GW loco coal (not ballast) wagons at Castle Bromwich (MR)

[Compound2632]

W.L. Good was out with his camera at Castle Bromwich station on 3 June 1925, photographing LMS Midland Division expresses. In the background of several shots there is a line of GW ballast hoppers, of two different types, best seen in this photograph on Mike Musson's Warwickshire Railways website. How to account from the presence of GW P/W wagons off GW metals? 

Edited October 5, 2020 by Compound2632

[ikcdab]

I suppose that you can't expect a railway co to have sources of all their raw materials in their territory. It might be that the GWR sourced ballast from a location on another railway. Therefore they might have sent their wagons away to collect it. This is all guesswork.

Ian

[Compound2632]

8 minutes ago, ikcdab said:

I suppose that you can't expect a railway co to have sources of all their raw materials in their territory. It might be that the GWR sourced ballast from a location on another railway. Therefore they might have sent their wagons away to collect it. This is all guesswork.

Ian

 

Well, let's put the question another way: what quarries was the GW using for ballast in the 20s?

[Western Star]

Stephen, @Compound2632

 

If you start from the premise that the photo shows two designs of ballast hopper wagons...  then you have to accept that the date is not correct for all of the low capacity P7 ballast wagons were modified pre-WW1 by adding an extra "layer" of platework around the top of the hopper (GWR Wagons, Tourret, chapter for diagram P refers).

 

If you start from the premise that the date is correct....  then you have to accept that the photo is not likely to be showing PW ballast hoppers.  GWR Wagons, Tourret, chapter for diagram N informs us that the GWR built two designs of coal hopper wagons and that there was a similarity in design between the 'N' hoppers for coal and the 'P' hoppers for ballast.  Crucial to the analysis of the scene is that (a) the two designs of 'N' hopper had different heights for the hopper and (b) unlike the 'P' hoppers the GWR did not modify the height of the early 'N' hoppers to be similar to the height of the later 'N' hoppers...  hence the two designs of 'N' hopper could be seen together at the date of the photo.

 

An interesting question - which colliery was providing the coal for those wagons?

 

regards, Graham

Edited October 5, 2020 by Western Star

[ikcdab]

What is the text between the G and W in the picture? 

[Compound2632]

Graham, @Western Star - the date is, I think, secure. Not having access to Atkins at present (the copy I consult belongs to a fellow club member and, of course, we've not been meeting) I hadn't been able to check diagrams so I was leaping to conclusions. On closer inspection, there's what looks like a rectangular-bodied iron/steel wagon next in line - G visible in the loop of the engine's vac pipe. This photo confirms that it is a loco coal wagon - the word LOCO is clear - and next to it is a wood-bodied mineral wagon, also I think Great Western - a G is just visible - a hired wagon? So if the hoppers are loco coal wagons (N series diagrams), to answer @ikcdab, I suggest the wording between the G and W is LOCO COAL or LOCO DEPT? What would be really interesting would be to know what the writing on the LH end of each wagon says.

 

I've changed the topic title!

[corneliuslundie]

The hopper coal wagons were built for specific purposes, such as delivering coal to GWR gas works, and not for loco coal. There is an illustration dated 1938 in Atkins et al of such a wagon branded EMPTY to Markham Colliery, Staveley. LOADED to Swindon Gas Works. Most coal from South Wales would not be suitable for such purposes. So were there gas coal collieries within striking distance of Castle Bromwich? The Cannock Chase coalfield comes to mind.

Jonathan

[corneliuslundie]

Atkins makes the point that  LOCO on these wagons meant Loco Dept, not loco coal. The wagon I referred to above had LOCO on the side.

Jonathan

[Compound2632]

Jonathan @corneliuslundie the location and the position of the wagons is suggestive of them being on their way to/from the Cannock Chase coalfield via the Midland's Sutton Park line. I'm not aware of Cannock Chase producing gas coal, which I associate more with the East Midlands / South Yorkshire coalfield. On the other hand, one of the City of Birmingham Gas Deptartment's five gasworks, Adderley Street, was supplied only by canal, which suggests the coal hadn't come very far - although north Staffordshire is a possibility. If the coal is from Cannock Chase, there was a more direct route onto GW metals, via Dudley. Another possiblility is the North Warwickshire coalfield; again, I'm not aware of that producing gas coal.

