the 'net of W7372W & W7377W together on the end of a train at Newport in 1965, after they'd been released to normal traffic. They were both in BR(WR) chocolate and cream livery. Both must have been withdrawn shortly after and went into preservation, 7372 at Bodmin 1969-77 with saddle tank 1363, both then moving to Didcot, and 7377 at the South Devon Railway.

I fancied recreating W7372W from the Hornby BCK, to run with my maroon ones - after assessing and rejecting the crimson and cream liveried model (I could foresee lining issues) I discovered that a shop a few miles away still had a GWR one (R4504) on the shelf at a clearance price so I grabbed that. Two hours work with T-Cut and blunt cocktail sticks reduced the GWR livery to BR pattern, the window labels were changed and BR running numbers added. The main deviation is the brown door droplights which should be cream, but solidly glued glazing and current enamel paint's inability to cover dark colours without multiple coats has put me off trying. One day perhaps. But it really needs a coat of satin varnish on the lower bodysides.

I also secured another BCK on run-out (from a retailer in South Wales) to go with my Kernow 1363 but kept this in full GWR livery - not correct for its time in Cornwall where it was in a very basic choc/cream livery but it looks great so I don't care!!

 

WP_20201001_14_40_48_Pro.jpg

WP_20201001_14_47_25_Pro.jpg

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I believe one or two Collett restaurant cars refurbished by Hawksworth and given sliding ventilator windows may have been given the WR choc/cream livery (this was introduced in 1956; the last set to receive it was a full set of mk1s for the 'Bristolian' in 1962, there is a photo around somewhere of this set brand new in Locking Sidings at Weston Super Mare behind a King, and along with the 4-car Inter City dmus being built at Swindon at the time, was the first outing for the new B4 bogie, I digress).  By 1963, new WR coaches and repaints were all in lined maroon livery.  

 

The initial instruction to paint shops upon Nationalisation on 1/1/48 was to carry on as before but not brand any vehicle with company logos, initials, or other form of owner identification.  On the WR, the 1947 GW liveries were continued with W prefixes to the numbers on the left hand ends of the sides with the new Gill Sans for numbering and lettering, and over the next 6 months the numbers were moved to the right hand end, with some differences to size and actual positioning.  For any new or repainted coach from Swindon that entered traffic in this period, it is best to work from photos if possible as the situation was a little fluid.  Old stocks of 'Smoking' and 'First Class' window stickers were used up before the BR triangle and sausage versions appeared; in any case, these were applied at the depots.  

 

On 1/6/48. new instructions were issued following board level decisions about livery.  Gangwayed stock was to be painted crimson/cream with lining, non-gangwayed unlined crimson, and NPCCS unlined crimson unless dedicated to certain main line passenger workings.  The brand new Hawksworth BGs, which were introduced after this date, were so dedicated and thus carried crimson/cream livery.  First class accommodation received the Gill Sans '1's on the doors at this time,  Swindon continued to paint saloon auto trailers in the best main line livery, a long standing tradition with GW/WR saloon stock, including the brand new Hawksworth types, until 1950 when, apparently, Mr Riddles saw one at Paddington and wrote a later to WR top brass demanding to know what his best main line livery was doing on a lowly auto trailer; following which auto trailers appeared in unlined crimson.

 

Following the introduction of the mk1 standard stock in 1950, there was a possibility of duplicate stock numbers (there were already 3 number series on the WR, railcars, auto trailers, and coaching stock), and a suffix was attached to the numbers delineating the region responsible for the maintenance of the coach for all passenger rated stock designed before Nationalisation, including the large number of Hawksworth, Stanier, Thompson, and Bulleid coaches and NPCCS built after Nationalisation and still being built for some years until orders were completed.  As the region responsible for maintenance was in this case the WR, Hawkworth and all other GW designed coaches and NPCCS in service received the W suffix, but exactly when I would be reluctant to say; we are back to validated and cross referenced photographic evidence of good provenance, or guestimation, sorry folks!

