SteveyDee68 Posted January 26, 2021 Author Share Posted January 26, 2021 (edited) I planned on drawing out some more buildings on Sunday, but a quick ten minute trip to the local ASDA pharmacy to get meds for the dog turned into a whole day nightmare after some scumbags stole the catalytic converter from my car, literally hacking it out from underneath leaving damage hanging down to the floor and necessitating recovery from Green Flag. (The truly annoying thing is that the store is about a minute and a half from home, and I was going to walk but had to drive to the vets first to pick up a new prescription!) Today has been a day of phone calls and misery. Perhaps tomorrow I might return to my imaginary world where thieving gits do not exist. HOURS OF ANGER AND FRUSTRATION Edited January 31, 2021 by SteveyDee68 A just spotted typo! 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveyDee68 Posted January 26, 2021 Author Share Posted January 26, 2021 (edited) "Damn! Damn! Damn! Damn! Damn!" as Professor Henry Higgins said. Just had another look at my Google screenshot and compared it with old photos, and realised that there is an extra floor (boxed in red, below) that I missed due to the colourful hoardings around the base of the building. Damn and blast! I was thinking of putting a concrete building to the left of those I have mocked up, possibly the one to the right of the prototype buildings as it is thinner than that to the left, all in order to "bookend" the scenic composition of structures. But are all the proportions now out? "I've grown accustomed to her fac(ad)e", to misquote the good professor again. Edited January 26, 2021 by SteveyDee68 Typo Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveyDee68 Posted January 26, 2021 Author Share Posted January 26, 2021 I've decided to leave my previously drawn buildings well alone, mainly because I have 'freelanced' some access doors off a loading platform to the rear siding, so that actually takes care of the 'missing' floor I spotted on older photos. The front siding I will assume is accessed by trap doors and hoists from above, so open wagons will be shunted there, and the rear siding used for both open wagons and vans. Meanwhile, I have used the SS industrial boxfile rear right tower building to create a tall building for the left end next to the existing warehouse. As the windows are reminiscent of those on the distinctive J & W Paul concrete silo at the entrance to Ipswich docks, I'm retaining the concrete frame and brick infill of the boxfile design so that it doesn't draw direct comparison. I'll leave that for the right hand end! I've also mocked up Building 4 from the SS high street backs (the stone warehouse) to add a little depth at the right hand end of the first warehouse, and am then considering the SS firestation in slightly deeper low relief as either a workshop or offices (replacing the doors on the ground floor) before the rear wall and entrance to the quayside. At the moment, they feel like too much of a contrast to the rear warehouse but I will see how I feel again tomorrow. The next job is to mock up the rear right building, which will be all concrete construction, before moving back along the backscene with grain silos. Photos to follow when the light is better! HOURS OF FUN! 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveyDee68 Posted January 28, 2021 Author Share Posted January 28, 2021 (edited) Best laid plans and all that jazz... Not a jot of modelling possible today, what with Teams meetings and sourcing materials for online lessons etc... By the time I was free to do anything, it was too late in the evening! Oh well, out with the iPad and do some more image searching ... Having popped a paper template or two up yesterday, I've been worrying that the middle structures were too small in contrast to the tall warehouse to the left, and to the grain silos to the right. So, back to looking at photos of the old Ipswich wet docks, and another source of information from a site who are actually interested in the use of written language around the area, on buildings, signs, grids, buoys, you name it! Another deep but informative rabbit hole, which branched off into looking at Customs Houses! Ipswich, with its Italianate clock tower, is too recognisable, so a good look at as many as I could find, from Dundee to Padstow, to see if maybe something might stand out as having sufficient bulk for the centre of the layout. Of course, the customs house at Ipswich was competely dominated by the concrete silos built next to it, but I am trying to create something that has artistic balance (Ooo! Hark at him!!) What has been useful, though, was taking a look at a few other dock layouts on RMWeb - I can see an idea being "borrowed" from Peartree Docks to finish off the right hand end of the layout! HOURS OF FUN IN 2021! Edited January 28, 2021 by SteveyDee68 Why do typos only show themselves when you hit REPLY? 