Are these available in OO gauge?

[Sir TophamHatt]

Can't remember what they are called (steam isn't my foray).

Have a feeling they're available as a kit in a smaller gauge but not OO. 

[Joseph_Pestell]

Assuming that you mean 00 gauge rather than 1;76 scale, I don't think so. They are available as 5.5mm/ft kits to run on 12mm track.

[Joseph_Pestell]

1 minute ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

Assuming that you mean 00 gauge rather than 1;76 scale, I don't think so. They are available as 5.5mm/ft kits to run on 12mm track.

 

I'm not thinking straight. There is probably an 0/16.5 version.

 (We seem to have lost the edit facility).

[Steamport Southport]

Available in 4mm scale to run on 009/N gauge track from Langley.

 

https://www.langleymodels.co.uk/awd1/index.php?route=product/product&path=190_191_202&product_id=6215

 

If you mean 7mm to run on 00 track then there probably is a kit. But no idea where from. Probably better to look in the narrow gauge section of the forum, loads of information there.

 

About the locomotives themselves.

 

https://www.festipedia.org.uk/wiki/England_Engines

 

 

Jason

[The Johnster]

Edit is available; click on the 3 dots top right of panel after posting, which will drop a panel offering options to share, report, edit, or hide.  Click on the one you want, and proceed as before.

 

To help Sir Topham, the loco is a Ffestiniog Railway 'Small England' class; there are 2, Prince and Princess, both still extant.  00 gauge is not the scale but the distance between the rails, 16mmm, same as H0, but using a scale of 4mm/foot (1:76 scale ratio) not 3.5mm/foot (1:87 scale ratio).  Since the Ffestiniog is a '2 foot' narrow gauge railway, actually 1'11 and 5/8th inches, a Small England running on 16mm gauge track would be to a lot more than 1:76 scale.  It would be something like 8mm/foot and 1:38 scale.  If you wanted to run a 1:76 scale Small England it would need to be on 9.58mm track; most people use 9mm gauge track available commercially for N gauge.  

 

Are you keeping up at the back there?  Scales, gauges, and what they are called in model railways is a complex subject and brings the finescale P4 and similar skeletons out of their closets.  I've been mucking around with this stuff for over 60 years now but couldn't off hand tell you what H0e is, though I'd suspect it is to 1:87 scale ratio.  Real railways come in all sorts of gauges which add to the confusion.  00 gauge means 16mm track at the scale ratio of 1:76, which is wrong as this scales out at 4' gauge track.  There were 4' gauge railways , but the prototypes of the British models that are made to run on 'standard gauge' track, which has been 4'8½" since George Stephenson built the Stockton and Darlington.  16mm is correct for H0 gauge models. but a 1930s compromise for 00.  4mm/foot scale models should run on 18.83mm gauge track, P4; there is a compromise 18mm gauge called EM.

 

I work in 00 to RTR standards.

Edited October 1, 2020 by The Johnster

[Steamport Southport]

Mercian make them. 

 

http://www.modelrailways.tv/ng-7mm-locos.html#

[jjnewitt]

4 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

To help Sir Topham, the loco is a Ffestiniog Railway 'Small England' class; there are 2, Prince and Princess, both still extant.  00 gauge is not the scale but the distance between the rails, 16mmm, same as H0, but using a scale of 4mm/foot (1:76 scale ratio) not 3.5mm/foot (1:87 scale ratio).  Since the Ffestiniog is a '2 foot' narrow gauge railway, actually 1'11 and 5/8th inches, a Small England running on 16mm gauge track would be to a lot more than 1:76 scale.  It would be something like 8mm/foot and 1:38 scale.  If you wanted to run a 1:76 scale Small England it would need to be on 9.58mm track; most people use 9mm gauge track available commercially for N gauge.  

 

Of course none of this stopped John Ahern building something very similar in OO for the Madder Valley. :-)

 

Just to be pedantic. 1' 11 5/8" scales out at 7.875mm in 4mm scale. 