 

The next change is in 1956, not sure of exact date, when the crimson/cream and plain crimson coaching stock liveries were replaced by lined maroon and unlined maroon respectively.  Beware as some textbook authors are less than 100% clear about the difference; John Lewis, for instance, refers to crimson as maroon.  At the same time, the extra autonomy granted to the regions led to named expresses being given rakes of stock in a brand new WR version of chocolate and cream livery, to my view the most attractive version ever released.  Initially, those services which had not yet been given mk1 stock were made up of Hawksworth stock painted in this livery, and even when mk1s were available (all such trains by 1958) mk1 catering vehicles were not yet available and Hawksworth refurbished Collett vehicles painted in the WR choc/cream were used.  I have only seen one photo of a complete purpose built set of WR liveried mk1s including the restaurant car, and that is the 1962 'Bristolian' set mentioned above.  

 

The chocolate/cream sets were broken up and dispersed in '63, but were still seen on secondary work and as strengtheners for some time, in the same way as crimson/cream stock was.  I would be very hesitant to state that any retained the livery until repainting in post 1966 blue/grey, but I can recall seeing filthy Stanier, Gresely, and Thompson BGs in crimson/cream in the late 60s running with freshly painted blue versions that had missed out the maroon livery altogether, and this continued into the mid 70s with lined maroon versions.

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7 hours ago, Karhedron said:

It looks like there are some different issues getting muddled up here. Let me summarise:

 

  1. Hawksworth coaches started to enter service well before nationalisation and several (but not all) diagrams were painted in authentic GWR livery.
  2. The Full brakes were only built after nationalisation and entered service in Crimson and Cream livery. They have only carried GWR livery in preservation.
  3. A small number of Hawksworth catering coaches were painted WR Chocolate and cream in the late 50s for named expresses. From memory, examples of both H55 and H57 received this livery but I would have to check to be certain.
  4. The 3 slip coaches converted from Hawksworth Brake Compos also received Chocolate and cream in BR days.
  5. Some GWR super saloons received Chocolate and cream in BR days.
  6. The Hawksworth Inspection Saloon received Chocolate and cream in BR days and could be mistaken for an auto-coach at first glance.
  7. In 1948 some Hawksworth coaches were turned out in hybrid GWR/BR liveries. This happened before Crimson and Cream was selected as official BR livery. These coaches had chocolate and cream livery but other details were a mishmash of GWR and BR features. The W-prefix for numbering was adopted quite quickly and over the months, the number moved to its BR-specific location. The GWR crests continued to be applied for a short while into 1948 until the supply of transfers was used up. As they were new builds, quite a few Hawksworth coaches ended up in these hybrid liveries. When people mention Hawksworth coaches in WR chocolate and cream, they are probably referring to this rather than coaches for expresses in the late 50s which were mostly Mk1 (apart from the exceptions noted above).

 

Thanks for that, it does appear that the transition from GWR to BR before crimson-cream was rather tricky.

 

Which makes me wonder how many chocolate and cream GWR Hawksworths did Hornby make?  They don't appear to command any premium on Ebay, but this may be because the prototypes never ran in sets?

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3 hours ago, The Johnster said:

I believe one or two Collett restaurant cars refurbished by Hawksworth and given sliding ventilator windows may have been given the WR choc/cream livery (this was introduced in 1956;

 

I think you are correct. Several catering vehicles spent the war years out of service and were decided to be in need of refurbishment before returning to service. I don't have a list of all the vehicles so treated but it is probably in Russel somewhere.