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveyDee68 Posted January 29, 2021 Author Share Posted January 29, 2021 (edited) Okay... Sketched up (literally) rough drawings of a couple of customs houses but need to draw them accurately to scale to see how they look on the layout. In the meantime, downloaded Kingsway Models freebie of No 10 Downing Street just to get an idea of some ready scaled houses/offices to plonk in place. Also quickly sketched out something more like the concrete silo building for the left end. Can't decide ... option A (brick) or B (concrete)? Option A - concrete frame with red brick infill, based upon the SS industrial boxfile tower building (because I didn't want it to scream Ipswich too much!) Option B - all concrete tower, based upon that at the left hand end of the original structure with the overtrack extensions. Sketched onto the foamboard, the pencil hasn't come out too well in the photo but basically four large squarish panels instead of the eight smaller panels in the previous picture. Ignore the bit of trackage sticking up on the right! Any preferences from anybody keeping an eye on this? I am genuinely torn and can't decide! Meanwhile, Boris has set up shop in the middle of the board! Edited January 29, 2021 by SteveyDee68 Photos wouldn't upload! Twice! 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveyDee68 Posted January 29, 2021 Author Share Posted January 29, 2021 (edited) Hopefully not infringing anybody's copyright, the following postcard is useful ... The four storey concrete building in the centre is the Burton's (biscuit) factory (which is how I recognised the location) and which is to the right of the imposing R & W Paul concrete silo at the entrance to the wet dock (with the gantry running overhead). The gantry is in place in the image above, and the tower on the edge of the dock has the apparatus for loading/unloading grain (I assume some kind of pneumatic system?), and matches the format of the machinery shown in the photo of the boat being unloaded, earlier in the thread. The postcard/photo predates the silo (as shown below) and is the only image I have found that doesn't show the tower boxed in - at least now I know for certain what it was! Edited January 29, 2021 by SteveyDee68 Adding second photo, correcting typos and clarifying text 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sb67 Posted January 29, 2021 Share Posted January 29, 2021 Those "mock ups" look great SteveyDee68. I prefer the concrete version myself, and really like the look and plan of the layout, I've been following this with interest. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Andrew D Posted January 29, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 29, 2021 Love your mock-ups. But your question is a toughie. Concrete would make a refreshing change and make your layout stand out among all the Scalescene Brick layouts that are fast becoming as popular as Metcalfe layouts (and I hasten to add there is nothing wrong with that, my layout is a Metcalfe Homage.) However, brick would blend in better and prevent the building sticking out like a sore thumb and monopolising your layout, giving you the Artistic Balance you mention. It’s a difficult call. I’d love to see the concrete but it’s not my time and effort down the pan if it can’t be blended in and goes in the bin. Good luck 1 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveyDee68 Posted January 29, 2021 Author Share Posted January 29, 2021 (edited) Woken up this morning thinking that concrete is the way forward, and two responses encouraging that! Result! Thanks to Steve (@sb67) and @Andrew D for responding so quickly! On 29/01/2021 at 08:37, Andrew D said: However, brick would blend in better and prevent the building sticking out like a sore thumb and monopolising your layout, giving you the Artistic Balance you mention. (I just discovered how to quote sections from previous posts instead of whole posts!!) I was also thinking about what you said above, Andrew, and looking at the colour photo above I realised that the concrete on the three buildings was different colours. The Cranfield Brothers silo (which I used as inspiration for the mock up) is a dirty cream/brown, R & W Paul's silo (with the gantry) is more of a cream colour, and Burtons looks white in comparison. So, my thoughts are now (running rear of the baseboard left to right) Cranfield Brothers concrete silo tower at left end, Cranfield Brothers brick warehouse with overtrack