 

Keith Turton article on Warwickshire Railways, covering sources of coal for the City of Birmingham Gas Dept.

Edited October 5, 2020 by Compound2632

[corneliuslundie]

Cannock was only a guess from the place where the wagon was photographed. I don't know much about collieries outside South Wales. Since Castle Bromwich does not seem to have had any local collieries, as far as I can see, presumably it was a collecting point for wagons for onward transmission, in this case to the GWR. So presumably it came loaded from the east (or was going there empty). But probably not very far east.

Jonathan

[Compound2632]

5 minutes ago, corneliuslundie said:

Cannock was only a guess from the place where the wagon was photographed. I don't know much about collieries outside South Wales. Since Castle Bromwich does not seem to have had any local collieries, as far as I can see, presumably it was a collecting point for wagons for onward transmission, in this case to the GWR. So presumably it came loaded from the east (or was going there empty). But probably not very far east.

Jonathan

 

The point of transfer between the LMS Midland Division and the GW would usually be Bordesley. If the source of the gas coal isn't Cannock Chase, it's just possible the wagons are being worked to the Great Western via the Sutton Park line, Walsall, and Dudley. Where was the Great Western's gas works? Castle Bromwich is at the western end of the triangular junction made by the Sutton Park line with the Derby - Birmingham main line. I think the wagons are standing on the further of two sidings shown in this map. 

[corneliuslundie]

Swindon of course but also at Stafford Road, Wolverhampton (see http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/features/stafford_road_works/index.shtml).  That might make sense.

Jonathan

[Paul H Vigor]

Just a thought: These are Loco Department wagons? What other materials were required to support a loco shed? How were consignments of 'damp' locomotive sand transported by the GWR? I believe Sand Vans were used to store dried sand?

[Paul H Vigor]

4 minutes ago, Paul H Vigor said:

Just a thought: These are Loco Department wagons? What other materials were required to support a loco shed? How were consignments of 'damp' locomotive sand transported by the GWR? I believe Sand Vans were used to store dried sand?

"In the inter war years the Midland Sand and Gravel Company operated a mine on what is now the Norman Chamberlain Playing Fields, off Packington Avenue (Shard End, near Castle Bromwich)."

[The Stationmaster]

16 hours ago, corneliuslundie said:

Swindon of course but also at Stafford Road, Wolverhampton (see http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/features/stafford_road_works/index.shtml).  That might make sense.

Jonathan

Did Stafford Road gas works have provision for hopper discharge of coal?  Swindon gas works definitely did.   

 

I can't think offhand of any GW running sheds whuch had proc vuision for hopper discharge of anything so if sand came in hopper wagons it might well have gone to a works for discharge  (if they had such a facility?) before being loaded forward in flat bottomed wagons).  However any sand delivered in an open wagon would have obviously stood a reasonable chance of getting very wet which would take much longer to dry out.

[Compound2632]

16 hours ago, Paul H Vigor said:

"In the inter war years the Midland Sand and Gravel Company operated a mine on what is now the Norman Chamberlain Playing Fields, off Packington Avenue (Shard End, near Castle Bromwich)."

 

Hum. No evidence on the 1938 OS 25" map though the modern lake is a big clue. A bit far from the railway - if anything, nearer to Lea Hall on the London & Birmingham.

[Gordon A]

Sand is a low volume high weight material, so would it not have been carried in special wagons?

[Western Star]

1 hour ago, The Stationmaster said:

... any sand delivered in an open wagon would have obviously stood a reasonable chance of getting very wet which would take much longer to dry out.

Which begs the question...  would sheds with a sand furnace have bagged sand for the (smaller) locations which did not have similar facilities?

[Compound2632]

53 minutes ago, Gordon A said:

Sand is a low volume high weight material, so would it not have been carried in special wagons?

 

It's also a low value material, so I suspect not, though I think I've seen examples of wagons branded "sand" - but generally clapped-out ordinary low-sided wagons. A load of sand could be sheeted, just as lime was.

[TheSignalEngineer]

Most of the coal purchased by Birmingham Corporation for their gas and electricity departments came from the collieries of North Derbyshire, Nottinghamshire and South Yorkshire. A smaller amount came from North Staffordshire. I don't think they had regular contracts for other areas such as North Warwickshire but did apparently buy from these on the Spot Market at times when more was needed. 