[Steamport Southport]

I totally forgot that Kato/Peco are making them in 009....

 

 

[Londontram]

11 hours ago, The Johnster said:

Edit is available; click on the 3 dots top right of panel after posting, which will drop a panel offering options to share, report, edit, or hide.  Click on the one you want, and proceed as before.

 

To help Sir Topham, the loco is a Ffestiniog Railway 'Small England' class; there are 2, Prince and Princess, both still extant.  00 gauge is not the scale but the distance between the rails, 16mmm, same as H0, but using a scale of 4mm/foot (1:76 scale ratio) not 3.5mm/foot (1:87 scale ratio).  Since the Ffestiniog is a '2 foot' narrow gauge railway, actually 1'11 and 5/8th inches, a Small England running on 16mm gauge track would be to a lot more than 1:76 scale.  It would be something like 8mm/foot and 1:38 scale.  If you wanted to run a 1:76 scale Small England it would need to be on 9.58mm track; most people use 9mm gauge track available commercially for N gauge.  

 

Are you keeping up at the back there?  Scales, gauges, and what they are called in model railways is a complex subject and brings the finescale P4 and similar skeletons out of their closets.  I've been mucking around with this stuff for over 60 years now but couldn't off hand tell you what H0e is, though I'd suspect it is to 1:87 scale ratio.  Real railways come in all sorts of gauges which add to the confusion.  00 gauge means 16mm track at the scale ratio of 1:76, which is wrong as this scales out at 4' gauge track.  There were 4' gauge railways , but the prototypes of the British models that are made to run on 'standard gauge' track, which has been 4'8½" since George Stephenson built the Stockton and Darlington.  16mm is correct for H0 gauge models. but a 1930s compromise for 00.  4mm/foot scale models should run on 18.83mm gauge track, P4; there is a compromise 18mm gauge called EM.

 

I work in 00 to RTR standards.

Sorry mate you couldn't just run that by me again I wasn't listening properly the first time.

[Dungrange]

12 hours ago, The Johnster said:

couldn't off hand tell you what H0e is, though I'd suspect it is to 1:87 scale ratio.

 

Correct.  H0e is the H0 equivalent of 009 - narrow gauge models to 1:87 scale running on model track with a gauge of 9 mm.  H0m is the same scale, but running on 12 mm track and normally used to represent metre gauge prototypes. 

 

To answer the original question though, you won't get a model of narrow gauge locomotive in 00 (which represents standard gauge prototypes). 

[Nile]

When discussing narrow gauge models it's important to mention the scale, or you get the sort of confusion as seen above.

[mcowgill]

15 hours ago, The Johnster said:

To help Sir Topham, the loco is a Ffestiniog Railway 'Small England' class; there are 2, Prince and Princess, both still extant.  

 

Don't forget Palmerston!  3 extant, Prince & Palmerston in working order

 

Martin

[John Harris]

2 minutes ago, mcowgill said:

 

Don't forget Palmerston!  3 extant, Prince & Palmerston in working order

 

Martin

 

Plus "Welsh Pony" as of this year.  

 

jch

[5050]

On the Madder Valley, I have an idea that 'Manx Kitten' is also an 'expanded' overscale version to fit a standard gauge situation.  There may be others!

[Butler Henderson]

Welsh Pony is a larger later version - the only survivor of two, the other being Little Giant.

[mcowgill]

9 minutes ago, John Harris said:

 

Plus "Welsh Pony" as of this year.  

 

jch

 

A significantly different beast, that's a "Large England" although Prince has grown during preservation to become something not too different.  Princess and Palmerston are noticeably smaller

Edited October 2, 2020 by mcowgill

[Phil Traxson]

16 hours ago, The Johnster said:

Edit is available; click on the 3 dots top right of panel after posting, which will drop a panel offering options to share, report, edit, or hide.  Click on the one you want, and proceed as before.