extensions, Burtons factory, (SS silo) and R & W Paul concrete silo tower at opposite end to balance compositionally. Three lots of concrete so will blend better, with aged brick, wood cladding and corrugated iron also in abundance? I do think that possibly there will be no room for a customs house or even a dock gateway once those are mocked in. What I am thinking is that the end buildings should be fully modelled on the "outer ends" so that interesting viewpoints exist along the layout (not sure how to achieve this yet, but am considering no backscene) with road access to the dock under the gantry at the right end (a little like in reality at Ipswich). Hmmmmm... HOURS OF FUN! Edited December 31, 2021 by SteveyDee68 Tidying up! 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TechnicArrow Posted January 29, 2021 Share Posted January 29, 2021 These mock-ups are fantastic, they add plenty height to the layout, and are detailed enough they give a pretty good impression of the finished articles. I think I prefer the brick-infill type construction for the tower, but that could just be because the mock-up offers a texture variety that seems more in keeping with the adjacent warehouse building than the "plain" concrete mock-up does at the moment. Whatever you produce it should work well, since you're giving plenty of detailed thought into composing the scene properly. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveyDee68 Posted January 29, 2021 Author Share Posted January 29, 2021 (edited) On 29/01/2021 at 11:59, TechnicArrow said: I think I prefer the brick-infill type construction for the tower, but that could just be because the mock-up offers a texture variety that seems more in keeping with the adjacent warehouse building than the "plain" concrete mock-up does at the moment. Thanks for your comments. Typically, I've turned it around again to see the brick infill version (which would make it 'fit' better), but if you look at Ipswich Wet Dock you see such juxtaposition of buildings (well, you did) all along the dock, with red brick buildings with stone architectural embellishments hard up against brutal, blocklike concrete buildings, Grade 1 listed buildings (the Customs House) nestled between corrugated iron 'carbuncles', themselves often overlaying older (and more architecturally interesting) buildings. As the layout is only four feet long, and there isn't much room for full depth buildings, I'm aiming for height to create the sense of the rails being crammed into a tight area. Years ago, I played a concert at New Brighton (on the bandstand), and the band travelled there on a coach. I had a Walkman (remember them?) and was listening to classical music with my eyes shut, taking little notice of where we were. At the point "Finlandia" started, I happened to open my eyes to find us driving between tall warehouses that stretched up on either side of us, so that you couldn't see the sky! All through the menacing, opening section of the music we drove between first brick and then concrete structures, the music providing the perfect 'soundtrack'. The only reason we were there was because of a detour for some roadworks! It made a lasting impression - hemmed in by colossal buildings with the ominous sounds of the brass section in my ears... I've always wanted to model that feeling - I think that is happening with Burnstow Dock! Steve S PS Listen to the opening of Finlandia on Spotify or iTunes - you'll get what I mean! Edited December 31, 2021 by SteveyDee68 Changed layout name for clarity in text 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TechnicArrow Posted January 29, 2021 Share Posted January 29, 2021 3 hours ago, SteveyDee68 said: I had a Walkman (remember them?) Well, I wasn't born until 1999... I do know what they are though, my dad had an (unfortunately non-working) one until it was stolen in an unfortunate series of events. And I had my own cassettes when I was younger too. Anyway, your description of tall imposing buildings both in real life and in model form sound excellent, I'm looking forward to seeing them rise up over your yard! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Ralf Posted January 30, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 30, 2021 10 hours ago, SteveyDee68 said: Typically, I've turned it around again to see the brick infill version If you're still on the fence I'd vote brick infill... Love the look of the dockside buildings with the support pillars over that siding, is it Scalescenes prints and scratch building for those? Ralf 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dpaws Posted January 30, 2021 Share Posted January 30, 2021 On 21/01/2021 at 22:56, Angliacan said: Here the area at top of St Peters Quay at top corner of Ipswich Wet Dock taken last month. The new Highrise towers are called The Mill & The Winerack, the Winerack was Knickname given by the locals to when work on the concrete under -structure was stop by the late 2000’d crash leave it looking like an oversized Winerack. It has since been finished. I do love the abstract nature of the reflection, great photo! With regards to the fabulous row of cast iron columns, does anyone have their measurements and spacings recorded? By eye I'm estimating 14ft tall spaced 12ft apart and a 15" dia > 12" dia taper top to bottom... Any better offers? