Jump to content
 

Burnstow Dock (inspired by Ipswich/Great Yarmouth)


Recommended Posts

Thanks again, @Angliacan, for the new photos. I particularly like the second one, which shows the original R & W Paul building and the gantry over to the wharf, before they built the huge concrete building in its place. This is also a different angle to another photo which showed the same from the bridge over the river.

 

I know that when I build Broadhaven that I'll be building a longer quayside on the opposite side of the room from the station, and I have a feeling it will end up bearing a strong resemblance to Ipswich! 

 

Meanwhile I ponder on regarding reducing the number of/lengthening the sidings on Burnstow Dock!

 

HOURS OF PONDERING!

Edited by SteveyDee68
Layout name changes
Link to post
Share on other sites

I can understand your dilemma on the sidings, I guess it's if you prefer how the layout looks or if you want better playability. Looking at your plan I reckon you could lose a couple of the 3 wagon siding and still have a lot to shunt. 

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

Just now, sb67 said:

I can understand your dilemma on the sidings, I guess it's if you prefer how the layout looks or if you want better playability. Looking at your plan I reckon you could lose a couple of the 3 wagon siding and still have a lot to shunt. 

 

Thanks, Steve, that was exactly the way I was thinking. I don't really want to lose the two sidings at the rear left as otherwise why go to the hassle of a diamond crossing to get into them? They will actually both hold four wagons each if I don't have the tall building at the end, but I liked that for closing off the end of the board.

 

Hmmm ... 

 

Steve S

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Gold
1 hour ago, sb67 said:

I can understand your dilemma on the sidings, I guess it's if you prefer how the layout looks or if you want better playability. Looking at your plan I reckon you could lose a couple of the 3 wagon siding and still have a lot to shunt. 

 

Quite agree, esp 1 of the front left sidings...

 

I wonder could you make some of the warehouse sidings through roads into the edge of the fiddle yard perhaps? Leave other warehouse doors closed and have short sidings but allow the front and rear-most sidings to be far longer and shunt deep into each warehouse? 

 

Ralf

  • Interesting/Thought-provoking 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, I've had a play about considered quite a few tweaks ...

 

Long story short, the three way point is gone and a simple kick-back siding along the edge of the wharf where there were three 'Inglenook' sidings!  As a result, much more room for both the quayside and the dock itself.

 

@Ralf- I like your thinking! There might be a way of doing that, although access to the rear left warehouse sidings is via a deliberately short headshunt!

 

HOURS OF FUN!

 

 

Edited by SteveyDee68
  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, Ralf said:

 

Quite agree, esp 1 of the front left sidings...

 

I wonder could you make some of the warehouse sidings through roads into the edge of the fiddle yard perhaps? Leave other warehouse doors closed and have short sidings but allow the front and rear-most sidings to be far longer and shunt deep into each warehouse? 

 

Ralf

 

I thought that, or maybe the back left siding could go through to the fiddle yard so that wagons need to be sorted as though they have to go to another part of the docks or a loaded open wagon could be unloaded in the fiddle yard and return empty.

Edited by sb67
  • Interesting/Thought-provoking 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Steve (@sb67) set me thinking again (always dangerous!) so rather than rush in all hot headed, I thought I would re-read some of the threads which have inspired me, including Steve's own Peckett Wharf. When Steve was still in his planning stages, @Harlequinsuggested a trackplan with the dock edge at the rear (like Arun Quay) and stock cassettes off the front (which I really liked*). More importantly, he used a diamond crossing because it is a feature of dockside tracks to have lines suddenly cross one another that he wanted to include.

 

Meanwhile I had "slimmed down" the front sidings in my plan, and looking at Canute Road Quay (another much admired layout) I realised that I had unconsciously gravitated towards utilising the same kickback siding to access the quayside at the front. (I was also gobsmacked to realise that my baseboard is exactly the same length as that award-winning layout, just a little deeper!)

 

What occured to me was that if I used another diamond crossing I might have access to two sidings without any issues of having to leave room on a siding to use as a headshunt for the kickback siding! I don't know how realistic this might be, but its a bit of a epiphany (word of the day) and so all I need to do now is source a diamond crossing and try that out!**

 

Oh. Yeah. That!

 

HOURS OF LOCKDOWN FUN!

 

* I suspect this was where my use of a diamond crossing originated!

** My current design can be run as an Inglenook puzzle - I won't know until I try it whether incuding a second diamond crossing might preclude that. Decisions, decisions!