23 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

Castle Bromwich is at the western end of the triangular junction made by the Sutton Park line with the Derby - Birmingham main line. I think the wagons are standing on the further of two sidings shown in this map. 

Agreed, there were two refuge sidings alongside the station on the Up side. The wagons may possibly have been stabled there awaiting instructions as to which colliery they were bound for.

[Compound2632]

42 minutes ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

Most of the coal purchased by Birmingham Corporation for their gas and electricity departments came from the collieries of North Derbyshire, Nottinghamshire and South Yorkshire. A smaller amount came from North Staffordshire. I don't think they had regular contracts for other areas such as North Warwickshire but did apparently buy from these on the Spot Market at times when more was needed. 

 

As detailed in Keith Turton's article mentioned above.

 

42 minutes ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

Agreed, there were two refuge sidings alongside the station on the Up side. The wagons may possibly have been stabled there awaiting instructions as to which colliery they were bound for.

 

I'm fairly sure the wagons would have left their point of origin on the Great Western already ticketed up for their destination - no TOPS in those days! However, if they had come from Bordesley as part of a trip working and were destined for the Sutton Park line, I would have expected them to be worked through to the sidings at Water Orton. Perhaps those sidings were already full. 

Edited October 6, 2020 by Compound2632

[TheSignalEngineer]

I think Atkins et al may have some of the answers in a picture of an N25 hopper which bears the folowing legend:-

 

'EMPTY to Markham Colliery, Staveley. LOADED to G.W. Gas Works Swindon via Bordesley Junction'

 

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

However, if they had come from Bordesley as part of a trip working and were destined for the Sutton Park line, I would have expected them to be worked through to the sidings at Water Orton. Perhaps those sidings were already full. 

 

Transfer traffic via Bordesley Junction was worked to Washwood Heath by LMS locos. Even as late as 1959 there were 5 locos allocated to this work running about 20 round trips per day. I would think the reason for being at Castle Bromwich could be that there wasn't anywhere to put them at Washwood Heath and they were waiting to join the procession of Birmingham Corporation wagons which ran to Markham.

 

[The Stationmaster]

13 hours ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

 

Agreed, there were two refuge sidings alongside the station on the Up side. The wagons may possibly have been stabled there awaiting instructions as to which colliery they were bound for.

Either that or just as likely held because they couldn't be accommodated at the colliery for whatever reason (congestion, plant breakdown, or some other stoppage).

 

12 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I'm fairly sure the wagons would have left their point of origin on the Great Western already ticketed up for their destination - no TOPS in those days! However, if they had come from Bordesley as part of a trip working and were destined for the Sutton Park line, I would have expected them to be worked through to the sidings at Water Orton. Perhaps those sidings were already full. 

TOPS wouldn't make any difference at all - all it would tell folk is where the wagon was going - just as a wagon label or painted working detail would have done.   The only extra thing TOPS could quickly tell you was how long (up to 99 days) the wagons had been in that siding

[Compound2632]

11 hours ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

I think Atkins et al may have some of the answers in a picture of an N25 hopper which bears the folowing legend:-

 

'EMPTY to Markham Colliery, Staveley. LOADED to G.W. Gas Works Swindon via Bordesley Junction'

 

 

Transfer traffic via Bordesley Junction was worked to Washwood Heath by LMS locos. Even as late as 1959 there were 5 locos allocated to this work running about 20 round trips per day. I would think the reason for being at Castle Bromwich could be that there wasn't anywhere to put them at Washwood Heath and they were waiting to join the procession of Birmingham Corporation wagons which ran to Markham.

 

 

This sounds the most convincing explanation. I'm familiar with the Bordesley trips from Terry Essery's Saltley Firing Days, of course.

 

Now, does anyone know when this traffic started? I'm thinking in terms of my early Edwardian North Birmingham modelling...

 

The rectangular-bodied steel wagon is, I presume, an N6, built with low sides but extended upwards. I wonder how hard that is from the Coopercraft N13, which I have from my mis-spent youth but it's a whisker too late for my target modelling period. I've also been looking at the early 4-plank wooden wagons, N7.

Edited October 7, 2020 by Compound2632

[Penrhos1920]

Dave Geen does a kit for N6.  You might find them on your favourite auction site!