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveyDee68 Posted January 31, 2021 Author Share Posted January 31, 2021 (edited) On 30/01/2021 at 11:35, dpaws said: By eye I'm estimating 14ft tall spaced 12ft apart and a 15" dia > 12" dia taper top to bottom... Well, I've tried finding out by looking online but simply haven't found that information. Perhaps if @Angliacan might take a tape measure with him next time he pops down the docks on his "Boris-walk" and measure them up?! My models are going to be 'impressionistic' and don't need to be perfectly accurate (as long as wagons and locos fit underneath, of course!). And so as @Ralf guesses, there's going to be a lot of reliance upon Scalescenes elements such as windows plus an element of scratch building (or bodgery, in my case ) Hours of fun for everyone!* * rhyme only works if said in a West Yorkshire accent! Edited December 31, 2021 by SteveyDee68 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angliacan Posted January 31, 2021 Share Posted January 31, 2021 Just had a Boris-time walk the pillars are about 12 ft apart as a single small fence post with chains in the middle between pillars. In that small area are 3 different style of pillars 1st the old style with peeling paint, then modern concrete one then the older cast but clean up large ones along a short section of Albion Wharf. 3 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveyDee68 Posted January 31, 2021 Author Share Posted January 31, 2021 (edited) Thank you, again @Angliacan for the new photos and information - hadn't noticed that pillars were different on the various structures, so that is really useful to know! I was originally thinking about using a couple of Dapol station canopy kits to provide the pillars, but in retrospect they seem a bit spindly. If I modelled straight columns rather than tapered, I'd get away with using various diameters of plastic tubing ... or I may even model them as square pillars, just to take them another step away from the originals! HOURS OF FUN! Edited December 31, 2021 by SteveyDee68 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angliacan Posted January 31, 2021 Share Posted January 31, 2021 (edited) Here more from today walk the 1st photo is the St Peter Wharf area around Stoke Bridge. The 2nd on of the few convert Warehouse Structure on the Waterfront on Albion Wharf. The St Peter Quay area is the next to be re developed. Edited January 31, 2021 by Angliacan 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angliacan Posted January 31, 2021 Share Posted January 31, 2021 (edited) Just been sorting out photos as upgrading pc. Found some more earlier photos of Ipswich Wet Dock and grain handling. Also some photos of 08 on the upper end of Ipswich Docks Branch crossing River Orwell nearer the station. Edited January 31, 2021 by Angliacan 7 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveyDee68 Posted January 31, 2021 Author Share Posted January 31, 2021 Those photos are brilliant! The office would look great at the right hand end of my layout ... need to find space somehow! The shots showing all the equipment just cry out for it all to be modelled. Thank you so much for sharing such fantastic resources with RMWeb. I think it is a shame that the redevelopment has lost a lot of the character of the existing buildings - I'm sure corrugated iron could be replaced with more modern eco friendly replacements, without having to wholesale tear everything down. Steve S 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dpaws Posted February 1, 2021 Share Posted February 1, 2021 Wow! Angliacan, thank you so much for sharing all of those photos and for taking the trouble - really appreciated. Next time you have a wonder down there... please, could you take a ball of string and measure all the way around one of the original columns as you would measure a trouser waist. From that we can confirm the column diameter. I'm also curious if, in your opinion, the original's taper - my engineering theory books suggest that they should. To replicate in OO you may find that a street/yard/station platform