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4 hours ago, The Johnster said:

 

 

The next change is in 1956, not sure of exact date, when the crimson/cream and plain crimson coaching stock liveries were replaced by lined maroon and unlined maroon respectively.  Beware as some textbook authors are less than 100% clear about the difference; John Lewis, for instance, refers to crimson as maroon.  At the same time, the extra autonomy granted to the regions led to named expresses being given rakes of stock in a brand new WR version of chocolate and cream livery, to my view the most attractive version ever released.  Initially, those services which had not yet been given mk1 stock were made up of Hawksworth stock painted in this livery, and even when mk1s were available (all such trains by 1958) mk1 catering vehicles were not yet available and Hawksworth refurbished Collett vehicles painted in the WR choc/cream were used.  I have only seen one photo of a complete purpose built set of WR liveried mk1s including the restaurant car, and that is the 1962 'Bristolian' set mentioned above.  

 

The chocolate/cream sets were broken up and dispersed in '63, but were still seen on secondary work and as strengtheners for some time, in the same way as crimson/cream stock was.  I would be very hesitant to state that any retained the livery until repainting in post 1966 blue/grey, but I can recall seeing filthy Stanier, Gresely, and Thompson BGs in crimson/cream in the late 60s running with freshly painted blue versions that had missed out the maroon livery altogether, and this continued into the mid 70s with lined maroon versions.

Are you saying that there were more Hawksworth vehicles repainted into BR (WR) chocolate and cream livery than the two 'Royal BCKs'? If so that's news to me, I don't recall seeing any photos of such rakes, but then most of my books are diesel-oriented.

Which reminds me, on page 92 of OPC's 'The Power of the Warships' there's an undated photo of D824 'Highflyer' in plain green leaving Newton Abbot for points north, which looking at the state of the loco and the leafless trees I would estimate to be February/March 1961, and the first vehicle behind the loco is an immaculate Hawksworth SK in a two-tone livery - I wish it was in colour because I really can't figure out what livery I'm looking at at such a date! The roof is spotless and the lower bodywork is clearly a lighter shade than the maroon vehicles behind, but -  immaculate crimson and cream, or even chocolate and cream, in 1961? Any ideas?

 

Mark 1 BSK W34885 definitely went directly from choc/cream into blue/grey as it was still in the former livery in July 1968 - I saw it passing west through Truro on the 22nd. Believe me, that was the first time I'd taken any real notice of coaches as it was difficult to miss! It went blue/grey and gained B4 bogies shortly after but I recall seeing it stored in sidings at Oxford around 1973/4. Weird really as there was still a complete rake of tatty maroon Mark 1s running around at the time....... (Note that the Parkin book is incorrect in stating that this vehicle gained B4s while still in choc/cream livery. Some did but not this one*. I didn't notice such details myself in 1968 but photo-evidence has since come to light that it was still on B1s.) Bachmann's 39-079B represents W34885 but with those luggage door chalk panels which isn't very helpful for late 1960s WR modellers wanting to run something a bit different! Well, straight out of the box anyway......

 

* I should maybe add 'in service' as I believe a photo exists of it at Wolverton Works (?) in unkempt choc/cream on shiny new B4s but, just like 'Falcon' in lime green with yellow warning panels, that doesn't really count as it didn't escape works in that condition.

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2 hours ago, Neil Phillips said:

Are you saying that there were more Hawksworth vehicles repainted into BR (WR) chocolate and cream livery than the two 'Royal BCKs'?

I believe so, yes.  The initial WR chocolate and cream liveried named train stock was AFAIK Hawksworths for those trains that had not yet been allocated mk1 sets, including the 1956-58 'Red Dragon'.  This train certainly ran with a refurbished Collet restaurant car in choc/cream until 1958 and possibly a bit later; there are photos of it with mk1s and the Collett restaurant car.

 

To the best of my knowledge the only mk1s in choc/cream with B4 bogies were the 1962 'Bristolian' set.

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6 hours ago, The Johnster said:

I believe so, yes.  The initial WR chocolate and cream liveried named train stock was AFAIK Hawksworths for those trains that had not yet been allocated mk1 sets, including the 1956-58 'Red Dragon'.  This train certainly ran with a refurbished Collet restaurant car in choc/cream until 1958 and possibly a bit later; there are photos of it with mk1s and the Collett restaurant car.

