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PP Set 381


Mallard60022
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I have the Bedford 'Kit' for this and very nice etches they are as always; sides, ends and some other bits yet to be identified (knowing what those bits are would be really helpful; I could show them on here with a photo)! Circa 1960/61 at Seaton Junction as shown above is my era.

If anyone has built this, has contemplated it or hasn't just got around to it yet, I would really appreciate any advice including where I might obtain some decent drawings.

Is there something RTR that is suitable to use as a Carcase (thus supplying the basic underframe) otherwise what other parts did you manage to acquire or did you have to scratch build the lot? I can get a 57' Comet UF/Chassis/some suitable parts or similar from elsewhere. 

Many thanks,

Phil

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Sets 381-385 were all converted from ex-LSWR Ironclad carriage two-sets (which had previously formed through branch line portions on main line trains). There are drawings in Mike King's book on Southern Pull & Push sets and I am sure that Mike sells drawings of them separately too. The Ironclads were distinctively "different" carriages, even the bogies were unusual, and I am not sure that any suitable ready-to-run starting point exists. Although they bear some superficial resemblance to the early Maunsell low-window carriages, a superficial resemblance is all that it is.

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I've heard of people using Graham Farish 'Maunsell' coaches in either scale (2-4mm) and following Model Railway Constructor guides from the 1960s (Terry Gough's, I do believe) to create semblances of 'Ironclads'. You might have some joy there, and then use either Phoenix (now Southern Railway Group I think?) bogies in 4mm, or blag using Maunsell or LSWR standard ones. New buffers and gangways, and some other detailing parts, and you're on your way. 

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I know of at least one modeller who builds his Ironclads by overlaying the sides on the carcasses of Dapol LMS 57ft coach bodies.  And, this is sacrilege, but at a pinch with half closed eyes you could pass the LMS 9ft wb bogies off as Warner 9ft wb 'VS' (single frame) bogies which these coaches had.

 

Normally the Southern Railways Group/Phoenix could supply the correct 'VS' bogies (as well as double framed 'Dreadnoughts') and the requisite ends etc but we are out of stock and the ill health retirement of  our caster has coincided with the Pandemic so it is difficult at present to make the long round trip to recover our moulds and attempt to make new arrangements but it is hoped to do so as soon as possible.  In the meantime the only castings I can supply are the Pull-Push end + the duckets with droplights cut into them.  I also have the plain duckets for the other end but not the matching ends!

 

Incidentally my own set has 247 Developments etched sides, Phoenix aluminium floor and solebars, Phoenix cast ends and bogies, and a Comet roof!

 

Chris KT

 

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Thanks all. I might borrow the King P P Sets Book or just accidentally buy it and add it to the estate that will need to be executed by some poor sod.

I am used to hacking donor coaches and adding Brass Sides, but that is usually to just change the Diagram of an existing coach, for example Dapol Kit (or old Airfix RTR) of Stanier Coach + replacement sides or Gresleys, using whatever sides are available.  I'm also fine with (say) Comet Coach Kits so could hack existing UF/s and parts to suit. 

My issues here are not the really decent etches from Bill B, but having no indication of what goes where for the ends etc. and those 'extra bits' I mentioned.  I'm not that fussed about the bogies and can fettle something to overlay suitable donors using photos of Ironclads.  I will have a look at Roxey Mouldings site as well.

No gangways required of course.

Chris, your set sounds 'interesting'. I don't think 247 do those sides now, but I haven't checked. I think the Comet Roof extrusion is about the right profile too. 

I shall show a pic of the Bedford parts here as they are good as far as I can see. However, I really appreciate your offer of parts. 

20201003_133338.jpg.d42233d35f68cdd3ecb9c205bad97565.jpg

 

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49 minutes ago, bécasse said:

There are some good photos of the unusual Ironclad bogies (after conversion for engineering use - but the bogies were unchanged) in this topic, oddly also originated by Mallard60022, albeit some years ago.

Blimey, I had forgotten that, but the pictures of that set at Bournemouth is great. Thanks matey.

P

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Roxey do a 58ft Maunsel and a 56ft LSWR non corridor underframe, and a detailing kit for Ironclad underframes, I have no idea if any of those will do, but I'm sure Dave will know, help you if he can, and won't just supply something that you don't want just for a sale.

 

https://www.roxeymouldings.co.uk/category/27/4mm-scale-underframes-bogies-compensation/

Jon

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1 hour ago, jonhall said:

Roxey do a 58ft Maunsel and a 56ft LSWR non corridor underframe, and a detailing kit for Ironclad underframes, I have no idea if any of those will do, but I'm sure Dave will know, help you if he can, and won't just supply something that you don't want just for a sale.