light column might just come up trumps! The nearest I recall that may be lying in my scrapbox at home would be the Dapol water tank kit main leg supports. https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=20&lat=52.05214&lon=1.15590&layers=168&b=9 Meanwhile I have a made some progress via online sources. Using the digital distance measuring tool against this 25 inch/mile map from 1904 I have 60 metres for a span of 13 columns, a 16ft space between each. This equates to a 66mm spacing (4mm) or 115mm (7mm). The original mill building as Steve has sketched (the two peaked gables plus the rectangular extension) is 32m across the face. This equates to 421mm (4mm) or 736mm (7mm). The rear of the rectangular extension approx 9.2m. I hadn't realised that I enjoy historical research so much! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephenwolsten Posted February 1, 2021 Share Posted February 1, 2021 Steve - Apart from my Atlantic Dock thread, I also have masses of reference pictures on Pinterest and Flickr. My Pinterest Boards include not only one with hundreds of Liverpool dock layout pictures, but also two Boards of Urban and Industrial pictures. You will find plenty of warehouses etc in the respective galleries. Warning: my reference stuff is a great time waster! https://www.pinterest.co.uk/stephenwolstenh/_saved/ https://www.flickr.com/photos/16896988@N08/galleries Good luck. Stephen 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveyDee68 Posted February 1, 2021 Author Share Posted February 1, 2021 (edited) Oh wow - just ... wow!! Very quickly scooted over and you have given me a couple of rabbit holes to fall down completely for ... well ... see you all in March! Thank you, Stephen (@Stephenwolsten), for giving access to all those inspirational photos. I didn't set out to model Ipswich Wet Dock accurately, but with so much information being given by so many, it will be hard to avoid the temptation to do so! (No! I don't want a GER region layout! Too much time and investment into SR locos and stock!) Mind you, a tram engine or two are very tempting, plus fit in with my general fetish for dock shunters, and surely there's no harm (other than to my bank balance).... In other news, my warehouse measures out at 38cm long, so some ten scale feet shorter than measured by @dpaws above! But then, to misquote The Fast Show, "Lovely fit, sir, lovely fit. Suits you, sir, suits you!" HOURS OF SUN!* * Yes, the sun came out today! Edited December 31, 2021 by SteveyDee68 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dpaws Posted February 1, 2021 Share Posted February 1, 2021 7 hours ago, SteveyDee68 said: In other news, my warehouse measures out at 38cm long, so some ten scale feet shorter than measured by dpaws above! But then, to misquote The Fast Show, "Lovely fit, sir, lovely fit. Suits you, sir, suits you!" That sounds absolutely perfect - approx HO scale which is very acceptable and will achieve a natural forced perspective, especially if you reinforce the effect with 1/76 figures foreground and 1/87 next to the mill wall. Thank you Stephen (Stephenwolsten) - I'm off down one of your rabbit holes - thanks to your superb collection I've discovered the artwork of Trevor Grimshaw - wonderful stuff! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveyDee68 Posted February 5, 2021 Author Share Posted February 5, 2021 (edited) And just like that another week has passed! Due to producing materials for online "rehearsals" for the Music Centre where I work, I haven't had much time to do anything further with the layout, although a pressing need to tidy up yesterday led to finding (or rediscovering) a whole raft of useful books in my dad's collection, including the two shown below. Why do I even mention this? Well, after reading Barry Norman's book before bed last night, his words 'A siding ... that holds only three or four wagons can look very unprototypical. It is much better to leave it out ... and have fewer, but longer, sidings' have been ringing in my ears, and I've had a crisis of confidence over my track plan! I am now wondering have I crammed too many tracks into the space? My 'reasoning' for the interweaved points and diamond crossing was that there was limited space on the quayside, but have I actually gone a step too far and not left enough room to model the quay with any semblance of reality? Mr Rice did restore my faith in having lots of sidings, but I can't help wondering if less is more... Please feel free to comment, make suggestions, modify my track plan etc! Aaaargh! Edited February 5, 2021 by SteveyDee68 Typo (spotted too late!) 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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