 

To the best of my knowledge the only mk1s in choc/cream with B4 bogies were the 1962 'Bristolian' set.

 
Sorry for the pedantry but the B4 bogies on that set goes back IIRC to 1958/60.Certainly as I remember that set from 1960-62.

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As far as I am aware the only Hawksworth coaches to receive BR's version of chocolate and cream were 7372, 7377, the new dynamometer car and possibiy some of the three 1958 slip conversions.  Other non-Mk 1s to be thus adorned were the super saloons, some slips other than those just mentioned, some catering vehicles and some inspection saloons.  Those built before blood and custard was adopted would have carried the GWR version from new.  For reasons not known to me the GwR thought better of using them on its most prestigious trains, defying the tradition that the Cornish Riviera had first dibs on new stock.

 

7372 and 7377 were cosseted vehicles, reserved for VIP use and otjherwise kept out of harm's way in the shed at Old Oak.  They are unusual in never having carried blood and custard.

 

Chris   

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11 hours ago, The Johnster said:

I believe so, yes.  The initial WR chocolate and cream liveried named train stock was AFAIK Hawksworths for those trains that had not yet been allocated mk1 sets, including the 1956-58 'Red Dragon'.  This train certainly ran with a refurbished Collet restaurant car in choc/cream until 1958 and possibly a bit later; there are photos of it with mk1s and the Collett restaurant car.

 

I am pretty sure that all the regular choc and cream stock for the WR named expresses were Mk1 stock. Exceptions were those already mentioned (catering vehicles, slips etc).  I have never heard or seen of a rake of Hawksworths receiving BR choc and cream in 50s. May I ask where you heard about this?

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12 hours ago, The Johnster said:

I believe so, yes.  The initial WR chocolate and cream liveried named train stock was AFAIK Hawksworths for those trains that had not yet been allocated mk1 sets, including the 1956-58 'Red Dragon'.  This train certainly ran with a refurbished Collet restaurant car in choc/cream until 1958 and possibly a bit later; there are photos of it with mk1s and the Collett restaurant car.

 

To the best of my knowledge the only mk1s in choc/cream with B4 bogies were the 1962 'Bristolian' set.

How did this thread end up on Mk1s with B4 bogies?

 

Parkin in his tome on Mk1s states that both the Birstolian and Red Dragon trainsets gained B4 bogies as part of that particular bogies development. There are certainly some under the Mk1s in this John Wiltshire image of the Red Dragon.

 

Parkin doesn't give any dates for the fitting of them but a quick glace through some John Hodge images would sugest late 61 or early 62. Before then the Red Dragon Mk1s seemed to have been fitted with BR Coach Bogies and was uniform choolate and cream. I'd suggest the John Wilshire image linked is likely to be 62 rather than 61 going by the maroon Mk1s in the formation. 

 

I was under the impression that the GWR and BR(W) that followed (unlike other mebers of the big four/regions) did their untmost to avoid a uniform train until the Mk1s appeared with anything and everything going in the formation!

 

Justin

 

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20 hours ago, The Johnster said:

 At the same time, the extra autonomy granted to the regions led to named expresses being given rakes of stock in a brand new WR version of chocolate and cream livery, to my view the most attractive version ever released.  Initially, those services which had not yet been given mk1 stock were made up of Hawksworth stock painted in this livery, and even when mk1s were available (all such trains by 1958) mk1 catering vehicles were not yet available and Hawksworth refurbished Collett vehicles painted in the WR choc/cream were used.  

 

This has been mis-remembered.  I refer the hon member to Robert Carroll's coaching stock yahoo group from which may be accessed a comprehensive list of vehicles painted chocolate and cream in BR days.   It is not mine to publish but I can quote from it.   Ex-GWR stock listed comprises 28 catering vehicles, six slip coaches, four super saloons and the two Hawksworth BCKs.  It does not list departmental vehicles, which could be why the inspection saloons, dynamometer car and one auto trailer are not included.  The remainder of the list comprises Mk 1s and it's a long list.