 

To help Sir Topham, the loco is a Ffestiniog Railway 'Small England' class; there are 2, Prince and Princess, both still extant.  00 gauge is not the scale but the distance between the rails, 16mmm, same as H0, but using a scale of 4mm/foot (1:76 scale ratio) not 3.5mm/foot (1:87 scale ratio).  Since the Ffestiniog is a '2 foot' narrow gauge railway, actually 1'11 and 5/8th inches, a Small England running on 16mm gauge track would be to a lot more than 1:76 scale.  It would be something like 8mm/foot and 1:38 scale.  If you wanted to run a 1:76 scale Small England it would need to be on 9.58mm track; most people use 9mm gauge track available commercially for N gauge.  

 

Are you keeping up at the back there?  Scales, gauges, and what they are called in model railways is a complex subject and brings the finescale P4 and similar skeletons out of their closets.  I've been mucking around with this stuff for over 60 years now but couldn't off hand tell you what H0e is, though I'd suspect it is to 1:87 scale ratio.  Real railways come in all sorts of gauges which add to the confusion.  00 gauge means 16mm track at the scale ratio of 1:76, which is wrong as this scales out at 4' gauge track.  There were 4' gauge railways , but the prototypes of the British models that are made to run on 'standard gauge' track, which has been 4'8½" since George Stephenson built the Stockton and Darlington.  16mm is correct for H0 gauge models. but a 1930s compromise for 00.  4mm/foot scale models should run on 18.83mm gauge track, P4; there is a compromise 18mm gauge called EM.

 

I work in 00 to RTR standards.

Small point, 00 gauge rtr track is 16.5mm gauge not 16mm. A 7mm/ 1ft scale kit is available from Mercian Models and a variety of Festiniog stock to complement it is available, complete kits  from myself at Port Wynnstay models or Scratch aid etched brass kits from Worsley Works.     

Edited October 2, 2020 by Phil Traxson

[Phil Traxson]

17 minutes ago, John Harris said:

 

Plus "Welsh Pony" as of this year.  

 

jch

Being pedantic Welsh Pony is an example of a Large England engine, although the general outline is the same.

 

[Sir TophamHatt]

Ah - I didn't know there was so much about scales.

 

But then I don't really pay attention to them per se - if it runs on track a OO Hornby HST runs on then I don't really care if it looks smaller or bigger than the environment around it.

 

I have a growing variety of HO and OO locos that I run on the tracks together, although I understand they're fairly close in scales anyway.

 

I'll probably opt for the Kato ones and see what turns up

[Oldddudders]

Just now, Sir TophamHatt said:

I'll probably opt for the Kato ones and see what turns up

You will need 9mm gauge track to be able to run it. These are 4mm scale locos that run on 9mm gauge track, otherwise known as OO9. 

[Phil Traxson]

The Kato one will be the correct scale but runs on 9mm gauge ("N") track.

 

I'm just not quick enough, beaten to the answer several times on this thread!!

Edited October 2, 2020 by Phil Traxson

[DCB]

42 minutes ago, Sir TophamHatt said:

Ah - I didn't know there was so much about scales.

 

But then I don't really pay attention to them per se - if it runs on track a OO Hornby HST runs on then I don't really care if it looks smaller or bigger than the environment around it.

 

I have a growing variety of HO and OO locos that I run on the tracks together, although I understand they're fairly close in scales anyway.

 

I'll probably opt for the Kato ones and see what turns up

If you want to know what will run on your track then the gauge, distance between the rails, is what matters not the scale. For instance  HO and OO are the same gauge, (16,5mm) OO and EM the same scale (4mm/ft)  EM and HO are different gauges (18mm and 16.5mm) simple!  John Ahearn of Madder Valley fame (at Pendon)  built locos to fit his tracks and adjusted the scale so they looked right with his other stock. His Ffestiniog Engand 0-4-0 as per the original enquiry was around twice its scale size as the original was 2ft gauge and he bigged it up to run on scale 4ft (or maybe 4ft 8) tracks.  He also did a Darjeeling Himalaya 0-4-0 and a Manx 3ft gauge 2-4-0T both hugely overscale but they looked right.  Biggest problem with the Englands is they overhand the rails sideways a long way and a 7mmft scale loco running on OO tracks really needs a wider gap between trains and more sideways clearance in tunnels etc.   A giant standard gauge England 0-4-0 is on my to do list.  Watch out for it on eBay when I can't get it quite right.