 

Edited by SteveyDee68
Typo!
  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

I really liked the way Arun Quay has used the diamond crossing, I think he deliberately did it to add a bit some extra moves when shunting. I l pinched his idea of the dock edge at the back as it was something different, unfortunately I couldn't paint or find a suitable backscene to use so left it blank. 

Good luck with your ideas, look forward to seeing them.

  • Thanks 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

On Sunday whislt walking home from work past Wet Dock, these photos show the back of Old Building between the The Mill & Winerack, this is the building with the pillars in front that has been the subject of much discussion on here. Around the back of many of the new buildings are the older Malting ans Wharfeside structure. I think the 2 concrete building are even listed, but have been negleted a bit since the finish the industrial use.

 

IMG_7993.JPG.8e8117900c3ab21c0bff3ed805510379.JPGAlso I included a couple of ollder building just behind the Wet Dock which could feature on backsences. The Gateway is the last remaining building from Wosley College which was demolished when Henry 8th fell out with Catholic Church & Cardinal Thomas Wosley, a Ipswich lad over one his 6th wives. There's a Statue of Wosley on St Peter St near his birthplace and looking towards the docks you can see the old pub.

IMG_7997.JPG.b52343e1491cfef1bbd0bff477b27124.JPG

The 2nd is an old pub which is listed and duee to become part of a Heritage Informatiom centre for the Waterfront. Just showing these older building formed part of the Wet Dock scene around St Peter Quay & Abion Wharf.  IMG_7998.JPG.5e964b15346de87c7c8cbb7732f3b8a9.JPG

Edited by Angliacan
  • Like 3
  • Friendly/supportive 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Thank you again, @Angliacan - and I do like the pub! I'll see if I can find it on any of the old photos and find out what it was called.

 

Mind you, as I've said, I am not actually modelling Ipswich docks accurately, just trying to capture a 'flavour' of them for a freelance dock scene, but keeping buildings from the same area should (I hope) give some unity to the overall look rather than going completely freelance, and your photos (and others I have been pointed to) all help with that aim.

 

Meanwhile, Jim had a short diamond so have had another change of plan. Happier with the diamond accessing the front sidings...

 

Last thing I am left to ponder - whether to have a single siding at the front left of the board with the smaller warehouse behind it (as a scene blocker to the main exit) or, to have the siding enter into the warehouse (and then through to the fiddle yard); or, split it into two sidings, the rear of which enters the fiddle yard through the warehouse, the front being a dead end?

 

By writing it down here, I can come back to this and read it again and that helps me rethink things! 

 

HOURS OF FUN!

Edited by SteveyDee68
  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

13 hours ago, Angliacan said:

Just found this link in local paper Ipswich Star. This is 4 Collage St Ipswich but no mention of a pub in it past. https://www.ipswichstar.co.uk/news/ipswich-borough-council-waterfront-entrance-plans-2885770

 

Thanks again - it doesn't mention it in the article, but it did allow me to dive down into the Ipswich Council Planning Portal rabbit hole, from which I have extracted external elevations (thank you, Mr Architect!) but also some plans and elevations regarding The Mill development, which have a few outlines of relevant buildings from which I might rustle up some appropriate dimensions for basing model buildings upon.

 

Sadly, older applications (which would have had plans and elevations of most of the mills and silos due to having to show existing and proposed changes) have not been scanned into the system and so are not available on line. I guess they might be in the archive files, but given the cost of storage and the way councils are forced to "streamline" their activities these days I would be very surprised if they weren't shredded long ago.

 

A few things have forcibly struck me looking at the development plans...

 

Firstly, the new structures dwarf what was previously built - and I don't just mean the monstrosity of The Mill - everything new appears to be higher than what was previously there (if I can get the proposed elevation sketch of the waterfront view to load up here, you can clearly see how the new structures tower over the original buildings) UPDATE I don't need the elevation sketch - you can see it for real in Angliacan's earlier photo below ...

 

IMG_1625.JPG

 

Secondly, I despair at the total lack of empathy shown by the architects to the history of the area, from basic shapes to building materials employed. The current proposal for the Burtons Biscuit factory, for example, basically replaces all the infill panels between the structural beams with glass - and in the process destroys the entire character of the building! Considering that most buyers are looking for character in their properties, it does make me wonder who the target market the developers have in mind are when they make it all look generically 'modern'. (Yes, I would be a nightmare for developers if I was chairing the Planning Committee!)