 

Chris

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My memory is misleading me then, Chris; apologies to all.  I am probably recalling crimson/cream Hawksworth stock on the Red Dragon with the excuse that I was very young in 1956, but could tell the difference in the roof outline!  IIRC, which as we've just seen I don't always even when I'm sure I do, the Red Dragon got mk1s, in choc/cream, in 1958 and retained the refubished Collett catering vehicles initially.  These are easy to pick out in photographs as they have underframes that show at the sides more than the central girder mk1  arrangement.

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Plus the body shape,  of course.

 

I would not disagree with 1958 for the Dragon going choc-cream.  There were so many named trains that they could not all have been re-equipped at once!  It got its Mk 1 catering vehicles in late 1961/early 1962, very shortly before the decision was taken [circa Easter 1962] to abolish chocolate and cream!

 

Chris

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7 hours ago, Ian Hargrave said:

 
Sorry for the pedantry but the B4 bogies on that set goes back IIRC to 1958/60.Certainly as I remember that set from 1960-62.

Nothing wrong with a bit of pedantry, Ian, I'm not immune myself!  According to Wikipedia, the B4 was introduced in 1963, which ties in with their appearance on the Class 123 Inter City dmus introduced that year.  Wiki states that the bogies were not applied to mk1s at Swindon, but were to the early mk2s produced there.  Having just had my memory proven inaccurate, I am questioning my 'KIng and B4 Bristolian' WSM photo'; I don't have a copy and it is something I saw in a magazine back in the 70s or 80s.  But I don't  think B4s existed in 1958-60.  There is vague reference to a B3 which may have been a drawing but never built.  What is certain is that a) the 4-car Inter City trains were introduced in 1963, and because one of their centres of operation was Cardiff I was familiar with them at that time, 11 years old, and rode in one to visit rellys in Tamworth in September of that year, and b) they had B4 bogies, the first I'd seen, including the power bogies.  

 

The 123s were good for 75mph, not 100, so that was not the reason they were given these bogies.  The next stage I was aware of was the appearance of the XP64 train, which visited Cardiff, and occasionally appeared here in revenue service.  This of course had B4 bogies and trialled the blue/grey livery, introduced 2 years later in 1966.  Following the XP64, Swindon began turning out MkII FK coaches with 'integrally designed' bodies and B4 bogies for the WR and SR; there were some for the ECML as well which may have been built at York.  These were in lined maroon livery or malachite green for the Southern's coaches, and could be seen behind steam on the Southern.

 

The next coach development were what I call the 'production' mkIIs, with the single sliding ventilator windows and in blue/grey livery, and of. course B4s, which appeared initially in 1966 in connection with the Euston/Birmingham/Liverpool/Manchester 25kv scheme, but appeared on the WR for South Wales and Bristol trains quite soon afterwards in connection with a timetable upgrade following speed restriction easing at Severn Tunnel, Patchway/Stoke Gifford, and Wootton Bassett.  By this time some mk1s were being refurbished with B4 bogies, which had become the standard fitting, but AFAIK none were fitted with B4s while still in lined maroon livery.  The refurb included blue/grey livery, new upholstery, internal panelling, and strip lighting.

 

I believe this was the beginning of the division of mk1s into 'A' and 'B' stock, as branded on the coach ends.  'A's were refurbished, on B4 or Commonwealth 100mph bogies, while 'B's were not, even when they were given blue/grey livery.  Retaining their original B1 bogies, wooden internal panelling, and fliament bulb lighting, though some were re-upholstered if the original was too far gone.  They were speed restricted to 75mph and used for excursion, charter, and relief work.