[The Johnster]

1 hour ago, Sir TophamHatt said:

Ah - I didn't know there was so much about scales.

 

But then I don't really pay attention to them per se - if it runs on track a OO Hornby HST runs on then I don't really care if it looks smaller or bigger than the environment around it.

 

I have a growing variety of HO and OO locos that I run on the tracks together, although I understand they're fairly close in scales anyway.

 

I'll probably opt for the Kato ones and see what turns up

That's fine, Sir Topham, so long as you stick with 00/H0 models and keep an eye on the loading gauge clearances for bridges, tunnels, between tracks etc. you don't have to worry about the plethora of scales, gauges, and standards, and can just get on with running the trains!  It is IMHO important though that you are at least aware of the difference between a gauge and a scale, and that you will see items referred to incorrectly as 00 scale, meaning 4mm/foot scale 1:76 scale ratio on 16.5,mm gauge track.  Pedantry perhaps but when you get into models like this one of narrow (or broad) gauge prototypes you will appreciate the need.

 

Didn't forget Palmerston, forgot that she was a Small rather than Large England, not that there's much difference these days in terms of outward appearance.  All have been rebuilt as saddle tanks with ful cabs long, long, ago and look like one class, though as is usual with locos of this venerable age there are individual differences between them, most of which are known only to those who repair locos in Boston Lodge by the midnight incantations of dread rituals by the unlight of black candles and sacrifice of virgins to dark entities, (but in the good way that leaves them smiling afterwards).  

 

The first 3 were Prince, Princess, and Palmerston, the Small England class and the first steam locos built for the 2' gauge, followed by the slightly bigger and more powerful but very similar looking Large Englands, Welsh Pony and Little Giant.  The railway then went for the double Fairlies, much faster and more powerful machines.

[Steamport Southport]

9 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

That's fine, Sir Topham, so long as you stick with 00/H0 models and keep an eye on the loading gauge clearances for bridges, tunnels, between tracks etc. you don't have to worry about the plethora of scales, gauges, and standards, and can just get on with running the trains!  It is IMHO important though that you are at least aware of the difference between a gauge and a scale, and that you will see items referred to incorrectly as 00 scale, meaning 4mm/foot scale 1:76 scale ratio on 16.5,mm gauge track.  Pedantry perhaps but when you get into models like this one of narrow (or broad) gauge prototypes you will appreciate the need.

 

Didn't forget Palmerston, forgot that she was a Small rather than Large England, not that there's much difference these days in terms of outward appearance.  All have been rebuilt as saddle tanks with ful cabs long, long, ago and look like one class, though as is usual with locos of this venerable age there are individual differences between them, most of which are known only to those who repair locos in Boston Lodge by the midnight incantations of dread rituals by the unlight of black candles and sacrifice of virgins to dark entities, (but in the good way that leaves them smiling afterwards).  

 

The first 3 were Prince, Princess, and Palmerston, the Small England class and the first steam locos built for the 2' gauge, followed by the slightly bigger and more powerful but very similar looking Large Englands, Welsh Pony and Little Giant.  The railway then went for the double Fairlies, much faster and more powerful machines.

 

You're missing Mountaineer. The third of the four small GEs built, but the first to arrive and actually the first to be in service.

 

https://www.festipedia.org.uk/wiki/Mountaineer

 

There's a new build under construction and will be a side tank.

 

https://www.festipedia.org.uk/wiki/Mountaineer_III

 

 

 

Jason

[The Johnster]

Probably because the only Mountaineer I ever saw was an Alco prairie, which presumably will have to be renamed when the new one is in service.  I've actually seen the others or at least their remains (not actually seen the restored Palmerston, last time I saw this loco it was mouldering away at the very furthest extent of Glan y Mor.