 

https://www.roxeymouldings.co.uk/category/27/4mm-scale-underframes-bogies-compensation/

Jon

Thanks buddy. I went over there, had a good look and there are some great bits and bobs. Dave is a real gent isn't he. He has given me great service in the past; last sae him a couple of years back at the Donny 7mm event.

I have a load of 57 foot old coaches laying around so i will have a poke with that lot.

I have been racking my brain cell all day trying to remember who the other supplier of sides and kits is; more 3mm but does a load of 4mm and can make up the 3mm stuff to 4mm. I am sure they have some ironclad stuff.

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On 03/10/2020 at 20:29, Blandford1969 said:

As I've got similar parts to build in the future, this will be interesting to see how you go. 

I'll attempt to keep you informed . Two 57 floors coming from Worsley Works and I shall go back and look at the bits from Roxey (UF detail bits etc.)

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I had by coincidence recently dug out my set of sides from the now defunct 247 Developments range as I was also going to have a go at one of the PP sets. Looks very similar to your etches Phil. As others have said there are drawings in the Mike King Pull Push book if you can get hold of a copy, but beware I believe the roof profile is wrong on the drawing (doesn't match the etches or pictures of these coaches). There is also some good information in Weddell's LSWR Coaches of the 20th Century book (if you can find a copy) as well as useful information on bogie types fitted (there were several) to Ironclads.

 

Like you I have been pondering on what frame to hang the etches on, especially with the 'cut ins' to the sides in front of the duckets on both coaches. Also there will be some nifty bending required as it also goes from a tumblehome to flat sides at the same time!

 

I will be watching your progress with interest. Best of luck!

 

Tony

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On 08/10/2020 at 20:49, 145 Squadron said:

I had by coincidence recently dug out my set of sides from the now defunct 247 Developments range as I was also going to have a go at one of the PP sets. Looks very similar to your etches Phil. As others have said there are drawings in the Mike King Pull Push book if you can get hold of a copy, but beware I believe the roof profile is wrong on the drawing (doesn't match the etches or pictures of these coaches). There is also some good information in Weddell's LSWR Coaches of the 20th Century book (if you can find a copy) as well as useful information on bogie types fitted (there were several) to Ironclads.

 

Like you I have been pondering on what frame to hang the etches on, especially with the 'cut ins' to the sides in front of the duckets on both coaches. Also there will be some nifty bending required as it also goes from a tumblehome to flat sides at the same time!

 

I will be watching your progress with interest. Best of luck!

 

Tony

Cheers Tony. I suspect that if I actually do this it will be two green coaches with the Set Number on the ends. Orher resemblances may well be minimal!!!!!

The side profile is given by the end shapes thank goodness; bodge it and hope for the best with that I think!

Do you happen to know what the other bits are in/on the right hand end of that bottom etch? Is it the steps do you think?

Thanks for the Weddel info.  At £147 + postage I might pass on that.

P

Edited by Mallard60022
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Phil,

 

The parts at the the very right end of the bottom etch are the sides of the duckets, with tabs to solder onto the body sides if I have understood your 

 

Sounds like we might be helping each other on this build! I will have a look through my borrowed copy of Weddell and see if there is any useful info that is not in the King books apart from drawings.

 

Unfortunately my progress has been halted for the moment as have been trying to finish a self-build garage and have two lots of locos to repair for others before I can do something for myself!

 

Tony

 

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Thanks to a 'friend' I have access to the King pages. So helpful to see those pictures, and ther diagrams.

12 hours ago, 145 Squadron said:

Phil,

 

The parts at the the very right end of the bottom etch are the sides of the duckets, with tabs to solder onto the body sides if I have understood your 

Sounds like we might be helping each other on this build! I will have a look through my borrowed copy of Weddell and see if there is any useful info that is not in the King books apart from drawings.

Unfortunately my progress has been halted for the moment as have been trying to finish a self-build garage and have two lots of locos to repair for others before I can do something for myself!

Tony

 

 Thanks Tony, I see what they are now having seen the pics of the actual beasts.

P

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  • 2 weeks later...

According to Weddell the PP sets all had 9' Ashford type bogies, which are available from 247 developments (ref C521) to order.

 

Also from the same source the brake composite vehicles for these sets could be either left or right handed (sets 382/4 LH, 381/3/5 RH). Not sure whether this means the etched sides will only suit one configuration for this coach and therefore limit which sets can be constructed.