 

I am not aware of the date that mk1 and other stock had the footsteps removed from the ends, but suspect it was around this time.  The decision to remove the steps and plate them over introduced corrosion of the bodywork on some mk1s which led to earlier withdrawal and some work for preservationists decades later.  It was done as a safety measure in view of the increasing mileage of overhead electrified route.

 

3 minutes ago, chrisf said:

Plus the body shape,  of course.

 

I would not disagree with 1958 for the Dragon going choc-cream.  There were so many named trains that they could not all have been re-equipped at once!  It got its Mk 1 catering vehicles in late 1961/early 1962, very shortly before the decision was taken [circa Easter 1962] to abolish chocolate and cream!

 

Chris

This accords with my memory of the train.  It ran for some time, probably during 1961, with lined maroon catering vehicles, both refurbished Collett and mk1s, and even after the choc/cream mk1 restaurant cars were available a lined maroon mk1 sometimes substituted.  Lined maroon 'strengtheners' were also seen occasionally.  

 

This is inevitable of course whenever a 'set piece' rake is booked to circuit working, and vehicles have to be taken out at short notice and replaced for whatever reason.

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50 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

Nothing wrong with a bit of pedantry, Ian, I'm not immune myself!  According to Wikipedia, the B4 was introduced in 1963, which ties in with their appearance on the Class 123 Inter City dmus introduced that year.  Wiki states that the bogies were not applied to mk1s at Swindon, but were to the early mk2s produced there.  Having just had my memory proven inaccurate, I am questioning my 'KIng and B4 Bristolian' WSM photo'; I don't have a copy and it is something I saw in a magazine back in the 70s or 80s.  But I don't  think B4s existed in 1958-60.  There is vague reference to a B3 which may have been a drawing but never built.  What is certain is that a) the 4-car Inter City trains were introduced in 1963, and because one of their centres of operation was Cardiff I was familiar with them at that time, 11 years old, and rode in one to visit rellys in Tamworth in September of that year, and b) they had B4 bogies, the first I'd seen, including the power bogies.  

 

I'm not convinced by the Wiki on this at all. Sorry to quote Parkin again but he states that the first prototypes of what became the B4 appeared in 1956. There were a further 4 prototypes built and then a short production run which were fitted under the Red Dragon and Bristolian trainsets. When it was found that the bogies could do what was asked of them (ride acceptably for 150,000 miles) it was announced that they were to be fitted under new build coaches which was in 1963. That ties in with the introduction date on Wiki at least. I haven't seen anything to question what Parkin has written. 

 

Clearly B4 bogies were fitted to Mk1s prior to the intoduction of the Mk2s as there are dated photos showing them, including the one of the Red Dragon I linked earlier. These were rettrofits not new builds though.

 

On another issue of pedantry there was no such thing as a B1 or BR1 bogie. There was simply the BR Coach Bogie which came in various guises, single bolster, double bolster, heavy duty, etc. There was a BR1 (light) and a BR 2 (heavy) axlebox but that wasn't related to the bogie deisgn. Then there was the Commonwealths and then the B4 bogies. 

 

Justin

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Ok, so I've consulted my Hugh Longworth book of GWR/LNER coaches, and the following Hawksworths were built and released into revenue earning service before New Year's Eve 1947. As such, I think you can say with 99% certainty that they were outshopped in chocolate and cream livery with the Great - crest - Western signage.

 

Dia C82 (TK)

Nos. 781 to 832

Nos. 855 to 858

 

Dia D131 (BTK)

Nos. 833 to 854

 

Dia E163 (CK)

Nos. 7251 to 7253

 

All other Hawksworth stock was built after nationalisation, so to have any of the other diagrams (the FK, BCK and BG) in chocolate and cream is a fantasy - other than the two BCKs that were kept for special duties and that made it into preservation, as stated by an RMwebber above. 

 

Therefore, you can run the Honby TK, BTK and CK in the Great - crest - Western Chocolate and cream and be 'accurate'. 

 

Hope this helps.

 

Cheers.

 

CoY

 

 

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