 

Thirdly, I would not purchase the "flats" or "studios" being designed for these new buildings - having worked on a Rowntree Foundation research project back in the 90s about how space in house design was compromised for profit, the limitations of the proposed designs leap off the plan at me! I could completely destroy any estate agent's sales patter with the single question, "Storage?" I can only assume that these bedsits flats apartments (?!) were designed by a Budhist monk because I see nowhere for any clothes to be stored, let alone personal possessions or even more importantly model railways!

 

I admit to going very off topic there for a while but at least I got back to model railways in the end!

 

HOURS OF FUN!

Edited by SteveyDee68
Added photo
Link to post
Share on other sites

As an aside, having being critical of the architects, I have to admit that the two "towers" in the above photo faced with dark cladding materials at least bear some resemblance to the corrugated iron clad buildings there previously.

 

I don't know who designed the glass monstrosity below (as photographed by @Angliacan) but it looks more like a throwback to an 80s designed "mall" than anything ever seen along the Ipswich dock front! I actually wonder at times what Planning Committees are thinking when approving such - if I borrow Prince Charles's word - 'carbuncles'?!

 

 

 

 

IMG_1626.JPG

Edited by SteveyDee68
Link to post
Share on other sites

Okay, I take back a little about what I said about the architects ...

 

This building does manage to pay homage to what was there originally (even if there are a lot of windows dotted haphazardly!) but the more I look at the tower of The Mill the more I think it was designed using assorted LEGO blocks by a six year old influenced by the designs of Gerry Andersen in Thunderbirds!

 

 

IMG_1649.PNG

Link to post
Share on other sites

On 10/02/2021 at 10:54, SteveyDee68 said:

I don't know who designed the glass monstrosity below (as photographed by Angliacan)

IMG_1626.JPG

 Welll that view is taken a few years ago pre digital camera so I guess early 2000's well before any of the Malting Silo's were re developed. The glass building is is a modern front on the older brick structure and has the pillars from it industrial days now named Ashons.

Here the same view last Sunday. The brick building about half way along the quay in the 1st photo is still there it the 2 concrete tower silo which have gone and been redeveloped. Think it might even still be the same boat which is aWaterfront floating resturant.

IMG_7986.JPG

Edited by Angliacan
  • Informative/Useful 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

On 05/02/2021 at 15:00, SteveyDee68 said:

Please feel free to comment, make suggestions, modify my track plan etc! Aaaargh!

 

The more clever you can be off-stage (traversers, sector plates etc) the more simple you can be on-stage where it matters without losing running potential.  :sungum:  Keep away from the mainlines where space was often plentiful and migrate to industrial or dock scenes for inspiration where the intensity of trackwork is often disguised under stone setts. 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

 

On 10/02/2021 at 04:36, SteveyDee68 said:

 

Thanks again - it doesn't mention it in the article, but it did allow me to dive down into the Ipswich Council Planning Portal rabbit hole, from which I have extracted external elevations (thank you, Mr Architect!) but also some plans and elevations regarding The Mill development, which have a few outlines of relevant buildings from which I might rustle up some appropriate dimensions for basing model buildings upon.

 

 

Tripped over these whilst likely down the same rabbit hole - although this looks to be after the modifications on the 70s rather than the earlier structure when the site was in full swing.  The scale should be reliable.

 

Screenshot 2021-02-11 at 23.31.28.png

top grid.png

Edited by dpaws
  • Like 2
  • Informative/Useful 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks, @dpaws, I hadn't seen that particular drawing, which does give much more detail to the Cranfield Bros mill buildings than the others I found (which were simple outlines). That will let me get a level of appropriate "gingerbread" on my version! The extensions over the columns in the drawing are the new versions for sure, as older photographs show each extension the same width as the building behind.

 

In related news, a modeller on Facebook put a photo up of his version of the arcade (is that the right term?) using Peco overhead roof columns for the supporting columns. They looked really good, but upon investigation I'd need to spend £25+ on a kit off eBay to be able to use just six columns - or just over £4 each! I think I shall find a more ahem cost effective way to model them! (Admittedly, he had got them in a second hand job lot of bits, so probably a lot cheaper than buying the kit just to discard the majority of it!)

 

Will put up a revised track plan over the weekend; I've simplified the foreground wharf area, but by adding one point at the back have increased siding capacity from four to six wagons at the right hand end - and am wondering about a mirror trick to "extend" those!

 

I do appreciate what you mean about off stage trickery, but I prefer not to have to "work the backstage area" when amusing myself running trains. And despite having a little experiment building a working wagon turntable out of a CD/case, any on the layout will be purely cosmetic!

 

HOURS OF FUN!