 

I have looked at the roof profile and it seems the profile of the ex-Kirk Maunsells is fairly close but needs to be a bit more rounded so as i have a couple spare I might use those. At least they already have the rainstrips moulded.

 

Regarding the chassis I think I will try and scratch build in Plasticard as it seems a bit of a strange beast; I don't have any Roxey parts to hand unfortunately.

 

This is not going to be an easy build (probably why I have not seen many model examples).

 

Still not started yet (apart from this research due to daily life getting in the way!

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Only the 4 compartment Ironclad BTKs were handed.  The 6 compartment BTKs and BCKs, and their pull-push derivatives all had left hand corridors. 

 

My set has Dart Castings (ex MJT) aluminium roofs which fit the Phoenix ends almost perfectly,

 

Chris KT

 

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Chris,

 

How did you manage the turn-ins at the ends before the duckets? The body shape from tumblehome to recessed flat sides for the doors seems quite complex and I am pondering how to bend (and reinforce) the etched sides to this profile.

 

Any pictures of your set?

 

Thanks

 

Tony

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  • 2 weeks later...

I hope Mallard60022 does not think I am taking over his thread but he did ask to share others experience of making these sets.

 

At the weekend I unpacked the bogies I had previously bought from 247 Developments, having lain in my 'to do' pile for about 10 years.

 

DSCF3149.JPG.c96d5329b635eacc10f766483ca4d5af.JPG

 

You can see from the picture above that there are three bogie centre castings of one type (correct) and one for something else with a shorter wheelbase! I think I am a bit to late to ask for a replacement (the business has changed hands in the meantime) so will have to come up with a method of either altering the casting to fit or making a replacement.

 

Not a good start.

 

Tony  

 

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  • 2 weeks later...

I was hoping that perhaps others were looking at their kits for these vehicles so that we could share experiences of the construction of these vehicles.

 

My etches seem to be the same as Mallard's above (although mine were obtained from 247 Developments as then was rather than Bill Bedford).

 

Regarding the problem with the bogie mentioned in my last post I managed to solder some white metal fillets to the errant stretcher to make the correct length; a bit of filing resulted in a set of bogies. The only other modification was to fit brass top hat bearings, which necessitated having to shorten the axles on the Romford wheelsets.

 

DSCF3150.JPG.50a15c90095692c3c3f069206d8abbf7.JPG

 

These are Ashford 9' "VS" bogies, with a standard SR coach bogie next for comparison.

 

Having a set of bogies I then considered how to construct the chassis; my usual practice is to construct the sides, ends and roof as one unit to fix in some fashion to a separate chassis to facilitate fitting an interior. In the end I could not find anything suitable in my spares box so decided to make the chassis from Plasitcard. A composite block 1.75mm was measured out, basic side frames and bogie stretchers glued up and left to set.

 

DSCF3153.JPG.7a730702d66579273d4ee633b489163d.JPG

 

I did not add any detail at this stage as I knew I would need to fettle the basic shape to fit the bodysides when assembled; in particular I was not sure about the 'cut in' where the body narrows between the compartments and the duckets.

 

Next stage was to add the basic details to the coach sides; droplight frames were soldered onto the sides (there are 32 frames on the etch, but the sides required 34!) plus the ventilators (Phoenix castings - very nice). I also used Evo Stick to glue a strip of Plasticard to the inside of the sides at the top to have something substantial to glue the roof to later. For the roof I have used a couple of Kirk Maunsell roofs (spares box again) which are nearly the right curvature, cut to length.

 

I have never soldered a brass kit together before so the next step required a deep breath! The tumblehome on these coaches is complex as the sides also bend inwards after the end of the compartments to aid visibility to the end duckets which are the full bodyside width, although a different profile. The soldering was assisted with a selection of sailors language but the one coach so far seems reasonably square and solid which will be further reinforced once the roof is attached - it is only placed in the photo below.

 

DSCF3154.JPG.dd032784ad6cffd06c1f1ab95cb9102f.JPG

 

I think I will leave it a while before I attempt soldering the other coach.....

 

Tony

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Greetings Tony dude. Post away. Your notes have already been most helpful. Love the Plassi UF idea, as that can be hacked for the narrow bit.

I have two Worsley Works 57' UF's but have since noted I could have used Comet's product; never mind as Worsley have also sent me their jolly fine SR Directors' Saloon as at the Bluebell.

That is going to be fun, however I have some guidance from Bluebell Model Railway (this Parish). I shall see if those Bogies are still available from somewhere otherwise I shall busk those; there are some 9' LMS ones that look similar I am told.

Phil

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