Edited by SteveyDee68
Link to post
Share on other sites

Interesting Fact

 

There is still a commercail terminal within the Wet Dock Ipswich, this is the Anglo Nordon Timber Warehouse which see regular sailing from the Suntis, which most be the largest regular ship to pass through the Lock Gates into the Wet Dock.. The rest of the Wet Docks is Leisure   yahcts and  or  moorings for boats from Government Bodies such as Trinty House & Border Force. These photos were taken last Monday in early afternoon as the Suntis is leaving  backing out of Wet Dock Lock Gates at High Tide.

 

IMG_8075.JPG.dc0b4d169e926fbe16a72a11d6a649dd.JPG

 

IMG_8076.JPG.a63813175872343a57785310d4ab0a45.JPG

The Anglo Norden Timber Warehouse to the left, the Quay which is where I'm standing taking the photo and the Suntis is in the Lock Gate.

IMG_8090.JPG.1c397bb7adf5f552606dbca8012b7df4.JPG

 

THe Suntis is unloaded by mobile cranes and fort lift straight into the Warehouse. Long gone is any rail traffic to the Wet Dock. The only Rail Srved Terminal in Ipswich is the West Bank across the River Orwell, with it branch line south facing of the main Liverpool St Norwich GEML, so traffic is from the south.

Edited by Angliacan
  • Like 1
  • Informative/Useful 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Once again, thanks for the new photos. Was particularly interested in the level luff portal cranes on the right hand side of the photo - I'm wondering how old they are? They don't look "ultra modern" but are definitely younger than the folder of examples I have put together from older photos I've found on the web. They also look like they are a very "model-friendly" size.

 

Meanwhile other commitments have kept me away from any proper progress - I haven't even scanned and uploaded my new plan as promised! (Slacking, tut tut!)

 

Meanwhile, some correspondence with @Gibboof this parish is guiding me towards my own interpretation of a Y6/J70 tram engine, a lot cheaper than purchasing the Model Rail version! (Having said that, I wouldn't turn one down!) And thoughts of a skirted Drewery/04 are also running through my mind!

 

Steve S

Edited by SteveyDee68
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Premium

I am in the process of altering a Bachmann Drewry 04 to skirted version using 3D printed parts I found on line and checker plate from Narrow Planets. I can let you have the name of the supplier of the 3D printed side skirts and cow catchers if you are interested. 
 

CC98C2B9-4F1E-4432-9007-E91D2F7B0E55.jpeg.760cf0e16568ebeb539b8edf9ea0cc65.jpeg

 

  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites

On 20/02/2021 at 12:29, Ramrig said:

I am in the process of altering a Bachmann Drewry 04 to skirted version using 3D printed parts I found on line and checker plate from Narrow Planets. I can let you have the name of the supplier of the 3D printed side skirts and cow catchers if you are interested. 

 

Now, I do like what you are doing there @Ramrig - I have an older, split chassis, black livery Bachmann 04 that I picked up a while ago off eBay at a very good price and am currently trying to land myself a second, preferably in green livery so I can justify chopping about my existing loco! Of course, being behind skirts, there is a good argument to put any old mechanism underneath and not worry about jackshafts etc - I have a Bachmann Junior "not Thomas" loco/mechanism that happens to have exactly the same footplate dimensions as my 04, and @Gibbo suggested using that under a Dapol kit suitably modified (and instead getting a Dapol pug mechanism for the Y6).

 

Quite happy for you to put details on this thread of the parts you used - although my model isn't of Ipswich Docks per se, there's a fair few folk depositing relevant information here on all matters related, and I'm more than happy for that to continue if it helps others. (If you'd rather PM me, that's fine too).

 

Are you modelling the W&U, Ipswich or Great Yarmouth by any chance? 

 

Steve S

Edited by SteveyDee68
Typos
Link to post
Share on other sites

Been down Wet Dock today. Here a few more photos. Here the Older Corrigated Shed as seen in an older photo it was black. The shed is part of central island of Wet Dock/

 

IMG_8101.JPG.e11ddbd636939fc99f84dcc71337d9ba.JPG

Here are the 2 cranes on the island . Don't tgink there in use any more . Here a close up of them.  They look the same type just at slightly different angle, hard to get a good clear photo from between the boat masts. IMG_8108.JPG.44398b1ec3724d550ba8ee790e50ba81.JPGIMG_8104.JPG.e0bb541946c90b7495cc39b87e058c77.JPGIMG_8107.JPG.e077555a4ef12110ec31cd0a53707a62.JPG

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...